PLEASE PLEASE make quarterstaffs finessable

[Drfirewater79]

Only a small fraction of monks are Dex based

Are you serious .... monks have less hps then most other classes and the main feature of the monk is the ability to add more stat power to AC in return for loss of armor choices.

Do you seriously believe that most monks have **** ac? I have 2 points off of max ac possible on a monk and hit 74 self buffed with no tring ... I cannot even see why people like str monks .. i have seen crits on a str monk they are hitting on average what 13 points physical 26 more on a crit?
with an AC 74 self buffed i can solo amarath on hard (prolly could do elite but dont really want to try takes up to much consumables) With all the pots and group buffs i can hit 90 ac (not including store bought pots which i personally consider cheating so i don't)...
While i definately see how str monks are common amongst min maxers .. they are far from the best build for monks who enjoy the soloability .. cause having no AC and getting hit every time for 100 points vs getting hit every third time is a drastic difference.

I would seriously doubt that there are FEW dex based monks ...

aside from that ... quarterstaffs being finessable helps all finesse builds ... not just monks ... especially finesse AC builds that take a few levels of monk for the bonus feats and evasion.

Again Finesse Quarter staffs are not for DPS they are for stat damaging and crowd control at the most.

[Drfirewater79]

I suppose IF those two weapons just had to be used by finesse monks they should have finesse added as a weapon property. Of course being an evil DM I would make this a non retroactive change. MAHWAHAWAWAHAHA WAWAHahAHAH

If they added a retroactive change i would be fine with that .. i still havent gotten a new dreamspitter since the good attribute was added to it ..

i would have suggested a finesse stone of change ritual cept all the idiots who hate the quarterstaff idea would be lived when my ac build ranger was finessing a greataxe lol.

This is why the quarterstaff makes sense .. its not overpowering .. its not breaking with flavor or RP .... its not tipping the dps scale in favor of any specific class or build type... its much like the pali's getting intimidate skill ... its just something that makes more sense in DDO then in DnD pnp ... and it opens up more character options ...which lets face it .. is DDOs biggest draw in comparison to other games... if not for the character building options this game wouldnt be all that attractive outside of its namesake.

[Geonis]

No. I would much rather they fix the requirements for TA1 and 2, and fix Showtime! than a half-assed fix by making q-staffs finessable.

[thekamurai]

No. I would much rather they fix the requirements for TA1 and 2, and fix Showtime! than a half-assed fix by making q-staffs finessable.

This, please. Showtime is so broken it's not even funny.

Just my 2 cp but I have a Drow Dex Thief Acro and a Horc Str Thief Acro, both are generally viable but the Str based Horc Acro far out does the drow in damage, general awesome-sauceness and is much more fun style to play.

It seems like a lot of people want different things from staffs, pnp allowed twf and thf with staffs, but that simply could not be done (and worked in only one method during any given round).

Just my opinion but with the implementation of the weapon and its behaviour, it is clearly intended to be a thf weapon so finesse just seems like a trip down the wrong road. The devs have tried to address this with some nice dex q-staffs for those that want to play that style, but it would seem that is a compromise to appease a niche audience.

Maybe we just need kaorti resin q-staffs.....j/k

[Jaid314]

If they added a retroactive change i would be fine with that .. i still havent gotten a new dreamspitter since the good attribute was added to it ..

i would have suggested a finesse stone of change ritual cept all the idiots who hate the quarterstaff idea would be lived when my ac build ranger was finessing a greataxe lol.

This is why the quarterstaff makes sense .. its not overpowering .. its not breaking with flavor or RP .... its not tipping the dps scale in favor of any specific class or build type... its much like the pali's getting intimidate skill ... its just something that makes more sense in DDO then in DnD pnp ... and it opens up more character options ...which lets face it .. is DDOs biggest draw in comparison to other games... if not for the character building options this game wouldnt be all that attractive outside of its namesake.

so far as i know, the finesse ability forces you to use dex to hit, no? why ruin it for the rest of us who built strength-based acrobats/monks?

invent a new weapon ability that *allows* the weapon to be finessed, *if* you have the weapon finesse feat. that way, people who want to finesse their quarterstaff get to choose to take the feat, and those of us who don't want to finesse our quarterstaff get to use strength.

[Robi3.0]

so far as i know, the finesse ability forces you to use dex to hit, no? why ruin it for the rest of us who built strength-based acrobats/monks?

invent a new weapon ability that *allows* the weapon to be finessed, *if* you have the weapon finesse feat. that way, people who want to finesse their quarterstaff get to choose to take the feat, and those of us who don't want to finesse our quarterstaff get to use strength.

I am pretty sure that finesse property works like the feat, meaning it uses str or dex which ever is higher.

If it doesn't it should.

[drac317]

man,give it a rest

[Missing_Minds]

I am pretty sure that finesse property works like the feat, meaning it uses str or dex which ever is higher.

If it doesn't it should.

It does, just doesn't happen very often and it is like a... +4 property I want to say.

[Mr_Tank]

man,give it a rest

Go little thread go. You can make it to 120 posts of nothingness.

[Vormaerin]

aside from that ... quarterstaffs being finessable helps all finesse builds ... not just monks ... especially finesse AC builds that take a few levels of monk for the bonus feats and evasion.

Again Finesse Quarter staffs are not for DPS they are for stat damaging and crowd control at the most.

Again.. you don't want quarterstaves to be finesse-enabled. You want drain on a finesse weapons. Why don't you argue for the point you actually want? Mixing in the quarterstaff angle is just going to confuse your point with irrelevancies.

The quarterstaff is a bad weapon in every version of D&D. It is only desirable in DDO because a particular modifier currently exists just on a couple of staves. The current distribution of a particular modifier is a terrible reason to radically change a weapon's characteristics.

The instant they make a life stealing simple weapon that isn't a q-staff, no one will use a q-staff again except as a suboptimal "flavor" build.

Don't build rules changes around temporary quirks of the itemization. Its a bad idea.

[Drfirewater79]

so far as i know, the finesse ability forces you to use dex to hit, no? why ruin it for the rest of us who built strength-based acrobats/monks?

invent a new weapon ability that *allows* the weapon to be finessed, *if* you have the weapon finesse feat. that way, people who want to finesse their quarterstaff get to choose to take the feat, and those of us who don't want to finesse our quarterstaff get to use strength.

That is a highly ignorant statement ... STR can ALWAYS be used to hit ... finesse allows a person to CHOOSE to use DEX instead of STR if there DEX is higher. Its all I am asking for .. I am not asking that Quarterstaffs be dex to hit ... which is what they have done in the past.

[Drfirewater79]

Again.. you don't want quarterstaves to be finesse-enabled. You want drain on a finesse weapons. Why don't you argue for the point you actually want? Mixing in the quarterstaff angle is just going to confuse your point with irrelevancies.

The quarterstaff is a bad weapon in every version of D&D. It is only desirable in DDO because a particular modifier currently exists just on a couple of staves. The current distribution of a particular modifier is a terrible reason to radically change a weapon's characteristics.

The instant they make a life stealing simple weapon that isn't a q-staff, no one will use a q-staff again except as a suboptimal "flavor" build.

Don't build rules changes around temporary quirks of the itemization. Its a bad idea.

The problem is not just the fact that its a weapon drain ... though that is the main arguement for it .... The problem is weapon options for monks are very limited and unlike any other class they are further limited making there really no options at all by the fact that quarterstaffs are not finessable.

Our options are .... Handwraps ... kamas .. quarterstaffs ... shurikens ... period.
There are no sai in the game ... and many have suggested that kukri or daggers should be made monk weapons because they dont want to add more weapons. Those of us who have been around a long time might remember that double weapons where once on the AH but never actually added to the game.

If they had plans to add new monk weapons like nunchuku or sai ... then yes the level draining effect being added to nunchuku and handwraps would make more sense then simply asking for quarterstaffs to be finessable because no intelligent monk alive takes improved crit slashing.

But the points are

a) Quarterstaffs are a monk weapon ...
b) Quarterstaffs are a blunt weapon and bludgeon crit is the only if any improved crit a monk takes
c) the only level draining weapons are STR based quarterstaffs which makes no sense be it that finesse characters are the ones who often need stat damaging to make up for dps loss.
d) Monks in general are the only class that is limited to 3 melee weapons and dex monks are directly limited to 2 ... even casters have more weapon options and they are not a melee class.

fixes for this problem

1) That use wisdom instead of str feat which replaces finesse for monks rather then take finesse at all.
2) Make quarterstaffs finessable
3) put level drain ability on handwraps
4) make more weapons monks can use that are finessable like nunchuku and sai and add level draining effects to them.

I dont have a rouge that uses quarterstaffs personally so i dont know why anyone who has a str modifier would gimp themselves that way ... if your a str monk ... you are giving up AC for DPS ... so use handwraps it does more dps ... if your a str rouge ... use pretty much anything other then a quarterstaff and your gonna do more dps i suggest dual wielding kopheshs combining decent crit range with greensteel ability and sneak attack damage is insane.

dex builds are the only ones that have any reason to use Quarterstaffs becase DPS doesnt matter as much as stat damaging. Again if level drain was added to handwraps it would be unfair to dex rouges ... if daggers kukris sickles light maces or rapiers where given life drain it would be unfair to monks.

Since they have no intention on adding new weapons the only fix that makes sense is to make quarterstaffs finessable so that both str and dex based characters can use them.

[Samiusbot]

I understand your want. But I think Vormaerin hit the nail on the head. But I don't ever see making a non-staff draining weapon happening.

Why?

It is a strong attack. So strong that they changed it from every crit to a on crit chance to proc. So it goes on one of the worst kinds of weapons.

two handed only (I would like to see this changed, 2hf mode and toggle to 2wf mode)
low base damage
small crit range
small crit multiplier

It is however simple so anyone can use it.

And yet draining weapons are so strong that people use them.

When build is made there are lots of trade offs for pluses. By going High dex and building around finesse weapons you lose some to hit with staffs. Sorry. But if my wizard with a 16 str and bab of 10 can hit a held mob you can too.

[Drfirewater79]

When build is made there are lots of trade offs for pluses. By going High dex and building around finesse weapons you lose some to hit with staffs. Sorry. But if my wizard with a 16 str and bab of 10 can hit a held mob you can too.

as always samius you miss the point entirely ...

its not mobs that are held that are the issue .. its mobs that are not held .... level drainging just like stat damage is not the method used by str builds .. str builds take the dps route ... dex builds take the support route ... stat damaging is a support role weapon not a dps weapon ..

The only time anyone misses a held mob is on a 1 ...so its not amazing feat that you can do something with a str 16 when its held .. you can hit it with a str 8 and a bab of 1 if its held.

You should read the last post where i detail the reasons why finesse is a good idea for quarterstaffs.

[Samiusbot]

You should read the last post where i detail the reasons why finesse is a good idea for quarterstaffs.

Okay. Monks don't get a lot of weapons. /cry about it. You knew that when you rolled up a monk.

Our options are .... Handwraps ... kamas .. quarterstaffs ... shurikens ... period.

No, those are the only ones you get with out some INVESTMENT With no negatives. Add Short swords and Long swords and every other weapon that you wish to use with some investment and are willing to take the penalties for useing.

Wizards for example get Club, Dagger, Crossbows, Quarterstaff, Throwing Dagger. Non of these get to the base damage that is your fists.

as always samius you miss the point entirely ...

No you are missing mine.
You chose to make a finesse build. You. Not the the game. You can change things and make your monk a Str build and be just fine. This is you wanting it all. You want to be AC/ Finesse build. Cool I hear it can be a great build. And I know your play skill makes the thing sing. But that was your call when you planed your build. Live with it.

And in epics where you are talking about wanting to use said items, as a monk I would want you to be stunning and holding mobs so if you were using a Staff to neg level they should be auto hit/critable already.

[wiglin]

Even if monk could use all the weapons mentioned in previous posts, and stay centered, handwraps would still be the superior choice. Faster attack speed and more damage. Quarterstaffs are not a very good weapon, making them finesse would lower dps output even more. Acrobat's help make up for this with 20% stacking alacrity and dex modifier adding to staff sa damage.

Lifestealing is used when the mob is held, so anyone can use the dreamspitter or equivalent staff just as good as a str based acrobat. Lifestealing is very powerful effect, and putting it on a rapier with a 15-20 crit range would be a it much.

As an acrobat user myself I would never roll a finesse staff user even if I could the dps would be sub-optimal when it matters most (beating on red names). Life stealing does not work then, you need good dps. AC is also pretty meaningless at that point because mass cures are going off every few seconds, so it does not matter if you did not get hit. Only the main tank really benefits from high ac at that point, since everyone else typically stands behind the boss.

If you want to be finesse, go with rapiers on a pure rogue where you can get a really nice crit range and 17d6 sneak attack to help make up for the lower base damage. You can still use the dreamspitter in epics because the mob will be held. If you are a monk finesse works great, just stick to your handwraps with bursting rings etc, and stun everything in site.

[Drfirewater79]

No you are missing mine.
You chose to make a finesse build. You. Not the the game. You can change things and make your monk a Str build and be just fine. This is you wanting it all. You want to be AC/ Finesse build. Cool I hear it can be a great build. And I know your play skill makes the thing sing. But that was your call when you planed your build. Live with it.

But i do not see why making quarterstaffs finessable destroys the game and makes dex builds invincable totally gamebreaking ....

why is offering finesse players more weapon options a negative thing?

its not like STR builds are limited ... and its not like AC is overpowered ... most people think AC is worthless ... and in many cases it is. AC does nothing against spells ... doesnt work in epic and often doesnt mean a thing in elite ....

I could say the same thing about Palidans though couldnt I ...

why the F do palidans get intimidate ... they could have taking levels of fighter to get it .. they could have made sacrifices ... its there choice for choosing to be a palidan they knew that when they created it. So why was the change made ?

because it doesnt break the game for anyone ... it doesnt disrupt the dps tables and it gives more build options to palidans ...

its exactly what i am suggesting for monks. So why is it that you cannot see that ... where were you when the battle against palidans having intimidate was going on? oh wait .. you where on the palidans side because you have one.

its fine to shoot down ideas that make sense and are not game altering ... but when an idea is totally ass backwards and a complete 180 from dnd books changing the value of a class entirely ... that is ok.

[Stitch78]

/signed on making q-staffs finessable.

I've read the 116 posts above and most of it is not relevant to my conclusion. Making staffs finessalbe doesn't hurt anyone at all, helps a few builds, has good synergy with the dex-theory build (particularly with Showtime) doesn't really run afoul of pnp rules. What is the argument AGAINST this? I don't get it.

All of the stuff about "real world" staves, yada yada, is malarky. No one posting here has ever swung a staff at a mephit. Nor is does staff in your closet benefit from an icy burst feature. I can guarantee that.

All the stuff about "in game" consistency is bunk too. The devs change rules. It happens. Shrug it off. Nor is are the internal game mechanics all that logical either - I mean, held mobs are auto-crit but paralyzed mobs aren't.

If the devs just re-code q-staffs to be "light" weapons, they are instantly finessable, and 95% of players wouldn't notice. The other 5% would be happy.

Again, arguments AGAINST THIS?

[Drfirewater79]

/signed on making q-staffs finessable.


If the devs just re-code q-staffs to be "light" weapons, they are instantly finessable, and 95% of players wouldn't notice. The other 5% would be happy.

Again, arguments AGAINST THIS?

Thank you for proving you are not one of the ignorant and arrogant masses... the truth is there are NO valid arguments against making q-staffs finessable/light weapons ... they are all trolling it rather then actually coming up with valid arguments.

[Missing_Minds]

Thank you for proving you are not one of the ignorant and arrogant masses... the truth is there are NO valid arguments against making q-staffs finessable/light weapons ... they are all trolling it rather then actually coming up with valid arguments.

So past comments from the developers themselves on why, are just troll comments?