PLEASE PLEASE make quarterstaffs finessable

[Missing_Minds]

The point you and many others are missing entirely is the fact that the two staffs in the game as of this update that have level draining abilities are BOTH STR STAFFS.

Dreamspitter is the obvious one. What is the other one? Greensteel ash? (seriously, if there is another named one, I completely forget what it is.)

So lets leave out greensteel for the moment and look at this from a different angle. What other weapons (named) in the game have level draining properties?

[Drfirewater79]

Dreamspitter is the obvious one. What is the other one? Greensteel ash? (seriously, if there is another named one, I completely forget what it is.)

So lets leave out greensteel for the moment and look at this from a different angle. What other weapons (named) in the game have level draining properties?

Perhaps you missed the OP where the picture of the other quarterstaff takes up more room then the text.

The staff of shadow is the second life draining weapon .. and it too is a quarterstaff and it too is not finessable. AND it directly is the reason i stated that quarterstaffs should be made finessable because the people who NEED non high DPS weapons are dex builds who focus either on stat damaging or level draining in place of dps because of low str.

oh and just imagine adding the ritual with the stone wraps to it ... now you have a weapon that encases in stone auto crits and does neg levels while giving you 1 hp per hit back as well. No str fighter would use it .. but a dex based would love it.

[Missing_Minds]

Perhaps you missed the OP where the picture of the other quarterstaff takes up more room then the text.

At this point I did. Sorry.

The staff of shadow is the second life draining weapon .. and it too is a quarterstaff and it too is not finessable. AND it directly is the reason i stated that quarterstaffs should be made finessable because the people who NEED non high DPS weapons are dex builds who focus either on stat damaging or level draining in place of dps because of low str.

So.. the two named level drainers to be in game are quarterstaves. (it is a wonder that users of other weapons haven't thrown a fit.)

Greensteel can be level drainning on any hit vs. a chance when stunned and there are several finessable weapons to choose from.

It is still sounding like they threw quarterstaff users a bone, and you are demanding steak to be attached to it. As to your "NEED" that was the choice the player made. Higher reflex and AC instead of higher damage and weight allowance. I mean heck, that staff right there makes a joke out of Epic Soul Eater.

Honestly, I think you'd have an easier time convincing the development team that a TA or monk should be able to use a QS as a finsessable weapon via enhancements.
I'd say 6 AP and TA I or Master of Wind as requirements.

[Riggs]

yes to finessable quaterstaves.

Manuals have various lighter versions of staves that are 'monk weapons'. A 5 foot jo staff is vastly different in speed to a 6-7 foot oak 'nearly a pole arm' staff.

...and clubs - no one at Turbine has seen escrima/kali sticks?

And daggers need to be made monk centered weapons too - any weapon monks are proficient with should be centered weapons period.

[Riggs]

and also yeah - Turbine was unable to make staves be both THF and TWF like staves are supposed to be.

People that argue staves are only strength weapons know nothing about weapons - and by default any arguments to that effect are null and void.

The only issue is what can be implemented in game - and making staves (and clubs) finessable is the easiest, and most logical fix - and it is a fix as monks got hosed out of most good monk weapons that ar enot in the game, and further hosed when the 'must be centered and most weapons are not centered' thing was changed from pnp.

It is nice to have a SINGLE good set of handwraps in the game now - but monks have been getting hosed for years. How many named weapons, and green steel weapons are in the game? How many can monks use while centered? Kamas suck. Dream Edge you cant use on bosses? Suck.

It would be mega easy to fix - and Turbine refuses to do so. Then people get into random off topic tangents about all sorts of rationalizations - but the plain and simple fact is monks were implemented broke - and to this day they are still not 'fixed' when it comes to wraps and weapons.

So how many years more?

**edit - oh and I still say finesse as a feat should be removed from the game - just look at any of the billion threads about dex users having less dps than str users. And dps is the #1 important issue in the game as designed by Turbine.

So why should someone who has been 'using his/her dex' to get through life until the age of 18 say, suddenly NEED to spend an extra feat to use a dagger or whatever with dex instead of str? So less dps, AND it costs an extra feat, AND it makes no sence from a logic standpoint. (yeah its a pnp rule, but Turbine has already changed tons of those, so why stop at one more that would balance the game out better)

[Drfirewater79]

Honestly, I think you'd have an easier time convincing the development team that a TA or monk should be able to use a QS as a finsessable weapon via enhancements.
I'd say 6 AP and TA I or Master of Wind as requirements.

I would be just as happy if they add the life draining property of the new staff to the new barter system .. so you could take items from last update and merge with the quarterstaff from this updates to put level drain on weapons ... then the greatsword users like FVS warforged can have a neg level weapon ... and monks can have the ability on the stone handwraps ... and it wouldnt be exclusive to quarterstaffs which are not the main weapon for any class ...

but i think it would be easier to code finesse and make more sense to make qs finesse weapons then adding another crafting barter combo.

[Wraithkin]

Str Based Half Orc

13 rogue/6 monk/1 fighter

Thief Acrobat/Ninja spy

Windstance - Increase attack speed/Doublestrike
Thief Acrobat - Increase attack speed with staffs

Currently level 13 with a 29 Str.

/not signed.

Don't digress to much from D&D please. You'll lose a lot in doing so. Thank you.

[Vormaerin]

People that argue staves are only strength weapons know nothing about weapons - and by default any arguments to that effect are null and void.

No weapon is "only strength". If there is a problem with the rules, its that Strength is a factor in "to hit" in the first place. I suspect that's the case so characters could focus on one stat back in the earliest editions of the game, which were little more than skirmish rules for miniatures. Its also partially related to the 'armor = miss chance" mechanism that D&D uses.

Trying to prove that a weapon relies on manual dexterity is a no brainer. Every weapon relies on that.

It seems like the real argument here is that folks want level drain on a weapon usable by low DPS builds so they have a way to contribute in the post WoP world.

[Mr_Tank]

It seems like the real argument here is that folks want level drain on a weapon usable by low DPS builds so they have a way to contribute in the post WoP world.

This is the hidden argument in this thread.

[Riggs]

No weapon is "only strength". If there is a problem with the rules, its that Strength is a factor in "to hit" in the first place. I suspect that's the case so characters could focus on one stat back in the earliest editions of the game, which were little more than skirmish rules for miniatures. Its also partially related to the 'armor = miss chance" mechanism that D&D uses.

Trying to prove that a weapon relies on manual dexterity is a no brainer. Every weapon relies on that.

It seems like the real argument here is that folks want level drain on a weapon usable by low DPS builds so they have a way to contribute in the post WoP world.

ALL weapons are 'only strength'...in DDO, which is what my point was. And your either willfully ignoring my actual points, or....

Try to color in the lines.

[Vormaerin]

If you are making a point about the D&D rules, there is nothing in the rules to suggest that Quarterstaff is a finesse feat enabled weapon. It is treated exactly the same as the orcish double axe, the two bladed sword, and other large two handed weapons with more than one striking end. The only reference to "light" is in regards to the two weapon fighting penalties. All the "light" weapons are defined on the weapons tables on page 116 and 117 of the PHB. Quarterstaff is not one of them, nor is it listed under the description of Weapon Finesse as eligible.

If you were making an example about the quarterstaff in the real world, which is what I thought you were doing, then I my point is valid. "Strength only" is a conceit of the game system, not an accurate description of how any weapon functions in real combat.

[Riggs]

It seems like the real argument here is that folks want level drain on a weapon usable by low DPS builds so they have a way to contribute in the post WoP world.

Some are talking about Dreamsplitter. Because dps on a held epic monster = they break in seconds and hit you back needing more healing, while level draining them = they dont save and break, so you dont take damage and dont need extra healing, not even a raging barb is going to kill a held epic monster in 2 seconds - and is going to need a lot more healing when they do vs not breaking.

Wops? Since when have they been a factor in epics? And monks cant use ANY wop and still be centered...so maybe try making a point that matters to this year?

The point is monks do not get to use the weapons they are even proficient with - like clubs and handaxes even, AND any good weapons are str based weapons, while many monks are dex based, AND staves are changed from pnp, AND many 'monk' weapons from the paper rules are not added - lighter weapons like kali sticks, nunchaku, a dozen versions of sai/dagger/etc etc that monks should be centered with.

So the POINT isnt people whining about low dps, since dex monks have very little difference dps wise than str monks, (people with str builds whine more actually), the POINT is that Turbine took away a ton of stuff monks SHOULD have, and changed the rules so even what they get is gimped.

But then people that dont want monks to actually be fixed generally just whine about leaving them as they are because it makes them feel better or something to 'prove' dex builds are useless.

[Riggs]

If you are making a point about the D&D rules, there is nothing in the rules to suggest that Quarterstaff is a finesse feat enabled weapon...

Here is a thought - try reading before posting. Did you even read the OP? Sure doesnt seem like it.

Dude was asking for a rule change based on DDO conditions being different from D&D, and how it gimps some types of players.

really - I wont bother repeating after this one - but your not even reading anything before you reply to it. So what it the point? Ego?

[Vormaerin]

I am aware that he is requesting a rules change. You are apparently not aware that my replies were to the individual who suggested that quarterstaves were already light weapons because of the way the double weapon rule is worded.

My other point was in response to those trying to bolster the "rules should be changed" argument with "it reflects reality" arguments. I don't believe it does.

What argument has he actually advanced that the rules should be changed? Quarterstaves aren't a great weapon? How is that different than p&p? They aren't great there either. Unless you are playing in a game world were overt weapons display is frowned on, there's no game mechanics based point in using a quarterstaff.

The real argument is that he wants a finesse-able drain weapon, if you ask me. Argue for that directly if that's what you want.

[DarkFlash]

I am aware that he is requesting a rules change. You are apparently not aware that my replies were to the individual who suggested that quarterstaves were already light weapons because of the way the double weapon rule is worded.

My other point was in response to those trying to bolster the "rules should be changed" argument with "it reflects reality" arguments. I don't believe it does.

What argument has he actually advanced that the rules should be changed? Quarterstaves aren't a great weapon? How is that different than p&p? They aren't great there either. Unless you are playing in a game world were overt weapons display is frowned on, there's no game mechanics based point in using a quarterstaff.

The real argument is that he wants a finesse-able drain weapon, if you ask me. Argue for that directly if that's what you want.

And from your post we get back to the problem that Riggs stated:

...the POINT is that Turbine took away a ton of stuff monks SHOULD have, and changed the rules so even what they get is gimped...

So why not change the rules to make the few WEAPONS that monks can use a bit better? (Handwraps arent weapons, monk is the weapon and wraps only help)

EDIT: With the lesser vampirism coming to the stonedust wraps... Who will use dream edges?
/sarcasm on
Maybe we will get a 3rd droaam pack where you can upgrade the wraps with life draining, that should kill the Q-staff completely. YAY
/sarcasm off

[Drfirewater79]

Str Based Half Orc

13 rogue/6 monk/1 fighter

Thief Acrobat/Ninja spy

Windstance - Increase attack speed/Doublestrike
Thief Acrobat - Increase attack speed with staffs

Currently level 13 with a 29 Str.

/not signed.

Don't digress to much from D&D please. You'll lose a lot in doing so. Thank you.

So a str based thief acrobat who doesnt even realize that wind stance doesnt increase attackspeed anymore (they removed all alacrity from the game for double strike if you didnt know and what remains of the monk attack speed difference doesnt stack with haste anymore) Thinks making quarterstaffs finessable will be digressing to much from DnD but is ok with double Pre'ing which is a house rule at best in PnP .. .and triple multiclassing at same exp rate which is crazy out of the rules in DnD ... a triple multiclass would require double tr style exp to cap in pnp.

[Drfirewater79]

The real argument is that he wants a finesse-able drain weapon, if you ask me. Argue for that directly if that's what you want.

That is fair ... but I see no reason for that .... quarterstaffs are a monk Ki weapon ... quarterstaffs (and i am refering to 1 and a half inch to 3 inch diameter hardened wood staffs that stand at no more then half a foot above the wielders head) can be super light pending on the wood ... and the dexterious wielder will destroy the heavy strength wielder EVERY time.

All that being said .... asking for simply a finessable light weapon will lead to standard Turbine stupidity as they make the weapon a rapier or equally stupid light mace .. .weapons that cannot be used by monks. They already have the weapons in the game ... there are two classes that utilize them (rouges and monks) if not also wizards/sorcs who get the use based on simple weapon charts .... making them finessable is far more intelligent a method ....

that being said i already said i was fine with the early suggestion of that feat where you use wisdom instead of STR modifier for hit modifier with str based weapons. That too would then take place of finesse for wisdom based monks and would also solve the problem.

[Drfirewater79]

And from your post we get back to the problem that Riggs stated:
So why not change the rules to make the few WEAPONS that monks can use a bit better? (Handwraps arent weapons, monk is the weapon and wraps only help)

EDIT: With the lesser vampirism coming to the stonedust wraps... Who will use dream edges?
/sarcasm on
Maybe we will get a 3rd droaam pack where you can upgrade the wraps with life draining, that should kill the Q-staff completely. YAY
/sarcasm off

All kidding aside ... forget just the stone dust wraps ... if the third droaam pack had upgrades where you could take the staff and craft its main property (aka life drain) onto ALL the weapons from the new crafting system ... that would make it at least fair over all ... the str players get it on a greataxe option .. and a greatsword option ... rouge mechanics have more quarterstaff options then ever before ... and monks are not left out in the dark anymore as we could add it to the wraps.

While you said it being sarcastic .. its actually the perfect answer to balancing that ability to all classes and build types (finesse and brute) and kills the main reasoning for my suggestion.

Since level draining doesnt work on bosses .. it wont effect raids at all .. and will give high end dex builds a fun new toy to play with that is worth a licked cent (cause the difference between +6 stunning with petrify DC 17 and a +10 stunning wrap in amerath is major ... petrify never goes off EVER).

And it would make monks a valid crowd control class since our DPS is generally not up to snuff. (I love monks have str and dex based monks ... and i can tell you my barbarian at lvl 14 doing 320 physical damage on crits by far makes up for the attack speed difference on my str monk who is lucky to see 80 at lvl 14 on a crit in firestance with earth combo and jade strike)

[Robi3.0]

Someone once told me something to the extent of spending time making weapons that are not fists viable choices for pure monks was a waste of time, because fists are and will always be the best weapon choice for monks.

I think this little bit of logic applies here. Making q-staffs will only be beneficial to monks while wielding only two name weapons in the entire game. That doesn't seem to be worth the effort to me.

I suppose IF those two weapons just had to be used by finesse monks they should have finesse added as a weapon property. Of course being an evil DM I would make this a non retroactive change. MAHWAHAWAWAHAHA WAWAHahAHAH

[Vormaerin]

And from your post we get back to the problem that Riggs stated:
So why not change the rules to make the few WEAPONS that monks can use a bit better? (Handwraps arent weapons, monk is the weapon and wraps only help)

EDIT: With the lesser vampirism coming to the stonedust wraps... Who will use dream edges?
/sarcasm on
Maybe we will get a 3rd droaam pack where you can upgrade the wraps with life draining, that should kill the Q-staff completely. YAY
/sarcasm off

The quarterstaff is a terrible weapon in D&D. Its real world advantage is its superior parrying capability and D&D doesn't have a parry mechanism. Even if you made them finesse enabled, they'd still be a bad weapon choice.

If you are trying to give monks something to compensate for the loss of abilities that computer translation caused, why not give them something actually useful? Only a small fraction of monks are Dex based and the only reason they'd want to use a quarterstaff is for the drain modifier. So this change wouldn't help the monk class. It would maybe help a small fraction of suboptimal monks be a little less bad.

Finesse is a bad route in D&D. Its a terrible route in DDO. The staff is a bad weapon in D&D. Its a terrible weapon in DDO. Letting folks combine those two things in DDO would not make either of them better.