The Great Armor Debate

[dkyle]

Because the suggestions that you are making are just too radical to be implemented without reason.

So radical they did it in LoTRO? And that's a game that cares much more about RP and setting than DDO.

I'm sure the devs and game designers think that arcanes shouldn't look like they're wearing half a mountain's worth of metal armour

Most Wizard players probably agree, so there probably won't be that many Wizards running around in Full Plate. Then again, it's not exactly impossible for a Wizard to wear, say, Mithral Breastplate without ASF.

and paladins shouldn't run around like they look like a mummy.

If you're thinking of the Mummy Wrappings armor, then they could already wear that if they so choose.

What we have now is Paladins in Pajamas. Is that so wonderful?

The game has different armour kinds and armour restrictions for classes for a reason.

Yes, mechanics. Heavy armor gives more AC for less DEX investment at the cost of skill penalties and ASF. That AC means so little is unfortunate, but that's a very difficult problem to fix. Allowing the appearance of heavy armor with the mechanics of light armor would be trivial to do, and at least fix part of the problem.

The logic and rationelle of "it should be how I want it because that's the way I want it" is not, and should not, be considered. Give an actual, non-subjective reason.

It's cosmetics. It's all subjective. There's no "logical" reason why anyone should care what their character looks like.

I'm asking to make my character look the way I want, while wearing the armor I want to wear. You're asking to make your character look the way you want, while wearing the armor you want to wear. I have no problem with your suggestion other than the difficulty I think it might present to the devs. You're the one with a problem with how I want my character to look.

[thwart]

The most important thing about cosmetic armour is that I should be able to go into a tavern and pick up every chick in there due entirely to my outfit.

Of course the size of your great club can also help with this.

[Dilbon]

How will it affect YOUR gameplay if I am wearing robes but look like I'm wearing full plate?

If this was a PvP oriented game where the only thing you see about the enemy is their appearance, wearing something that isn't what it looks like would be a bad thing. If you wanted to disguise yourself as a totally different class, you would also have to take the penalty that comes with it (plate wearing caster, fighter in underwear).

Of course DDO is nothing like that (no meaningful PvP and fighters frequently wear pyjamas), but in general that's the point. You either look like what you are, or you gimp yourself so you can look different.

[Ciaran]

So why can't my +5 GS Tier II GAxe look like a thin stick if that's what I want? Why can't my DT armour look like a happy face t-shirt if that's what I want? Why can't I get exact what I want?

Because you can't always get what you want? Just think of the potential abuses if everyone got what they want because of the logic "if that's what I want".

That would only apply if we were talking about anything but aesthetics. What abuse could come from people wanting to make their DT Vestments look like full plate, so long as the appearance is the only thing that changes (not the AC, MDB, ASF, DR, etc, etc)?

I'd love to make my character's DT Vestments look like the Chain Shirt of Crippling or even Marilith Chain (albeit with a different color palette).

Freedom in how one appears is a good thing in an MMO. Your argument about potential abuses when it comes to customization of appearance (and that's what it is - calling it "masking" is splitting hairs needlessly) doesn't apply when you consider there is no abuse that can really come from giving players greater control over their appearance in a game that doesn't have any real PvP.

[grimbot]

Well, all I have to say is that I am tired of everyone running around with their faces showing, when I KNOW they are wearing a helmet. If you want the bonuses a helmet provides, you should have to deal with the appearance of a helmet. And what the heck was Turbine thinking with stuff like the ninja mask, and bunny hat? It's not cool that fighters with big helmets can look like they are wearing a cloth mask, or that a Wizard could be parading around in a bulky skull helmet. I mean, come on!

/sarcasm off

For real though, the LOTRO system is awesome. Having played it, and participated in RP events, I have to say it hugely increased immersion in the game. They also do have a dye system that allows a degree of customization with whatever cosmetics you like. Limit characters to cosmetics that they are proficient in, and can equip. Why is it important for ALL of us to run around in robes and outfits? For the sake of realism? It's a game about magic and dragons. Personally, I think it would add a ton to the game, if random crappy loot might generate an awesome cosmetic armor skin.

[hityawithastick]

Why is it important for ALL of us to run around in robes and outfits? For the sake of realism? It's a game about magic and dragons.

Not only are these three sentences epic win, but I agree completely with the post I snipped them out of.

[shadowhop]

I believe DDO could get more roleplay mechanics. Looking like a fighter with a full plate armour instead of a fighter wearing pyamas would be nice.

The armour slots can also be class restricted, like a fighter can get full plate as looks but an arcane can not.

[Kominalito]

No... I understand completely. If you have issues that leather armour sucks but robes are better, so you wear robes instead, that is a seperate issue. This is a debate about "customization" existing armour not "masking" armour from one type to another





Again.... not customizing, but masking. If you have an issue with armour gimpness, start a new thread.




And you'd still be wrong. We have a character creator as a template to use. Really.... unless a dev posts otherwise, I fail to see how it would be any easier than what already exists




Seems like they're going a different route.




So why can't my +5 GS Tier II GAxe look like a thin stick if that's what I want? Why can't my DT armour look like a happy face t-shirt if that's what I want? Why can't I get exact what I want?

Because you can't always get what you want? Just think of the potential abuses if everyone got what they want because of the logic "if that's what I want".




Just like you'd doubt that people would run a naked shroud? Or an All barb with Clubs of the Holy Flame shroud run?

People do silly things. Every TR would bank their starter rags and then once they hit level 20, wear the starter rags as the mask that you so doubt people would.




Both. But more #1 than #2.

sooooo back'd. +1

[sirgog]

I've seen it stated (repeatedly) that some people are against customization beyond a certain degree--that is to say, allowing people to wear robes and look like they're wearing plate armor. Any thoughts, forumites?

I'm fine with a paladin (or other class capable of wearing heavy armor) wearing a 'cosmetic' fullplate over their robe.

Perhaps add a requirement that you are proficient in an armor type to look like you are wearing it?

[katana_one]

Perhaps add a requirement that you are proficient in an armor type to look like you are wearing it?

Good suggestion, I think. Would this satisfy those who are saying "no" to making their pajamas look like full plate?

Personally, I don't want to make my pajamas look like full plate (but that's probably because I have not yet gotten a fighter up to a high enough level where AC becomes irrelevant yet). I do, however, have a couple of low-level fighter and paladin type characters that are wearing armor with decent stats but ugly skins (meanwhile, I have really cool armor with crappy stats banked in the hopes that I will be able to swap skins one day).

[Nightbreeze]

I agree with Khanyth. Asking for robes to look like full plate is like asking for my halfling to look like a warforged.

They do, however, have the skins and the means to color the skins. Why can't we just get a simple interface that allows us to "Select Full Plate Skin," then "Select Primary Color," and "Select Accent Color One," and so on. I could log on to my sorcerer, select a robe or simply dye my current dragontouched robe to not look like everyone else's.

[Monroid]

I believe DDO could get more roleplay mechanics. Looking like a fighter with a full plate armour instead of a fighter wearing pyamas would be nice.

The armour slots can also be class restricted, like a fighter can get full plate as looks but an arcane can not.

Althoutgh I'd like the *real* customization system, this one looks interesting enough

[dkyle]

I agree with Khanyth. Asking for robes to look like full plate is like asking for my halfling to look like a warforged.

Seems to me race matters a heck of a lot more to a characters mechanical properties than what type of armor they wear. About the only mechanics that really matter, in terms of appearance jiving with mechanics, for armor, are ASF, Evasion-capability, and Monk-centeredness. The "must be proficient" rule would prevent a lot of cases of those kinds of inconsistencies, if they really bother you that much.

[Alabore]

I agree with Khanyth. Asking for robes to look like full plate is like asking for my halfling to look like a warforged.

If I may gently chime in on this particular issue, it has been mentioned before over a different thread.

Armour appearance in DDO is not tied to a specific item type.
There is no such thing as "full plate" look, not in the same sense it used to be in NWN1 or NWN2.

In DDO you get 4 basic body models: vests, robes, outfits and "form-fitting".
The latter is the most widely employed model - providing foundation for suits from padded to plate.

Same with textures: textures get recycled. Extensively.
The same textures provide skins to armour from - again padded to plate.

Asking for a specific skin/model to be tied to an armour type actually goes against current appearance rules - and it is actually curtailing our options in customising appearance.

Will some players "disguise" their outfits as plate, if only given the chance?
Maybe - but it is so harmless that requiring people to follow YOUR rules in choosing appearance, borders on requesting naming rules to be enforced on live servers.

The real issue, cloth-under-the-guise-of-plate sprang from, is, outfits and robes look ANYTHING but martial enough to look good on monk splashes.
Simple as that.
Allow complete freedom in picking models, gear and textures, and most players will choose bits that look good on their monk splashes, while still resembling cloth armour.

Please do consider how armour appearance works in DDO, before asking for limitations that might backfire on us badly.
Current armour appearance kits already default to some basic body types - and general consensus is, it would be better if they did not.

Why?
Because some body types would look better as something else.
What is the point in customising armour, if your body type defaults to some arbitrarily chosen models, which don't even match with armour weight?

I would urge players to consider the cloth-under-the-guise-of-plate argument as a far fetched hyperbole.
We need freedom in choosing models and textures.
Not some arbitrary rule that will only curtail our options for no tangible benefit.

[BattleCircle]

I just want to be able to put a great lookin armor skin on my crappy looking armor.

There are some great skins in this game in all classes of armor, but the best armor within a class has the same skin.

It would be rather simple to allow us to slot an armor appearance, Within the armor class.

light, medium, heavy, robes. thats all, thats it, nothing complicated about it.

If its a money thing then charge us for the slot, per character if you want to. I wouldn't complain about that a bit.

[Garrum]

These people that are against non-armor type restricted cosmetics are against it simply to be an opposing force. This has nothing to do with technical limitations, "potential abuses", starter rags, or goofy plate wearing sorcs, and everything to do with them just wanting to try and shoot down other people's ideas and suggestions. The only reason to oppose unrestricted cosmetic armor that is legitimate is PvP, and this game's PvP is illegitimate from the word go, so it doesn't count.

[IronClan]

The argument against allowing pajamas to look like heavier armor and players to look how ever they want can be summed up thusly:

I do not like chili with beans... No one else should be allowed to eat chili with beans.

Thank you

[hityawithastick]

The argument against allowing pajamas to look like heavier armor and players to look how ever they want can be summed up thusly:

I do not like chili with beans... No one else should be allowed to eat chili with beans.

Thank you

/applause

[Alabore]

The only reason to oppose unrestricted cosmetic armor that is legitimate is PvP.

It has been suggested before: devs could simply code PvP areas so that cosmetic kits get disabled when you enter and re-enabled when you leave.
LoTRO works that way.



...

Also: only a few textures/over-meshes look metallic enough to suggest genuine heavy armour.
Most could qualify as light or medium - and a few would actually look better as leather/cloth types.

After all, in original DnD rules, heavy armour is usually such: most suits from DDO would not qualify as heavy enough for the AC they provide.
Breastplates, for instance, feature extra bits such as helms, gauntles and greaves.
Lighter leather bits in a metal armour lower the overall AC while raising overall body coverage.

Let us not dismiss the rule of cool when assessing AC: if we can accept chainmail bikini to provide meaningful AC, while covering the bare minimum to stay sexy, we could also accept cloth armour to look heavier and more covering, if it looks cool and martial.

Finally: maybe only ONE player implied that he would actually make his characters' cloth armour look like plate, if given the chance.
But there are more creative, harmless possibilities.
Deceit is really the least concern, and waving hard-limits on appearance would simply make it easier for devs to code gear, and for players to customise to their hearts' content.

[IronClan]

It has been suggested before: devs could simply code PvP areas so that cosmetic kits get disabled when you enter and re-enabled when you leave.
LoTRO works that way.

Do they even need to though? I'm not a "PvP'er" and I wouldn't be one in any D&D based game because D&D has always scoffed at balancing characters (with good reason, too much balance leads to lame characters and linear predictable "same ol same ol" character development al la WoW). I constrain my "PvP" to games that are actually meant for it like FPS shooters where you can't simply out level your opponent.

What does a robe or outfit tell you?

• He has low AC = WRONG, or maybe... who knows
• He has high Dex = maybe, maybe not
• He has low Strength = no
• He's a monk splash = nope but maybe
• He's got damage reduction = maybe
• He's got elemental resists = maybe
• He doesn't have arcane spell failure... okay yeah

That's pretty much it... It tells you nothing that fundamentally useful, a character in pajamas can be any class or build in the game and have any advantage or weakeness except ASF.

Okay what does armor tell us:

• Has high AC = probably not but maybe add a tower shield and he at least THINKS he has high AC
• Has low dex... maybe maybe not
• Doesn't have evasion, maybe if it's not Mithral.. okay no because you can't see that.
• Has ASF... no because there's Twilight Mithral and Elven fluidity and gloves
• has some sort of armor check penalty to skills = maybe but who cares in PvP

Okay so even if DDO had a thriving PvP comunity (shut yo mouth!) there isn't any reasonable, strategic or tactical information to be gleaned from what someone is wearing so it is pointless to force people to look like what their wearing EVEN IN PvP.

All ignoring the fact that Eberron is high magic and has spells and item effects that can make any outfit look like anything. They can make a **** spider wagon people! Surely they can manage to make pajamas look like something a fighter would wear

So lore appropriate + majority want it = Make it happen Turbine and stop hiding behind a rock and say something about this already