The new age of gimps

[jydog100]

Bah!

I dual wield Halfling Shintao Monks...each bypasses DR on it's own and does an extra 2d10 of "WHOOOPIIEEEE!! We're on a Tilt-a-Whirl!" damage.

LMAO....you owe me a new keyboard!!!!!

[PopeJual]

If +1 Holy khopesh was the best thing you could found, you have not tried hard. I just checked Amrath vendor and there was +2 Holy Khopesh of Backstabbing +3. Not the best weapon in the world but it is cheap and adds +5 damage to each hand.

Beat that with a kukri.

You missed the point of my post.

AtomicMew said that a +1 Holy Khopesh of nothing would beat the Metalline of PG trash that I had found cheap on the Auction House.

If your damage bonus that gets multiplied on critical hits is *really* good, that's true.

Just having a better critical profile isn't enough, though. You need to have something really good to let that critical profile shine. If you're a capped Barbarian, then there's a good chance that you can get better results with a very good Khopesh that doesn't break DR than with a trash weapon that does. It's certainly not a guarantee, though, and you will pay just as much (or more) for that very good Khopesh as you would for a DR breaker with a 20/x3 or 18-20/x2 profile.


I wasn't saying that a +1 Metalline of Pure Good Kukri would beat every other weapon in the game that doesn't break DR. That's obviously not the case when a LitII weapon ends up just barely beating a MinII of the same weapon in the Shroud on Normal. What I was saying is that you need to actually have the Strength and other bonus damage to make up the difference if you want to do better than some generic Metalline of PG weapon.

Let's actually do the comparison between a +2 Holy Khopesh of Backstabbing +5 paired with a +2 Holy Khopesh of Seeker +4 vs. a pair of +2 Metalline Kukri of PG.


+2 Holy Khopesh of with Seeker +4 and Backstab +5 vs. +2 Metalline Kukri of Pure Good.

Assumptions -
Improved Crit: Slashing
All critical hits are confirmed
B = bonus from Strength, etc. added to base damage
Q = bonuses from other sources that are not multiplied on crits

Khopesh
1 MISS
2-16 2d6 Holy +5 Backstab + 1d8 + 2 base + B + Q -15
17-20 2d6 Holy +5 Backstab + (1d8 + 2 base +10 Seeker + B) * 3 + Q -15

2-16 averages (7 + 3 + 6.5 + B + Q - 15) * 15 = 22.5 + 15B + 15Q
17-20 averages [7 + 3 + (6.5 + 4 + B) * 2 + Q - 15] *4 = 22 + 8B +3Q

Total = 44.5 + 23B + 18Q

Kukri
1 MISS
2-14 1d6 Good + 1d4 base + B + Q
15-20 = 1d6 Good + (1d4 + 1 base + B) * 2 + Q

2-14 averages (3.5 + 4.5 + B + Q) * 12 = 96 + 12B + 12Q
15-20 averages [3.5 + (4.5 + B) * 1.5 + Q) * 6 = 61.5 + 9B +6Q

Total = 157.5 + 21B + 18Q

In this case, the pair of Khopeshes would be closer to the the Kukri as long as you are actually getting the Backstab damage because the Backstab on both weapons and the Seeker on both weapons allows the Khopesh to close the gap somewhat. (Edit: used to say 15 damage, but now have fixed mistake with leaving out the 50% fortification) You need 56 damage from Strength, etc. in order to have the pair of Khopeshes pull ahead slightly from the Kukri example.

Once again, I'll say that I'm not trying to tell anyone that they must get a generic Metalline of Pure Good weapon if they want to play in the Shroud. I just think that it's lazy and disrespectful to show up to the fight without actually checking to see if what you're carrying is actually better than what you can find on the AH for less than 30k pp for Two Weapon Fighting.

If you actually have checked to see that what you're carrying will actually do more damage to Harry than a generic 18-20/x3 or 20/x3 MPG weapon, then good for you.

Heck, if your Strength is high enough, then a Carnifex would outperform a MinII Greataxe on Elite. Crit ranges really can make a big difference IF you have enough bonus damage that gets amplified by the crit profile. I just think that people should actually check to see if their assumptions are valid before they dismiss those generic MPG weapons that they can find so cheaply on the AH.

Edit: fixed numbers that were incorrect because I had previously neglected the 50% fortificaiton on N/H/E for Harry.

[Chai]

Bah!

I dual wield Halfling Shintao Monks...each bypasses DR on it's own and does an extra 2d10 of "WHOOOPIIEEEE!! We're on a Tilt-a-Whirl!" damage.

Yeap, exactly. I think its funny that when I talk about THF people think I am referring to greatswords and greataxes.

[PopeJual]

Just because I've been curious about the matchup between Carnifex and MinII for a while now, I thought I'd actually run the numbers.

MinII

Assumptions:
All crits are confirmed
B = bonus damage added to base damage that benefits from the weapon's crit profile
Q = bonus damage that is not multiplied on a crit
Acid Resistance 50 means Acid damage can be ignored


MinII Greataxe
3d6 + 5 base damage
2d6 Holy
0d6 Acid damage because of Acid Resistance
+1d4 slicing
19-20/x3 crit profile


Carnifex
1d12 + 2 -35 base damage
17-20/x3 crit profile

MinII Greataxe
2-18 = (2d6 Holy + 1d4 Slicing + 3d6 Base + 5 + B + Q) * 17
19-20 = [2d6 Holy + 1d4 Slicing + (3d6 + 5 + B) * 2 + Q] * 2

average damage 2-18 = (7 + 2.5 + 10.5 + 5 + B + Q) * 17 = 425 + 17B +17Q
average damage 19-20 = [7 + 2.5 + (10.5 + 5 + B) * 2 + Q] * 2 = 40.5 + 4B + 2Q
Total average damage = 465.5 + 21 B + 19Q

Carnifex
2-16 = (1d12 + 2 + B + Q - 35) * 15
17-20 = [(1d12 + 2 + B) * 2 + Q -35] * 4

average damage 2-16 = (6.5 + 2 + B + Q - 35) * 15 = -397.5 + 15B + 15Q
average damage 17-20 = [(6.5 + 2 + B) * 2 + Q - 35] = -72 + 8B + 4Q
total average damage = -469.5 + 23B + 19Q

If B = 468 or better, then you will be better off using a Carnifex in the Shroud on Elite than using a MinII Greataxe.

If anyone gets a Strength, etc. bonus of 468 or better, please let me know.



EDIT: I forgot to factor in the 50% fortification!
I'll go back and add that in later today, but that is only going to end up favoring the generic Metalline of Pure Good weapons even more over a nice Khopesh that doesn't break DR.
Edit the second: fixed the formulae with the proper addition of the 50% fortification.

[Krag]

+2 Holy Khopesh of with Seeker +4 and Backstab +5 vs. +2 Metalline Kukri of Pure Good.

Nice try but Seeker +4 is not a suffix you should look for. Grab some cheap GLOB/GEOB or even the half-assed MoPG weapon in your off-hand. Without full Str bonus inferior crit profile won't hurt that much.

[NeutronStar]

Nice try but Seeker +4 is not a suffix you should look for. Grab some cheap GLOB/GEOB or even the half-assed MoPG weapon in your off-hand. Without full Str bonus inferior crit profile won't hurt that much.

You still missed Pope's point.

[Krag]

You still missed Pope's point.

Which is? Grab some MoPG junk and call it a day?

[Chai]

If anyone gets a Strength, etc. bonus of 459 or better, please let me know.

Are you referring to damage bonus overall, like when you open up your inventory panel and it states you do 3d6 + 70 - is total damage mod the number you are referring to?

[PopeJual]

Which is? Grab some MoPG junk and call it a day?

My point was that you should have the decency to get AT LEAST MoPG junk before calling it a day.

How about if you pick a reasonably affordable weapon that you think is better than some cheap MoPG junk and then actually check to see if it really is better than the MoPG junk? If you don't feel like crunching the numbers yourself, then just name any weapon that you feel like naming and I'll crunch through the numbers for you.

[PopeJual]

Are you referring to damage bonus overall, like when you open up your inventory panel and it states you do 3d6 + 70 - is total damage mod the number you are referring to?

The value for B that I had in the calculations was any damage that gets multiplied on a critical hit beyond what the weapon itself offers (since I already included the weapon's damage in the calculation to start).

So, that would include Strength, Weapon Specialization, Any Seeker bonus that one weapon would get that they other weapon wouldn't, etc.

It would not include the base damage or the + on the weapons themselves since those are already included.

[Sholia]

And another thing to keep in mind whether you want to call me elitist or whatever....the truth is once this game went F2P the level of inexperienced/poor players rose. This is simply a fact you cannot ignore. When it was pre-EU..new players were nurtured through.....now it's a melting pot, and many new players are simply left to the wolves or lack the integrity to deserve being worth a veterans time.

As a newish VIP (off and on over the last year, never getting very far), the biggest problem I have is the number of LFMs out there that are "NO NEWBS", "KNO QUEST", "DUN FAIL", zergs, farms, speed runs, favor runs, be flagged, etc. Often, it feels exactly like being left to the wolves since it's clear that they are looking for players have been through the content repeatedly already, not someone like myself, still stumbling along for the first time. Some PUGs are great because they clearly seem to be lead by someone with experience and patience, and not only do I end up swimming in XP and loot, but I get to learn how the run works. But many others are lacking in one of those two key traits, and those runs, more often than not, are disasters - both from a repair aspect as well as simple enjoyment.

So I guess one could see it as the quality of players has dropped, but isn't that to be expected when the segment of the community with the majority of the experience has largely climbed the ladder and pulled it up after them?

EDIT: Should have checked the post date. I see the conversation has moved elsewhere.

[TheDjinnFor]

So when do you have to be min lvl 18 to complete shroud or even be allowed in a shroud group. Lol things have gotten so sad and the players are that bad that you can no longer do shroud with charactors of the appropriate lvl for the quest range. Does anyone remember when you had to be a decent player and by the time you were lvl 13 you where flagged for shroud and running it?

The new world of must be over powered to run a quest is pathetic and sad!

Personally, I'll let them into a normal shroud if they pass any of the following requirements.

-If I know you or your guild, welcome in!
-If you're wearing Heavy Fort, and are a melee with at least 400 hp, welcome in!
-If you're wearing Heavy Fort and are a non-melee with at least 250 hp, welcome in!
-If you're wearing tier 3 GS, welcome in!
-If you can link me your Heavy Fort item, a DR beater and either a Portal Basher or a Vorpal weapon, welcome in!

I don't think these requirements are too tough for anyone to meet: either I know you know what you're doing (i.e. you're in a good guild or have tier 3 GS already), or you have enough HP to last without jeopardizing the run, or you have enough DPS to contribute to the run, you can be in my shroud.

Ever since I've been consistently applying these rules, I've not had any trouble with any shroud PUGs. I also know what I'm doing: I can give people step-by-step instructions in a worst-case scenario sort of thing.

[Chai]

And another thing to keep in mind whether you want to call me elitist or whatever....the truth is once this game went F2P the level of inexperienced/poor players rose. This is simply a fact you cannot ignore. When it was pre-EU..new players were nurtured through.....now it's a melting pot, and many new players are simply left to the wolves or lack the integrity to deserve being worth a veterans time.

The fact that this happened is a fact that we cannot ignore, at the time that it happened, correct.

The fact that this is still the case, is our own **** fault, for not investing the time to teach these people to play for this long of a period of time.

[NeutronStar]

Which is? Grab some MoPG junk and call it a day?

He spelled it out quite clearly:

You missed the point of my post.

AtomicMew said that a +1 Holy Khopesh of nothing would beat the Metalline of PG trash that I had found cheap on the Auction House.

And Pope proved conclusively AtomicMew was incorrect.

[Elyanna]

Bah!

I dual wield Halfling Shintao Monks...each bypasses DR on it's own and does an extra 2d10 of "WHOOOPIIEEEE!! We're on a Tilt-a-Whirl!" damage.

Stinking smelly dorf knows he can't out dps us so he had to twist his fat grubby mitts in a way to make him look good.

[Solmage]

The fact that this is still the case, is our own **** fault, for not investing the time to teach these people to play for this long of a period of time.

Two small details:

1) Last I checked, I'm not being paid a salary by Turbine to make sure it's new customers learn to play the game.

2) Nobody taught me, nor any of the real vets, how to do anything: We learned it all ourselves, and in a game that was 10x harder than it is today.

When you add those 2 details to the fact that it's MAYBE 1 in 10 of new players who even WANT to learn, (see the discussion re: whether they should use metalline of pure good, or not, and the forumnite who will go on about how you don't need them to beat the shroud on normal, blah blah blah) and frankly it's a wasted effort.

It's not like our server didn't have a guild specifically created by the experienced vets to train new people. And to what avail in the grand scheme? None.

So now the result is what we expected: With the removal of the death penatly, the high levels are filled with people without any skill who rely on gear to be mediocre, and those are today's 'good players' - the rest are even worse, a lot worse.

I did hear a good one though: Did you know it's impossible to do VoD Elite without being at least level 18, because you can't hit the monsters otherwise? ::laugh::

[Hordo]

Stinking smelly dorf knows he can't out dps us so he had to twist his fat grubby mitts in a way to make him look good.

There is no way you can out DPS (Doughnuts Per Second) Me or Stainer...bring it on Halfling.

[muffinlad]

There is no way you can out DPS (Doughnuts Per Second) Me or Stainer...bring it on Halfling.

When I first read this, I thought you said Shatner, not Stainer. Then "woha....Hordo is hanging out with Shatner?"....then I got better.

Doughtnuts....hmmmmm.


muffinhomer

[Hordo]

When I first read this, I thought you said Shatner, not Stainer. Then "woha....Hordo is hanging out with Shatner?"....then I got better.

Doughtnuts....hmmmmm.


muffinhomer

That would be awesome...


Two Jews...


One dozen doughnuts...


Having one crammed up my nose the first time I ask him about his hairpiece in Star Trek II...

[AtomicMew]

He spelled it out quite clearly:



And Pope proved conclusively AtomicMew was incorrect.

Actually, my point was that moderate unnamed loot found from leveling would beat out crappy DR beaters from the AH, which means that only expensive ~300k DR beaters would be worth purchasing. I think PopeJaul proved that quite nicely in the above post comparing holy of backstabbing and holy of seeker khopeshes vs. MoPG daggers, if his math is correct.

The larger point was that it was unrealistic to expect new players to spend that kind of money... which is why most people don't run at level, which is why most leaders don't automatically accept level 16's, which is why the OP is wrong).

The bit about a holy khopesh vs. a MoPG dagger was admittedly incorrect and based on my own incorrect intuition.