PLEASE PLEASE make quarterstaffs finessable

[Drfirewater79]

actually, about the only situation you'll use a life draining weapon that i've seen is against held mobs in epic play. in that situation, while a dex based wielder is clearly slightly disadvantaged (does less damage), they are still absolutely going to be able to use it to melee stuff down just fine.

The only reason you dont see it more is because quarterstaffs are not finesseable.
I know personally i love stunning +10 wraps .. but i could totally see me using a woo stick more often if it actually hit something ... hard to hit stuff with a 20 str.

[Drfirewater79]

um. other than the dreamspitter can you name another staff thats even useful for attacking? yeah i've seen some quarterstaff builds around and IMO they are nerfing their own dps by using them. especially monks and rogues.

1) Did you not see the staff in the OP? big picture ...
2) your not using it for dps your using it for support ... neg levels are so that casters can instant kill faster OR so that mobs lose there hps faster as every level drops there hp.
3) I am not suggesting that i am a quarterstaff build or that i would be if they made them finessable ... but i am suggesting that quarter staffs become finesseable because they are underused and it makes sense.

I dont think QS adds dps ... i am not an idiot .. in fact i even stated that handwraps do more damage ... but it would be adding a THF weapon to the finesse line which opens up character options and allows finesse users (where there to hit is dex not str).
My comment is directly based on the fact that energy drain is only found on quarterstaffs and the builds that could use them the most are the ones NOT doing top end DPS ...

[HarveyMilk]

I for one would love to see this happen. Quarterstaff finesse makes a lot of sense.

Maybe it should be exclusively a monk bonus feat?

[Azonalanthious]

I for one would love to see this happen. Quarterstaff finesse makes a lot of sense.

Maybe it should be exclusively a monk bonus feat?

They make as much or more sense for a thief-acrobat, so I wouldn't want to see it as monk exclusive. But I would generally like to see them. However, I would be happy with a 2 more dex quarterstaff items, one around level 8-10 or so to fill the gap between Gann and Breeze and a nice epic one and I think that would be more likely to happen then us getting them finessable. That would at least give the options for a dex based staff wielder to use throughout all the levels even if they aren't the very best possible weapon.

[Jaid314]

They make as much or more sense for a thief-acrobat, so I wouldn't want to see it as monk exclusive. But I would generally like to see them. However, I would be happy with a 2 more dex quarterstaff items, one around level 8-10 or so to fill the gap between Gann and Breeze and a nice epic one and I think that would be more likely to happen then us getting them finessable. That would at least give the options for a dex based staff wielder to use throughout all the levels even if they aren't the very best possible weapon.

the staff of nat gann *is* a nice epic staff... it can break devil DR (if you put holy in the slot), gives a bonus to dodge that allows you to equip dragontouched instead of icy, and has some useful bonus abilities. i mean, it's no epic sword of shadows, but then... what else is?

[HarveyMilk]

They make as much or more sense for a thief-acrobat, so I wouldn't want to see it as monk exclusive.

Maybe a capstoned thief-acro with finesse quarterstaff would be too much.

Forcing at least a 1 level monk splash to get the quarterstaff finesse feat would be fine. Most thief-acro quarterstaff users have some monk levels anyway.

Was just a thought. Honestly, just folding quarterstaffs into the weapon finesse feat would be fine... but giving monks a special weapon finesse feat, maybe that even allows all weapons they have proficiencies with to be finessed, including longswords if they take whirling steel?

[Azonalanthious]

Maybe a capstoned thief-acro with finesse quarterstaff would be too much.

Forcing at least a 1 level monk splash to get the quarterstaff finesse feat would be fine. Most thief-acro quarterstaff users have some monk levels anyway.

Was just a thought. Honestly, just folding quarterstaffs into the weapon finesse feat would be fine... but giving monks a special weapon finesse feat, maybe that even allows all weapons they have proficiencies with to be finessed, including longswords if they take whirling steel?

Thief-acro's are (in my opinion at least) better or at least equal when it comes to using staff, so I don't see requiring them to splash monk just to get the feat if the feat is going to be added at all, at least from a logic perspective. A balance perspective would be a different debate, but I don't think it would be that unbalancing - I haven't sat down and crunched the numbers, but I believe a two-weapon assasin spec'ed rogue would still out damage a acrobat even with finesses quarterstaffs. The gap would just be narrower then it is currently. If it was overpowering (purely in terms of the rogue +sneak damage capstone, since that would be the only reason to force the splash), you would see more folks using Breeze or Epic Nat Gann even if things were rough on them at lower levels - lotta folks focus on the end game and would have toughed it out to get there.

I do like the idea of a feat that lets monks finesse all ki weapons. Though the Inutive Strike feat (Wis as an attack bonus) would accomplish much the same for monks and as it is an existing 3.5 feat rather then something completely new, I think it would be more likely.

[winsom]

If Staves were made a finesse weapon, it would be completely pointless since they do just the 1 hit!

In D&D a quarterstaff is finessable (at least one end of it, I forget).

You can attack with both ends of the quarter staff using the two weapon fighting rules.

Monks can flurry of blows getting extra attacks with a quarterstaff. DDO has this right, sort-of.

[Griphon]

and as a sickle its not useable by monks as a ki weapon.

I believe this is actually a quarterstaff.

Reasons: It gets the speed boosts of a Thief Acrobat and it uses the quarterstaff attack animations.

Turbine's prolly got 'sickle' in place as a textual error.

[Mr_Tank]

When monks came out they added text saying that it is a ki weapon. See pic on page 2.

[The_Phenx]

I dont really know why anyone but a monk or a caster would use quarterstaffs ... they are lower damage then handwraps on a monk and there are better melee weapons for battle casters too .. so even they dont use them frequently outside of possibly GS.

Reason i feel not many people use quarterstaffs is because they are str based weapon ... so if you have no str then you cannot use them and if you have high str then there are a ton of better options both from the base damage and in the increased crit range aspects.

But when you see stuff like this



And you have to say to yourself ... why the hell is there another dreamspitter? not only is it just like dreamspitter but its str based weapon again.

I would like to put forth a suggestion that with 1 level of monk you can use quarterstaffs as a finessable weapon. Since FLAVOR wise it fits the monk better then any other class and most battle wizards and sorcs are taking at least two levels of monk for evasion and feats .. .and even more are taking 3 levels for the light fist attack.

There is no reason to not make quarterstaffs finessable .. and its a problem that has gone on for far to long with no intelligent reason not to fix. I mean you guys gave palidans intimidate .. and that is far more gamebreaking then allowing dex monks to use quarterstaffs.

I realize I am coming in on the tail end of this thread.

But since I post the same thing every time someone asks.

Quarterstaffs by the dev's are considered english heavy staffs. Oriental martial finesse staffs are lighter like Bo Staffs.

These kind exist in the game already if you know where to look. Shining crescents is a finess dual sickle adamantine 2d6 staff from Titan. Natt Gann and Epic Natt Gann are dex to hit and damage, as is Breeze from the Abbot.

The reason no sane person even most thief acrobats who's primary weapon is a staff wants them to be dex based is because you loose on the 1.5x str damage mod from using a two handed weapon.

This has been discussed for years now and never gains traction for that reason, that's why the Dev's started introducing some named finesse staffs for that small crowd.

[Vormaerin]

In D&D a quarterstaff is finessable (at least one end of it, I forget).

You can attack with both ends of the quarter staff using the two weapon fighting rules.

I probably should have just left this thread to die, but... the quarterstaff is not a 'light' weapon in D&D 3.5, nor it is finesse-able.

It is a "double weapons", which means you can EITHER use it as a single 2h weapon or treat it as if it were two weapons for TWF purposes. If you do the latter, you fight with the penalties appropriate to using a 1h weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your off-hand.

The quarterstaff is NOT listed on the list of weapons eligible for use with the Weapon Finesse feat, nor is it a "light" weapon. No one gets their Dex to hit with a quarterstaff, orcish double axe, two bladed sword, or any other double weapon.

The European quarterstaff was primarily used in a fashion very similar to how a two handed sword was used.

If you want them to include one of the various sorts of Asian short staves in DDO, that's fine. But don't confuse it with the quarterstaff.

[winsom]

" A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it." 3.5 SRD

The wielder choses if the quarterstaff is to be treated as a two handed weapon OR a 1-handed weapon + a light weapon.

The Weapon Finesse feat says that "light weapons" are used with the feat. Weapon lists/tables are not comprehensive rules by themselves.

It is a "double weapons", which means you can EITHER use it as a single 2h weapon or treat it as if it were two weapons for TWF purposes. If you do the latter, you fight with the penalties appropriate to using a 1h weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your off-hand.

The quarterstaff is NOT listed on the list of weapons eligible for use with the Weapon Finesse feat, nor is it a "light" weapon. No one gets their Dex to hit with a quarterstaff, orcish double axe, two bladed sword, or any other double weapon.

The European quarterstaff was primarily used in a fashion very similar to how a two handed sword was used.

If you want them to include one of the various sorts of Asian short staves in DDO, that's fine. But don't confuse it with the quarterstaff.

Apart from the rules themselves you might consider what finesse means. You can imagine swinging a staff in a relatively clumsy way. You can also imagine a style that requires more finesse. It is that later style that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat while losing out on some bonuses reserved for 2 handed weapon use.

[redgod]

And its also the most useless piece of timber in the game ... its not good for a lvl 20 monk to use ... but the dreamspitter and the new staff are both weapons one could use in epic missions .... this is the whole reason for my post ....

I dont want to use a **** q-staff ... and i think its stupid to keep putting out the same q-staff over and over and making both not useable by dex monks ...

look cry about it all you like, but as a monk you should know if your using anything other than handwraps your using the wrong weapon.

the only time a QS should be used is in the hands of a build specifically built for QS flavor (see the multitude of big Fn stick builds).

and for my final comment If im running an epic and the monk whips out a quarterstaff and says lets go i'm rethinking the party.

[FluffyCalico]

you obviously dont do epics ... or are completely blind to the fact that the dreamspitter today is the single most used weapon in epics .

Really? I must be doing it wrong then as I have been using a ESOS all this time. Silly me...Oh dear does this mean that dual earth grab heavy picks are out too? And what about +10 stunning wraps are those yesterdays news also?

Dreamsplitters are what casters use between spells and healing clerics use when not healing. Also the only time you should be swinging a dreamsplitter is against a held mob (if you have low crit dps) and it doesn't take much to hit a held mob.

[Vormaerin]

" A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it." 3.5 SRD

The wielder choses if the quarterstaff is to be treated as a two handed weapon OR a 1-handed weapon + a light weapon.

The Weapon Finesse feat says that "light weapons" are used with the feat. Weapon lists/tables are not comprehensive rules by themselves.




Apart from the rules themselves you might consider what finesse means. You can imagine swinging a staff in a relatively clumsy way. You can also imagine a style that requires more finesse. It is that later style that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat while losing out on some bonuses reserved for 2 handed weapon use.

Are you seriously going to try arguing that the character with the finesse feat gets his Dex to hit with his off hand and his strength with his main hand? Because there is nothing that even remotely suggests that the "main hand" of a double weapon is ever "light". Nor does it actually say that its light in the off hand. it says "just as though". Which is different than "is for all purposes, including other unrelated rules."

Btw, if you are silly enough to think any successful weapons user is "relatively clumsy", you obviously don't have any experience with using weapons. Read the medieval era instruction manuals for, say, a two handed sword. Its clearly about balance, positioning, hand placement, tripping, and all manner of other non clumsy things.

[Drfirewater79]

I believe this is actually a quarterstaff.

Reasons: It gets the speed boosts of a Thief Acrobat and it uses the quarterstaff attack animations.

Turbine's prolly got 'sickle' in place as a textual error.

its a thf sickle ... it looks and uses the same animation as a quarterstaff but is considered a sickle.

[Drfirewater79]

Really? I must be doing it wrong then as I have been using a ESOS all this time. Silly me...Oh dear does this mean that dual earth grab heavy picks are out too? And what about +10 stunning wraps are those yesterdays news also?

Dreamsplitters are what casters use between spells and healing clerics use when not healing. Also the only time you should be swinging a dreamsplitter is against a held mob (if you have low crit dps) and it doesn't take much to hit a held mob.

oh you mean low crit dps like dex based monks and rouges .. yes i agree .. this is the reason i suggest that quarterstaffs are made finessable because the dex based characters are the ones who make the most use out of quarterstaffs.

What dex based character uses an epic sos ..??? really ... heavy picks ... did you even read any of the thread?

+10 stunning was the only on topic decent thing you mentioned that made any sense ... and really with casters doing mass hold monster so frequently +10 stunning is only good for maintaining auto crit in case they save .. while neg levels do that faster and easier.

[Drfirewater79]

look cry about it all you like, but as a monk you should know if your using anything other than handwraps your using the wrong weapon.

the only time a QS should be used is in the hands of a build specifically built for QS flavor (see the multitude of big Fn stick builds).

and for my final comment If im running an epic and the monk whips out a quarterstaff and says lets go i'm rethinking the party.

1) no one is crying about anything .... that is a trolltasitc comment and you can keep the troll comments to yourself.

2) I use exclusively handwraps ... have many sets all on hot bars for specific situations so much so that i only have 10 slots open for new loot.

3) QS are the only weapon in the game that deals negitive levels so when dps is not the consern then dreamspitter is the main weapon for epics and in some rare other cases. QS are a monk weapon ... as such monks should be able to use them easily ... there is a high stat requirement for monks ... making them Finessable to open up more weapon options to dex based monks and other classes does not ruin gameplay or make dex based characters overpowered.

4) if you rethink your party because someone whips out a dreamspitter .. then you have no clue about epics. Sorry to say this but its true ... neg levels every few seconds kills the mobs faster then dps for dex builds. If you dont know that ... maybe you dont know dex builds ... and if you dont know dex builds ... you have no valid point in your debate to stand on.

[Drfirewater79]

I realize I am coming in on the tail end of this thread.

But since I post the same thing every time someone asks.

Quarterstaffs by the dev's are considered english heavy staffs. Oriental martial finesse staffs are lighter like Bo Staffs.

These kind exist in the game already if you know where to look. Shining crescents is a finess dual sickle adamantine 2d6 staff from Titan. Natt Gann and Epic Natt Gann are dex to hit and damage, as is Breeze from the Abbot.

The reason no sane person even most thief acrobats who's primary weapon is a staff wants them to be dex based is because you loose on the 1.5x str damage mod from using a two handed weapon.

This has been discussed for years now and never gains traction for that reason, that's why the Dev's started introducing some named finesse staffs for that small crowd.

The point you and many others are missing entirely is the fact that the two staffs in the game as of this update that have level draining abilities are BOTH STR STAFFS.

The dex based staffs all suck in comparison to real weapons rapiers for rouges and handwraps for monks. And the only reason i suggest finesse quarterstaffs is because of the level drain ability not being found on any other weapon and dex based characters are the ones that benifit the most from stat damaging and level draining weapons yet there are none for dex based melee fighters.

making quarterstaffs finessable solves this problem.