Raiding 101

[xxHazexx]

it's All Me. Every Time.

Hahaha

[Seliana]

Hahaha

You know its true, just admit it.

Our raids succeed because I logged in.

[FluffyCalico]

The main issue with your raiding 101 list is that is not the default raiding rules...that is YOUR raiding rules. Maybe 1 out of 100 raid has the rules you listed all in place. The only one that is common to almost every group is don't sell raid loot.

[Lleren]

Just figured i would give players the run down on how my raids work or others of significance. Scrolls: Generally if a scroll drops you want to pick it up as quickly as possible to avoid it "poof"-ing, So when you pick up a scroll you let the party know what scroll and who has it and roll on it at the end of the raid and/or quest. Looting Epic Raid Chests: Loot rules should ALWAYS apply for shards. I will elaborate, before an epic raid chest is opened everyone needs to specify who's rolling for which character, 1 and only 1 character. To avoid any confrontational issues an greed. 1 more thing before i head off to work. NEVER sell raid loot! This is bad etiquette here in ddo at least on cannith to be specific, there we have it, you now know the rules of raiding 101 and are welcome to any of my raids by abiding by these rules

Do these rules apply to any "Templar" led Raids?
Are your Guild's Raids generally marked as "Templar" Or should I just look for the character names in your sig?

I'm pretty sure all the epic bits I want are wanted by most/all of my characters, so specifying one isn't a problem.

[xxHazexx]

I wouldn't have posted them if the guild and myself did not follow these rules. That would be a bit ironic.

[bryanmeerkat]

The problem with taking raid loot/scrolls just to sell them is that the people who are in the raid or epic with you, the people who worked hard to get that item deserve some type of reward for their efforts. Thanks to the way loot is created and distributed in DDO only one person gets the full reward rather then multiple people getting equal shares for their effort. When you take an item away from someone who needs it for their build just to sell it off for profit you are effectively saying their work, time, and effort was meaningless because the dice simply rolled in your favor again. It means all the people in your raid who worked hard to get that item, only ended up working hard so someone else they didn't even know and who wasn't even there could have it instead.

See the logic in this is so horribly horribly flawed it makes me die inside every time i see it .

Regarding unbound items :If everyone just kept the loot they picked up and trade it as and when they pleased the people who do the most raids will get the most items . Its that simple .

Lets say we have a Fighter Cleric in the party named bob
A Cleric called Jim
A Fighter called dave

A fighter item drops , fighter and fighter cleric are allowed to roll.
A cleric item drops , cleric and fighter cleric are allowed to roll .

Why is the fighter cleric allowed dibs on both items effectively doubling his chances of winning an item .

Or alternatively you can tell him hes not allowed to roll on fighter items or the cleric item unless the real fighter dosent want it . Hardly seems fair seeing as though its his toon and he should at least have a chance at it .

So he either gets 0 rolls or 2 rolls on the two hypothetical drops , depending on how well he argues his case .

You also are grouped with Nigel ( nigel unfortunatly is a nob head , and is rolling on scrolls that he already has in his back pack to just so he can sell em, you dont know this though and you will never find out as they will be neatly traded off with his guildies or sold through the AH )

Colin Complesionist is also in the party and sees no reason why he shouldnt roll on everything he may possibly need at some point in the future .

Nice guy eddie is there too , he dosent want to cause a fuss so will only roll on stuff he really needs .

So bob , jim , dave , colin , nigel and eddy set out on 6 quests

Quest 1 , an item of awesome fighting drops bob dave colin and nigel roll .

Quest 2 an item of badass cleric drops bob , jim ,dave , colin and nigel roll .

Quest 3 an item of allround coolness drops , everyone rolls except nice guy eddie as he dosent want it that badly .

quest 4 an item of fighter awesome drops bob dave colin and nigel roll .

quest 5 an item of deadly wizarding drops colin ,dave , nigel and eddie roll ( he actually really wants this item )

quest 6 an item of badass cleric drops bob , jim ,dave , colin and nigel roll .

Ok you may or may not let some of these people rol on some of these items , you may ignore there rolls and cause friction and discomfort in the party , the group may fall apart after the first epic scroll drop .

But at the end of the day some people have had more rolls of the dice than others , even though they have all put in the same time to the quests . ( not effort nigel has mostly piked and bob has a suboptimal build so has had to try really to make up for this , eddie may have been stoned )

Now if everyone in the quest had simply rolled on anything sellable , they would each have on average 1 item (after trading )

Can you say under your "fairer" system where you can only roll on something you need that would be the case ?

[loki_3369]

The main issue with your raiding 101 list is that is not the default raiding rules...that is YOUR raiding rules. Maybe 1 out of 100 raid has the rules you listed all in place. The only one that is common to almost every group is don't sell raid loot.

Erm... I know Cannith is a lolserver to you vets, but about 90/100 runs here have similar rules regarding loot.

[Seliana]

See the logic in this is so horribly horribly flawed it makes me die inside every time i see it .

Regarding unbound items :If everyone just kept the loot they picked up and trade it as and when they pleased the people who do the most raids will get the most items . Its that simple .

Lets say we have a Fighter Cleric in the party named bob
A Cleric called Jim
A Fighter called dave

A fighter item drops , fighter and fighter cleric are allowed to roll.
A cleric item drops , cleric and fighter cleric are allowed to roll .

Why is the fighter cleric allowed dibs on both items effectively doubling his chances of winning an item .

Or alternatively you can tell him hes not allowed to roll on fighter items or the cleric item unless the real fighter dosent want it . Hardly seems fair seeing as though its his toon and he should at least have a chance at it .

So he either gets 0 rolls or 2 rolls on the two hypothetical drops , depending on how well he argues his case .

You also are grouped with Nigel ( nigel unfortunatly is a nob head , and is rolling on scrolls that he already has in his back pack to just so he can sell em, you dont know this though and you will never find out as they will be neatly traded off with his guildies or sold through the AH )

Colin Complesionist is also in the party and sees no reason why he shouldnt roll on everything he may possibly need at some point in the future .

Nice guy eddie is there too , he dosent want to cause a fuss so will only roll on stuff he really needs .

So bob , jim , dave , colin , nigel and eddy set out on 6 quests

Quest 1 , an item of awesome fighting drops bob dave colin and nigel roll .

Quest 2 an item of badass cleric drops bob , jim ,dave , colin and nigel roll .

Quest 3 an item of allround coolness drops , everyone rolls except nice guy eddie as he dosent want it that badly .

quest 4 an item of fighter awesome drops bob dave colin and nigel roll .

quest 5 an item of deadly wizarding drops colin ,dave , nigel and eddie roll ( he actually really wants this item )

quest 6 an item of badass cleric drops bob , jim ,dave , colin and nigel roll .

Ok you may or may not let some of these people rol on some of these items , you may ignore there rolls and cause friction and discomfort in the party , the group may fall apart after the first epic scroll drop .

But at the end of the day some people have had more rolls of the dice than others , even though they have all put in the same time to the quests . ( not effort nigel has mostly piked and bob has a suboptimal build so has had to try really to make up for this , eddie may have been stoned )

Now if everyone in the quest had simply rolled on anything sellable , they would each have on average 1 item (after trading )

Can you say under your "fairer" system where you can only roll on something you need that would be the case ?

Wow.

Where do I even begin with this?

Lets pretend for a moment that the exact same group of people is going to run 6 raids in a row, and lets pretend that its a varied pack of players meaning a somewhat even class balance... while we're at it lets also pretend that you can spell. Lets also keep in mind the fact that DDO does not distribute loot evenly or even fairly and everything is up to random chance if left to Turbines intentions. In your system of random loot distribution the ranger would end up with a Spectacles of Spirit Sight, the wizard would have a Marilith Chain, the barbarian would get a Souleater, and the acrobat rogue would now own a Stonemeld Plate Armor. You don't see the problem with that?

What we are doing is taking the complete randomness out of DDO's loot system. With our methods the wizard in the party who doesn't have any alternate characters doesn't end up walking around with an Epic Sword of Shadows, the Fighter with no SP bar doesn't end up taking the Scroll of the Spellstoring ring when he clearly just wants to sell it off while the party sorcerer sits there and watches in horror. In our system the party melee based favored soul isn't trying to take the Quiver of Alacrity, or roll on the Shard of the Shatterbow. If you leave everything up for grabs and let every person roll on every item then everyone will end up with practically nothing to show for their hard work. The whole scroll rolling system that we use is to ensure that people who work for an item end up being rewarded with those items, and people who pike or get greedy don't get rewarded for their bad behavior.

Our guild states quite clearly that you are allowed to roll for a single classes items before we pop an epic chest, and it doesn't even have to be the class that your currently on. If you are on your fighter and you say your rolling for your wizard and wizard based loot drops then great, you get to roll for all the wizard gear you want that's bound to account even if your logged into a Barbarian. However, you don't get to roll for the Epic Seal of the Chaosblade, then Epic Shard of the Greenblade, then the Scroll of the Shining crest of St Markus, followed by the Thornlord bow after pulling your Torc out of the chest.

Some players are going to get more rolls then others because that's the nature of class based items dropping in a raid. It doesn't make it any less fair then randomly assigning everything to everyone because it simply means when a different item drops later a different set of people will get more rolls then the first group.

Turbine is in the business of making money. The more they can prolong the time it takes to grind out decent gear, the more money they inevitably make. Why would you want to extend the grind any further then it needs to be? It just makes trying to get gear into a repeated disappointment. It makes everyone's experience less rewarding then it rightfully should be.

[gara-xxx]

I don't raid much on Cannith these days, but just thought I'd ask for clarification.

My interpretation:



What happens if no one named an item that actually drops? Does the original puller get to keep it, or does it become "Leader Loot" to be given away as they see fit?

What happens when an arcane claims the Sword of Shadows? Or when the FvS claims the Kundarak Boots? Or the Barbarian is only running the DQ for the Torc? Or the Cleric wants the Jidz-Tet'ka? Does the entire party get to vote whether they can claim it if it drops, or does the leader alone get to decide?

Seems like a lot to keep track of - I prefer to just let everyone take what drops for them, and if they don't want it to announce their particular method for giving it away... even if they want to sell it.

yea,whoever gets something gets to keep it (I mean IT IS his ),if he doesnt he can pass it to a friend or put it on roll ,but selling?,weak dudes

[gara-xxx]

... yes I do have a standing offer for one piece of raid loot. I've always sent a tell offering the person who pulls a shard of the sword of shadow 10 red scales for it. I don't consider it that wrong, essentially i'm trading them something that came from the chest, for something in the chest.

10 scales for shard of SOS...so noth worth it

[bryanmeerkat]

Wow.

Where do I even begin with this?

Lets pretend for a moment that the exact same group of people is going to run 6 raids in a row, and lets pretend that its a varied pack of players meaning a somewhat even class balance... while we're at it lets also pretend that you can spell. Lets also keep in mind the fact that DDO does not distribute loot evenly or even fairly and everything is up to random chance if left to Turbines intentions. In your system of random loot distribution the ranger would end up with a Spectacles of Spirit Sight, the wizard would have a Marilith Chain, the barbarian would get a Souleater, and the acrobat rogue would now own a Stonemeld Plate Armor. You don't see the problem with that?

What we are doing is taking the complete randomness out of DDO's loot system. With our methods the wizard in the party who doesn't have any alternate characters doesn't end up walking around with an Epic Sword of Shadows, the Fighter with no SP bar doesn't end up taking the Scroll of the Spellstoring ring when he clearly just wants to sell it off while the party sorcerer sits there and watches in horror. In our system the party melee based favored soul isn't trying to take the Quiver of Alacrity, or roll on the Shard of the Shatterbow. If you leave everything up for grabs and let every person roll on every item then everyone will end up with practically nothing to show for their hard work. The whole scroll rolling system that we use is to ensure that people who work for an item end up being rewarded with those items, and people who pike or get greedy don't get rewarded for their bad behavior.

Our guild states quite clearly that you are allowed to roll for a single classes items before we pop an epic chest, and it doesn't even have to be the class that your currently on. If you are on your fighter and you say your rolling for your wizard and wizard based loot drops then great, you get to roll for all the wizard gear you want that's bound to account even if your logged into a Barbarian. However, you don't get to roll for the Epic Seal of the Chaosblade, then Epic Shard of the Greenblade, then the Scroll of the Shining crest of St Markus, followed by the Thornlord bow after pulling your Torc out of the chest.

Some players are going to get more rolls then others because that's the nature of class based items dropping in a raid. It doesn't make it any less fair then randomly assigning everything to everyone because it simply means when a different item drops later a different set of people will get more rolls then the first group.

Turbine is in the business of making money. The more they can prolong the time it takes to grind out decent gear, the more money they inevitably make. Why would you want to extend the grind any further then it needs to be? It just makes trying to get gear into a repeated disappointment. It makes everyone's experience less rewarding then it rightfully should be.

OOh hit be where it hurts my spelling skills , ouch .

And at least I can read and not convenintly skim over the parts of my argument that makes this valid . ( specifically about the item being unbound )
People are allowed to trade stuff that isnt bound to char/acount and that was the type of item i was specifically talking about .

So unless the wiz is a moron hes going to trade that marilith chain scroll for something he can use .
The more quests you do the more tradeable items you get , the more tradeable items you get , the more items you can use you can get .
And there you go completing the most quests get you the most cookies ( adjusting only for the randomness of some people winning every random allocation and others getting nothing , this will over time though average out )

[aurum1]

Really nothing to debate. They have posted their raid rules.
If you agree to them - run raids with them.
If you don't - then don't.
I don't prefer it, but am fine with it and have run some raids with guilds that do it this way. Honestly I think it all washes out in the end. The people who raid will get their loot one way or another.

[bryanmeerkat]

Really nothing to debate. They have posted their raid rules.
If you agree to them - run raids with them.
If you don't - then don't.
I don't prefer it, but am fine with it and have run some raids with guilds that do it this way. Honestly I think it all washes out in the end. The people who raid will get their loot one way or another.

This is true as well and as my charachter is one that benefits from the need/greed system if people want to run it that way I am fine as its there raid . It just amazes me how many people asume that what they are doing is legitimatly the fairest .
It stems from a lot of the standard practices from other games where nearly all loot of consequence was bind to charachter and of very little value to people who arent suitable to use it . A lot of people just cant see through these old prejudices to random distribution of non bound items as most people are not used to the logic of winning to trade .

[pHo3nix]

Wow.

Where do I even begin with this?

Lets pretend for a moment that the exact same group of people is going to run 6 raids in a row, and lets pretend that its a varied pack of players meaning a somewhat even class balance... while we're at it lets also pretend that you can spell. Lets also keep in mind the fact that DDO does not distribute loot evenly or even fairly and everything is up to random chance if left to Turbines intentions. In your system of random loot distribution the ranger would end up with a Spectacles of Spirit Sight, the wizard would have a Marilith Chain, the barbarian would get a Souleater, and the acrobat rogue would now own a Stonemeld Plate Armor. You don't see the problem with that?

No, i don't see any problem with that. Scrolls are not bound, so the wizard can trade the scroll of the marilith for another scroll he needs. Seals and shards are bta, so if i got the seal of the SoS with my wizard i can take it for my fighter, i don't see why i shouldn't loot it.

I always put up for rolls btc items i don't need, but considering there's the tr option, i wouldn't have any problem if a barb loot the torc if he's going to tr in a class that needs it.

[herzkos]

haven't raided on cannith in a while so forgive my ignorance of the guild templar.
I'm sure that they are amazingly good.
anyway, the only problem that I see at all with the thread (and or rules posted) is that
the OP neglected to mention that they are his guild's rules in the title and instead
it seems that he/she is trying to set rules for everyone on cannith if not DDO overall.
that's probably where most of the negativity in the thread is coming from anyway.

[xxHazexx]

haven't raided on cannith in a while so forgive my ignorance of the guild templar.
I'm sure that they are amazingly good.
anyway, the only problem that I see at all with the thread (and or rules posted) is that
the OP neglected to mention that they are his guild's rules in the title and instead
it seems that he/she is trying to set rules for everyone on cannith if not DDO overall.
that's probably where most of the negativity in the thread is coming from anyway.

cookie for you +1