PLEASE PLEASE make quarterstaffs finessable

[dunklezhan]

you obviously dont do epics ... or are completely blind to the fact that the dreamspitter today is the single most used weapon in epics ... and a dex based monk ... cannot use it on mobs unless they are already stunned or held. Now they add another weapon which fits perfect with the theme of an alternate to dreamspitter ... however nope.

I never said all monks are dex based ... but many are ... the kinds of monks that rely on stat damaging rather then DPS .. cause lets be honest here if your a full monk and your using q-staff for DPS then your a freaking moron ... handwraps do twice the damage.

But for a DEX monk ... where dps is not top end anyway ... a weapon that does vampirism AND neg levels is exactly the type of weapon we need for end game. As i said it makes no sense to not have q-staffs be a dex weapon ... no one else can use them effectively .. there are many many better weapons for str users ... only people who need most of these weapons are classes and bulids that are not dps focused.

I dont even care if weapon damage is still str based ... so long as to hit worked directly with finesse feat.

Sounds to me like you're arguing for a specific staff to be finessible. And I have no problem with that since it doesn't exclude the Str based THF specialists from using it - and they do exist.

[Samiusbot]

I would be more worried about adding a toggle to q-staffs to fight using the THF style and also go into TWF style. As that flexibility in Pnp is a large part of why it is a fair weapon.

Also why does any one using the Dreamspliter in epics need help hitting?

Most mobs are held or stunned and auto hit/crit able and the ones that are not more damage is often better.

[Drfirewater79]

I'm not sure why a caster would have high dex any more than they would have high str (and likely more casters have higher str than dex, esp divine ones (right?)), so this suggestion doesn't seem to be for casters at all. Monks, sure they might have a higher dex, but I'd assume they'd have a decent strength as well (not having played one). Rogues are the real target with this suggestion, but they too should have a decent strength, especially if they're an acrobat specific build (which, if they're not, they'd be slightly gimpy being otherwise). Interesting idea, and I see no harm in it, but I also don't see a huge use, and quarterstaffs aren't exactly light weapons.

an AC monk (dex bulid) there is no room for high str ... with items and tomes i hit 20 while in wind stance ... (38 dex 30 wis rest goes into con so you have some hitpoints) .... i have used quarterstaffs in real life and i can tell you ... they are not light weapons but they are not heavy either they are finesse weapons that require a ton of dexterity to wield effectively .... unlike a claymore (greatsword) or war-axe which are far more powerful when in the hands of a stronger person.
Q-staffs where weapons used by the weaker farmers to defend against soldiers with swords. Make up for strength with finesse.

If Q-staffs where made dex weapons ... they would be the only thf finessable weapon .. which makes sense ... as most other thf weapons are held with two hands for the sake of being able to hold the weapon (great weapons for instance are not suppost to be able to be swung with one hand) while a quarter staff is able to be swung with one hand (not frequently but it is light enough to swing with one hand so long as you have momentium)

[Drfirewater79]

Sounds to me like you're arguing for a specific staff to be finessible. And I have no problem with that since it doesn't exclude the Str based THF specialists from using it - and they do exist.

STR can always be used for any weapon even finessable weapons .. like i said i am all down for str still being used for damage .. but ALL q-staffs should be finessable not just specific ones. It doesnt hurt anyone .. but it does allow dex builds to use them without taking away from wis and con to add str ... which is by its nature makes them no longer a dex build.

[Drfirewater79]

I would be more worried about adding a toggle to q-staffs to fight using the THF style and also go into TWF style. As that flexibility in Pnp is a large part of why it is a fair weapon.

Also why does any one using the Dreamspliter in epics need help hitting?

Most mobs are held or stunned and auto hit/crit able and the ones that are not more damage is often better.

Cause there are times when mobs break holds ... swaping weapons mid battle is very very annoying .. and often leads to not actually being used by monks who end up sticking with wraps cause they do more damage. Also Quarter Staffs are monk ki weapons ... quarter staffs allow for a bludgeon spec'd monk which is what most are because of handwraps (again most not all) to have options. How many fighters are bludgeon spec'd and use quarterstaffs? Even rouges or rangers ... are far more likely to use khopeshes then quarterstaffs if they have half a brain.

But Monks cannot use khopeshes ... in fact unless they are a str build they cant use any thf weapons at all ... Epic was just an example of one place they would be used ... not the only place.... if i had the ability to drain levels on crits with a set of handwraps then i might not care.

But as it stands the only half decent named set of handwraps are the stone wraps ... and only if your a earth stance monk ... wind stance monk finds them useless as he doesnt spend his time in earth stance most time he spends in wind stance.
The point is there are not enough options for finessable weapons ... and quarterstaffs are the only thf weapon that makes any sense as a finessable weapon.

If it gave monks an unfair advantage i would understand people not liking the idea ... but it doesnt hurt anyone .. it even does LESS damage then handwraps ... but it does allow monks to have some use of q-staffs when not str builds.

[Drfirewater79]

There is no reason why quarterstaves should be finesse weapons, although the occasional especially enchanted one certainly could be.

These weapons are often misrepresented as long sticks of wood -- I have one of these myself, it's a big walking stick. Used as a weapon, it would probably be more like a 2-handed rod than a quarterstaff... (good for scaring stray dogs away during hiking though )

Quarterstaves are metal-shod, and are actually often hollow, with a rod of metal filling the cavity, soaked and otherwise formed so that the wood grips round this metal core, hardened, tipped with metal, and in D&D worlds, spikes, enchanted, and etc.

They are heavy weapons, not daggers, kamas, and whatnot.

Having said that, a lighter weapon which were in fact just a big stick, but NOT a quarterstaff, could potentially be introduced into the game... but then again, possibly those exceptional finessable q-staves may be exactly that

Personally I'd rule that a finessable staff would not provide extra effective strength as the other 2-handed weapons, and would have lower damage base than a quarterstaff, simply by virtue of being light weaponry unlike other 2-handed weapons.

I dont know what quarterstaff you wield but my iron wood quarterstaff has no metal center its not hollow at all its fairly light but will split skulls easily. Its considered a simple weapon as is ... name me another heavy weapon that is simple to use... and often the most simple weapons are most effective when held by a dexterious wielder.

[Mr_Tank]

and as a sickle its not useable by monks as a ki weapon.

Bad pic. My bad.

[Samiusbot]

...simple weapons are most effective when held by a dexterious wielder.

All weapons are more effective with a more dexterous wielder. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee. Dnd rules don't always follow life.

[Dylvish]

There is no reason why quarterstaves should be finesse weapons, although the occasional especially enchanted one certainly could be.

These weapons are often misrepresented as long sticks of wood -- I have one of these myself, it's a big walking stick. Used as a weapon, it would probably be more like a 2-handed rod than a quarterstaff... (good for scaring stray dogs away during hiking though )

Quarterstaves are metal-shod, and are actually often hollow, with a rod of metal filling the cavity, soaked and otherwise formed so that the wood grips round this metal core, hardened, tipped with metal, and in D&D worlds, spikes, enchanted, and etc.

They are heavy weapons, not daggers, kamas, and whatnot.

Having said that, a lighter weapon which were in fact just a big stick, but NOT a quarterstaff, could potentially be introduced into the game... but then again, possibly those exceptional finessable q-staves may be exactly that

Personally I'd rule that a finessable staff would not provide extra effective strength as the other 2-handed weapons, and would have lower damage base than a quarterstaff, simply by virtue of being light weaponry unlike other 2-handed weapons.

Actually you have a staff. Actual 1/4staves were usually longer than the person is tall. I do agree however, that they were NOT very light, and took strength to wield with any effectiveness. They were a poor man's war tool.

There were also a very light fighting staff used by some specialized combatants, which were very popular in Asia, and were also used by acrobats (the performing kind, not the fighting kind of acrobat). This was a staff usually about 6 feet long at the most, normally made of Reinforced bamboo, or a thin wood (forgot the name). It was a VERY fast weapon, and was especially useful against swordsmen.


... Why am I talking reality in a game? Because I got caught up in the moment I guess. *cough* Sorry.

Back to game stuff.

I do like the idea of the weapon being usable with finesse for to-hit. I also love the idea of the TWF being useable for it. However, I think this should also cost a feat (exotic weapon: Quarterstaff Fighting). This way, its a simple weapon, UNLESS you have training in how to use it for advanced combat.

Just my 2 cents.

[Missing_Minds]

The devs (I think it was Eladrin) posted on this what was it... last year?

They couldn't figure out a good way to do this as there are valid real life examples both way.

You've got your very strong and heaft oak staff, ala Little John (friend of Robin of the Hood.)

Then you've got your spin tastic martial artists. (Point of contention, most real life martial artist don't skimp on getting stronger.)

I both forget and am too lazy to look up the PnP rules on the quarterstaff to see if it really is fenisable or not.

The only in between I can think of is to create a stone of change recipe to add 'fenissable' attribute to a weapon. I'd make it expensive however.

[Chai]

Quarterstaff is definately a weapon that can be used gripping one end (THF) or flowering (TWF) where the center of the weapon is near the body at all times and the 2 ends spin using the human waste line as the fulcrum to generate force. I myself know a few forms of each style.

As a game mechanic, D&D 3.5 uses the terms "light, medium, and heavy" to describe weight classes as weapons, and "small medium and large" as size classes of weapons.

A finesse weapon has to be light. -OR- In some cases, prestige classes allow certain weapons to be used as finesse even though they are medium weapons. An example of this is dervish, which allows scimitars as finesse in 3.5 (drizzt wanna be's, Im lookin at you, heh)

I dont believe they should be finesse for everyone, because a staff definately is not a light weapon. The wood is a tree trunk from a sapling chinese white oak tree, which definately is solid and weighs more than a rapier or a short sword, and many combat staves are threaded with metal which allows them to parry blades without being cut in two.

I do believe some PRE could offer staff as a finesse weapon, if the devs ever iron that one out as far as coding is concerned.

[Drfirewater79]

All weapons are more effective with a more dexterous wielder. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee. Dnd rules don't always follow life.

some weapons are unfinessable in real life ... dexterous wielders do not always have the advantage .. the master of the claymore was the barbarian drugged up and high as a kite .. cleaving his way through waves of his enemies with no finesse at all ...

but a quarter staff is quite the opposite .. used by martial artists and poor folk most commonly where strength was able to be outdone with speed and agility and dexterity.

that is my point ... while i agree some dnd rules do not match real life ... and i am a big fan of realistic does not make fantasy more fun. BUT in the case of quarterstaffs specifically there is room to bend the rules.

after all palidans using intimidate is gamebreakingly bending the rules (take a class that is cha focused and has the highest ac in the game and give them the best intimidate and best saves) What i suggest is not gamebreaking at all. Its just giving dex builds more weapon options.

[Drfirewater79]

The devs (I think it was Eladrin) posted on this what was it... last year?
They couldn't figure out a good way to do this as there are valid real life examples both way.
You've got your very strong and heaft oak staff, ala Little John (friend of Robin of the Hood.)
Then you've got your spin tastic martial artists. (Point of contention, most real life martial artist don't skimp on getting stronger.)
I both forget and am too lazy to look up the PnP rules on the quarterstaff to see if it really is fenisable or not.

The only in between I can think of is to create a stone of change recipe to add 'fenissable' attribute to a weapon. I'd make it expensive however.

I hate to say it be Eladrin especially has been known to say some things that make no sense what so ever and blame FLAVOR for it.
Real life examples are meaningless in a FANTASY game ...
You forget robin held john to a stand still with a quarterstaff .. and he was not nearly as strong far more finesse a fighter then john.

Palidans cannot use intimidate as a class skill in PnP .. but they can here .. so even pnp rules mean nothing ... what matters is what classes would for one reason or another use quarterstaffs ... who would that be ... monks would use one because it does more damage then kamas and there are better named quarter staffs and its bludgeon which is what most handwrap monks are specd for (handwraps being best dps option for monks) ... rouges though a str rouge would use khopeshes .. or scimitars ... or longswords ... or dwarven axes .. or a greatsword ... or any of the str weapons that are better dps or crit ranges or both .... Wizards and Sorcs might ... as well .. but a str based dps wizard or sorc will likely use greatswords (sos is common with most melee sorcs and wizards i have seen at end game)

now talk dex builds ... kama (requires feat if not a monk) ... rapier (martial weapon so requires feat or multiclass or specific races non ki weapon) ... daggers (again not ki weapon and less dps then rapiers) light mace (does anyone use these vs anything but undead?) ...

there are alot of quarterstaffs ... named quarterstaffs in this game ... only 1 is finessable and actually a quarterstaff that uses dex for both damage and to hit ...

but i dont want all quarterstaffs to be both damage and to hit .. just finessable meaning using dex to hit instead of str. I dont see why anyone cares .. its not like it makes one class overpowered ... The do so many things that destroy game balance ... when you ask them to do something that makes sense .. they say it doesnt make sense in real life? how stupid is that?

[Chai]

some weapons are unfinessable in real life ... dexterous wielders do not always have the advantage .. the master of the claymore was the barbarian drugged up and high as a kite .. cleaving his way through waves of his enemies with no finesse at all ...

Naaa, I have a two handed sword form which is very dexterous and very misleading inhow deadly it can be. Str weapons arent exactly mindless cleaving without any thought put into it.

but a quarter staff is quite the opposite .. used by martial artists and poor folk most commonly where strength was able to be outdone with speed and agility and dexterity.

Staffs can go either way. Flowering is the TWF style and takes alot of paying attention to learn. I have seen many people including myself lose control of a weapon and knock themselves out when tryingto learn a flowering form.

that is my point ... while i agree some dnd rules do not match real life ... and i am a big fan of realistic does not make fantasy more fun. BUT in the case of quarterstaffs specifically there is room to bend the rules.

D&D rules definately do not match real life, heh. A kama is an exotic weapon, and is easier to learn to use than a staff is, where staff is labeled a simple weapon. They needed to study their asian and european martial arts before making these decisions.

after all palidans using intimidate is gamebreakingly bending the rules (take a class that is cha focused and has the highest ac in the game and give them the best intimidate and best saves) What i suggest is not gamebreaking at all. Its just giving dex builds more weapon options.

I dont know that intim breaks the game for paladins. Fighters have feats they can invest in dragonmarks and skill focus, where paladins have to pump the Cha. It comes out in the wash. How many situations is intimidate even used in anymore, heh.

As for staff being game breaking as finesse, naaaa. I think giving it to a few different PRE (accrobat, some monk PRE etc) would be acceptable. I dont see the DPS balance tipping any time soon because of it.

Who makes finese toons anymore? Maybe there are still a few dex / wis monks floating around, but they dont want to use staffs anyhow LOL. And rogues nowdays are mostly built for str.

Also: making it finesse and making it TWF are two different things. If they made it TWF, I think we would see a larger gravitation to staffs than if they made it finesse. Str based accrobats would actually come close to leveling the playing field with assassins if staff was TWF. They cant use the coding excuse here because we already have a precident in place (handwraps) for being able to use TWF with one equipped weapon.

[Azonalanthious]

there are alot of quarterstaffs ... named quarterstaffs in this game ... only 1 is finessable and actually a quarterstaff that uses dex for both damage and to hit ...

Two actually, Nat Gann and Breeze. Still like to see them finessable, two-weaponable, and more magic ones that also do dex damage. We'll see.

[Azonalanthious]

there are alot of quarterstaffs ... named quarterstaffs in this game ... only 1 is finessable and actually a quarterstaff that uses dex for both damage and to hit ...

Two actually, Nat Gann and Breeze. I, by the way, disagree with Nat Gann being useless - its useless at EPIC maybe. Its a grand weapon for a low level dex based character though. Still like to see them finessable, two-weaponable, and more magic ones that also do dex damage. We'll see.

[Jaid314]

Two actually, Nat Gann and Breeze. I, by the way, disagree with Nat Gann being useless - its useless at EPIC maybe. Its a grand weapon for a low level dex based character though. Still like to see them finessable, two-weaponable, and more magic ones that also do dex damage. We'll see.

the problem there is that if you build to use the staff of nat gann and don't build to also be able to use every other staff (ie use a strength build) then you can pretty much forget about every other staff in the game. being locked in to using the staff of nat gann is a horrible, crippling disadvantage. having absolutely no access to greensteel, let alone all the other named quarterstaves... that's not exactly pleasant.

i can understand the desire to make quarterstaff a finesse weapon. i personally don't care either way (color me crazy, but i'd like to have higher damage as well, and strength is the stat for that), but i can see why people would want that.

[Drfirewater79]

Who makes finese toons anymore? Maybe there are still a few dex / wis monks floating around, but they dont want to use staffs anyhow LOL. And rogues nowdays are mostly built for str.

Also: making it finesse and making it TWF are two different things. If they made it TWF, I think we would see a larger gravitation to staffs than if they made it finesse. Str based accrobats would actually come close to leveling the playing field with assassins if staff was TWF. They cant use the coding excuse here because we already have a precident in place (handwraps) for being able to use TWF with one equipped weapon.

Finesse toons are the best solo builds for non casters .. .and really as of late this game is more fun to solo these days then group ... which i hate to say but its true.

A finesse monk is most survivable easily hitting self buffed 70+ ac with just basic gear and with a 65+ ac its easy to solo stuff like sins new invasion and even bastion cause you dont get hit all that often really. I mean some self healing is required its not like you dont get hit at all but its doable.

its like you said quarterstaffs are not gonna tip the dps scales ... and handwraps do more damage anyway ... but specifically because energy drain is only found on quarterstaffs and the ONLY classes that truely benifit from stat draining weapons are finesse builds ...

I just dont see the reason why not ... of course i liked the idea the guy on the first page said best .. feat that uses wisdom instead of str for to hit ... then no monk would ever use finesse anyway and it would end the finesse quarterstaffs issue all together.

[Missing_Minds]

You forget robin held john to a stand still with a quarterstaff .. and he was not nearly as strong far more finesse a fighter then john.

Kevin Costner : LJ pwned Robin until Robin did a "sneak attack".
Cary Elwes : bad sticks on both ends.
Errol Flynn : honestly, I forget. but he had a devil of a time dealing with Tuck.
Book says: I have no clue as I've never read the book.
Russell Crowe : never saw that version.

LJ probably had what.. STR of 18 and DEX of 12 while RH would have what? STR of 15 and DEX of 16? Hardly "finese" stats. Being quick and agile does not mean a "finesse" fighter.

Palidans cannot use intimidate as a class skill in PnP .. but they can here .. so even pnp rules mean nothing ...

DDO style of intimidate is not PnP style. It made sense to grant paladins it. The PnP rules are a bases and guideline, when things will not work properly, of course you have to house rule things. What you want is a way to help min max stats vs. more balanced stats.

[Drfirewater79]

Two actually, Nat Gann and Breeze. Still like to see them finessable, two-weaponable, and more magic ones that also do dex damage. We'll see.

Never even heard of breeze ... it must be that damd good ... that i never heard of it.

But dreamspitter and the new staff are both level draining weapons .. and that is something no dex build can use.

When you look at unfair advantages ... that to me is a major one. It would be one thing if the new staff could be used with the new crafting system to add life drain ability to other weapons then you could take it and merge with handwraps and put life drain on stunning +6 wraps with petrify ... sure ... but that would be a bit over the top i think ... a lot less over the top then making quarterstaffs finessable across the board ... especially since str would still be the damage modifier.

Personally i dont understand why there are no epic handwraps yet either .. new quests have been all "no epic version" for some reason ...we finially get named handwraps that are decent and no epic version.

but they have no problem creating a wanna be dreamspitter on us leaving monks out of the picture again. I mean its abit off topic but ... its the reason why its becoming stupid for ALL monks not to be able to use quarterstaffs.