The new age of gimps

[MeliCat]

disavowed and the dear OP.

i guess i qualify as a completely gimp and pathetic and lazy player then.


i started 6th oct 2009. my little barb was like 10 before someone kind watching me noticed i didn't have any form of fort. i got given something straight away (v kind) and did what i could about heavy as soon as i could (my little barb went running confusedly through that orchard but i don't think i got heavy fort

and i don't think i knew what GFL was until i was like 15. i got told what it was and went straight to the AH to buy it.

i got flagged 'cos running with vets for shroud and ran from like 16 with a blank and then eventually 20 and running for about 2 months only with tier 2 not realising until after i finally did tier 3 that it was transmuting.

it got suggested to me that a double neg cloak would be good to have. very next shroud run i went and did that.

it took a while for someone to explain to me and therefore notice how mobs flank me and how to play smart with aggro and the other team members (still learning tricks)

oh what a little mana sponge my dwarf was.


guys *please* realise that there is a **LOT** of information in this game. it's like information overload. you can go on and on and on and on about 'oh they should have read it in the forums/wiki/compendium/asked' but there is so *much* information. what is important and what should i look for?

i mean i started this game barely able to WASD.

i've said all along that the way information is *presented* in this game to new players absolutely sucks. and it does. i got halfway through writing up a walkthrough thread of the the kind *i* would have loved to have seen when i first started. a real hand holder thread. i love that kind of information in other games that i play. for me it doesn't detract from the experience. and in the case of DDO and my personal approach to it, a v simplistic walkthrough thread or information would just have made this whole thing a lot less painful and shameful.


so you be hating on those gimps, you be hating on me

[Elation]

disavowed and the dear OP.

i guess i qualify as a completely gimp and pathetic and lazy player then.


i started 6th oct 2009. my little barb was like 10 before someone kind watching me noticed i didn't have any form of fort. i got given something straight away (v kind) and did what i could about heavy as soon as i could (my little barb went running confusedly through that orchard but i don't think i got heavy fort

and i don't think i knew what GFL was until i was like 15. i got told what it was and went straight to the AH to buy it.

i got flagged 'cos running with vets for shroud and ran from like 16 with a blank and then eventually 20 and running for about 2 months only with tier 2 not realising until after i finally did tier 3 that it was transmuting.

it got suggested to me that a double neg cloak would be good to have. very next shroud run i went and did that.

it took a while for someone to explain to me and therefore notice how mobs flank me and how to play smart with aggro and the other team members (still learning tricks)

oh what a little mana sponge my dwarf was.


guys *please* realise that there is a **LOT** of information in this game. it's like information overload. you can go on and on and on and on about 'oh they should have read it in the forums/wiki/compendium/asked' but there is so *much* information. what is important and what should i look for?

i mean i started this game barely able to WASD.

i've said all along that the way information is *presented* in this game to new players absolutely sucks. and it does. i got halfway through writing up a walkthrough thread of the the kind *i* would have loved to have seen when i first started. a real hand holder thread. i love that kind of information in other games that i play. for me it doesn't detract from the experience. and in the case of DDO and my personal approach to it, a v simplistic walkthrough thread or information would just have made this whole thing a lot less painful and shameful.


so you be hating on those gimps, you be hating on me

Heres the thing its not just researching forums or such you got told you could use an item and as you said you went and got it as soon as you could, we disavowed and myself run numerous training runs where we will take everyone and explain an entire raid from start to finish step by step and if you dont have the perfect gear we dont care we will advise on what could be useful and may even loan out something we have or give outright if its like a gfl belt or something. The point of this thread isnt about how newbs play its about how most not even just newbs and such believe that you must be 18-20 or 17-20 to complete raids like the shroud hound and Vod on any of the difficulties. The thing is with out having the raid be a bit of a challange how are you supposed to learn to survive and adapt if the only thing you can say is ooops we failed because we didnt know how to recover with 5 dead or some such nonsence. Doing the raids while they are a challange forces you to bring up your game play and learn solid techniqus notice i am not claiming my own as the best to each there own to learn how tio fill the roll when a less the optimal situation arises aslong as they learn.

[krud]

The items I found weren't perfect but they would work and can carry a person thru the Shroud. Especially since we're talking Shroud at level 16-18 not 13-16.

"carry a person thru the shroud"?? What's that supposed to mean? Not look like a total piker. It's still considered undergeared and nothing like what we had when we were capped at 16.

Don't give me they need armor, because they don't. No real need for armor, your gonna get hit reagardless. You need fort more than AC, and and you need HP as well. I can keep most toons up spamming Mass cure light and mod w/ an occasional serious even if they're naked. As long as they have the HP I can keep them up regardless of AC. If they don't have HP that's their fault for not rerolling as we did. They'd rather just pike their way to 20 then TR. We didn't have that choice. We had no other choice but to reroll.

and finding pug healers capable of doing this reliably is easy? btw - do you think a newb who has had servicable AC up until now will readily accept dumping it for a cheap robe, just because some vet tells him to. Saying "just accept you'll get hit everytime" won't go over well, especially when mana sponges are shown such disdain throughout the levels.

Here's what I found on the AH.

Gfl belt proof against poison 5K plat. Con 1 GFL belt 3k plat.

Con necklace +6 5.4k plat and 7k plat. ML 15

Str +6 bracers 9K plat and str gloves 6K plat. ML 15

So low end total 14.4K plat. High end 19K plat.

most of those look like starting bids. Actual purchase or buyouts are probably higher from what i've seen. Also remember back in the day you only needed transmuting for a harry beater, so it was even easier for us to find good servicable harry beaters. My first ones were +5 transmuting khopeshes of righteousness. Not gonna find any +5 harry beaters that easily.

So all total less than 25Kpp to get a toon Shroud ready. Don't give me it's to expensive. They will get 25K in loot from their first Shroud run alone. Maybe that's why my buddies have been able to be geared and run Shroud runs for full XP at level 16-18. They are newbs, not noobs, they put in the effort and improve their skills and knowledge of the game by reading on here and asking questions.

So again I can't disagree more. Show me proof of why it can't be done. As I've shown you proof of how it can be done in less than 15 minutes of research. Stop enabling these noobs and making excuses for them. Emili mad a valid statement above. We were doing this at 13-16 and we didn't have gear or the knowledge when it first came out. In less than 3 months we were having contests to see who could get done the fastest. Mind you Harry beaters were easier to aquire but being level 16-20 more than makes up for that (<- not really).

So as the OP stated. It's the "new age of gimps" and it's a very true statement.

Yes, it's possible for a newb to be minimally geared for the shroud with the proper guidance. It's still considered undergeared, especially in the dps department. I wouldn't go comparing them to our level 16s back in the day. They'll survive in a good group where others pull most of the weight, but in a random pug, I would understand the reluctance of a leader to take them along.

Quit comparing our level 13-16s to newb toons now. It's a different dynamic than back then. We had multiple capped toons, these are people first time main toons. That was end game, so people at cap focused on it. Now, it's merely a stepping stone you pass on the way. Vets regularly formed and ran pugs. Most vets have moved on to farming epic now. I'm not saying it can't be done, i just don't expect the average newb of that level to be at the same place we were when the shroud was it. That being said, i'd still welcome them along.

[Warinx]

Why would you even do the shroud flagging quest, at lvl 13? the best level to do it is lvl 17 xp wise, lvl 13 you should be doing Wizking or Giant Hold ;P

You're just slowing down your climb to 20 by doing i that way.

[Disavowed]

disavowed and the dear OP.

i guess i qualify as a completely gimp and pathetic and lazy player then.


i started 6th oct 2009. my little barb was like 10 before someone kind watching me noticed i didn't have any form of fort. i got given something straight away (v kind) and did what i could about heavy as soon as i could (my little barb went running confusedly through that orchard but i don't think i got heavy fort

and i don't think i knew what GFL was until i was like 15. i got told what it was and went straight to the AH to buy it.

i got flagged 'cos running with vets for shroud and ran from like 16 with a blank and then eventually 20 and running for about 2 months only with tier 2 not realising until after i finally did tier 3 that it was transmuting.

it got suggested to me that a double neg cloak would be good to have. very next shroud run i went and did that.

it took a while for someone to explain to me and therefore notice how mobs flank me and how to play smart with aggro and the other team members (still learning tricks)

oh what a little mana sponge my dwarf was.


guys *please* realise that there is a **LOT** of information in this game. it's like information overload. you can go on and on and on and on about 'oh they should have read it in the forums/wiki/compendium/asked' but there is so *much* information. what is important and what should i look for?

i mean i started this game barely able to WASD.

i've said all along that the way information is *presented* in this game to new players absolutely sucks. and it does. i got halfway through writing up a walkthrough thread of the the kind *i* would have loved to have seen when i first started. a real hand holder thread. i love that kind of information in other games that i play. for me it doesn't detract from the experience. and in the case of DDO and my personal approach to it, a v simplistic walkthrough thread or information would just have made this whole thing a lot less painful and shameful.


so you be hating on those gimps, you be hating on me

Exactly the opposite. You've put in the effort to listen and learn. You're open minded enough to belive you don't have to be level 20 to succeed in completing Hound or Shroud. That means you were a newb not a noob.

When someone noticed needed a heavy fort item you listened and accepted what was offered. I have (and I guarantee you I'm not the only one) offered dozens of noobs the same advice and fort items as well. I can't tell how many times I've been told to go pound sand. They don't need fort they want their X item of lemeness for that spot.

Just 2 days ago a barb in our lowbie Shroud run asks for barkskin from a ranger. We ask why and explain to him agout AC vs HP etc. His reply was of course go pound sand. Funny, guess who died first in the part 4? The barb. Why? No HP. But his AC was great.

Meli the OP was making a point. The mindset of this new age of gimps is "it can't be done unless you're capped". Or you can't DPS unless you're a FTR or BARB. LFM's need dps and their only looking for BARB or FTR. His vent was more about the mindset of these people.

Why because their close minded gimps. You can send them a tell to their looking for dps LFM explaining your build with your STR and HP as I've done several times. I'll send a tell saying If you'll take a str based ranger (36 str walk around) w/ dual min II khopeshes and 500+ hp who's ran said quest 100's of times, I'll join. You're still going to get declined most times if it's not a vet. Replies go along the line of no rangers can't do enough damage as str builds they need to use bows to get damage or the better one. That's impossible a ranger can't do that.

This is more of a mindset not a gear thing. They think the only way one can possibly be geared out is if their capped. They think the only way a toon has a chance to do DPS is if their capped. Agin when did it become mmindset that a caster MUST have wail to get into Shroud. What happened to Finger? Again all mind set of this new age of gimps.

Meli you don't have the mindset you listen. I can send a poster of an LFM saying I don't have wail but I have finger and more than enough mana/experience in there to get thru with finger, and I'm most likely still going to be declined. That's what makes you diffrent than that type of person you're open minded and don't think you know everything afer running one toon to level 18-20. You're right there's a ton to learn on here. I always say "one could get a degree in DDO". The ones who listen are at least going to DDO college. The others are NOOBS.

[hermespan]

Make your own group stop itching about how others run theres

QFT

For real...

Anyone can put up their own LFM.

[Elation]

QFT

For real...

Anyone can put up their own LFM.

Hey special read the post thats what i did so qft something else!

[Gornn]

**** look at that got a shot off on Gornn, Stainer, and Hordo in one thread. Nice!

You're shootin' blanks, son.

[Elation]

Why would you even do the shroud flagging quest, at lvl 13? the best level to do it is lvl 17 xp wise, lvl 13 you should be doing Wizking or Giant Hold ;P

You're just slowing down your climb to 20 by doing i that way.

Not really if your really pushing through the power lvling its less then two weeks 1-20 on a none tr toon and there is a ton of xp all over the place so when you do them its up to you. I hate when people try and say where people should get there xp from.

[Ghaldar]

Why would you even do the shroud flagging quest, at lvl 13? the best level to do it is lvl 17 xp wise, lvl 13 you should be doing Wizking or Giant Hold ;P

You're just slowing down your climb to 20 by doing i that way.

Because those of us who have played for awhile are used to doing things under leveled as we used to get a level bonus?

[krud]

Meli the OP was making a point. The mindset of this new age of gimps is "it can't be done unless you're capped". Or you can't DPS unless you're a FTR or BARB. LFM's need dps and their only looking for BARB or FTR. His vent was more about the mindset of these people.

Why because their close minded gimps. You can send them a tell to their looking for dps LFM explaining your build with your STR and HP as I've done several times. I'll send a tell saying If you'll take a str based ranger (36 str walk around) w/ dual min II khopeshes and 500+ hp who's ran said quest 100's of times, I'll join. You're still going to get declined most times if it's not a vet. Replies go along the line of no rangers can't do enough damage as str builds they need to use bows to get damage or the better one. That's impossible a ranger can't do that.

This is more of a mindset not a gear thing. They think the only way one can possibly be geared out is if their capped. They think the only way a toon has a chance to do DPS is if their capped. Agin when did it become mmindset that a caster MUST have wail to get into Shroud. What happened to Finger? Again all mind set of this new age of gimps.

I agree with this assessment. I'm gonna have a real hard time with my ftr/fvs/rog experiment, even though he's probably better suited than most of the newbs declining him.

I think it boils down to their experience when running with vets. They see them breeze thru with wail and loaded up with GS and portal beaters, and think 'that's the way it's supposed to be done". They haven't had the luxury of running it like we did.

You guys expect newbs to be vets. I expect newbs to be newbs.

[Elation]

I agree with this assessment. I'm gonna have a real hard time with my ftr/fvs/rog experiment, even though he's probably better suited than most of the newbs declining him.

I think it boils down to their experience when running with vets. They see them breeze thru with wail and loaded up with GS and portal beaters, and think 'that's the way it's supposed to be done". They haven't had the luxury of running it like we did.

You guys expect newbs to be vets. I expect newbs to be newbs.

Nope i expect newbs to be what they are.

[krud]

Nope i expect newbs to be what they are.

If that's true then nothing that the OP brought up in this thread should surprise you. You should expect it.

[stainer]

I want to point out that I have seen many new players make it to shroud for the first time and admit so during the fill. People will ask some questions, determine what equipment they have and provide them with with DR breakers in needed. I have do so myself. @Melicat - I started playing the same time you did. We both know that asking questions and admitting you are new goes a long way to getting from being a so-so player to being a player that is the top 25%. Some of the people that you see posting here are the ones that helped me the most.

[Elation]

If that's true then nothing that the OP brought up in this thread should surprise you. You should expect it.

Since i am the op lol i feel its just amusing! Its not a public out cry but its happening alot where Ill put up an lfm and get a tell saying your not high enough to run that or why wont you take a higher lvl toon. The reason being its fun to challange your charactor and group sometimes. The idea is its just sad that the current newbs i guess as you call them and those that feel they are vets believe you can run shrud below the cr of the quest or shouldnt take on orchard quests till 14 or gianthold till min 12 or any of the new era of you should do these at this lvl people. Do the quests when you want to not when someone else tell you that you should. Oh before i hear put up your own lfms again I do that i fill them we complete the quest/raid is it always perfect run no but it is a learning experince.

[SiliconShadow]

I live on khyber and MOST groups are lv17~20, this is right level, it is a little harder than it used to be, damage went up you cannot deny that, harry hits harder.

TRs most likely will never want to do it below level WE WANT OUR XP!

First time around have most likely levelled so fast they don't have the items or stats to be of use below level, let them hit SOS first etc..

The shroud changed, the game changed players changed, change is innevitible.

[Elation]

I live on khyber and MOST groups are lv17~20, this is right level, it is a little harder than it used to be, damage went up you cannot deny that, harry hits harder.

TRs most likely will never want to do it below level WE WANT OUR XP!

First time around have most likely levelled so fast they don't have the items or stats to be of use below level, let them hit SOS first etc..

The shroud changed, the game changed players changed, change is innevitible.

See you fall into that catagory of why i made this post, your views are just that we have no trouble completing at lvl 15-17 or even 14-16. So your point is kind of mute. If you cant find enough xp for your tr then your not doing enough quests lol you do realize there is enough xp in the game to hit 20 on a tr without even stepping foot in the vale, the orchard, or even gianthold if you really want to. Probably dont realize that though.

[taurean430]

Silver longbow at 3,800 plat buyout:



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+3 Silver Bastard Sword of Pure Good, 45K plat buyout:



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+2 Frost Silver light mace of Pure Good, 25k plat buyout:



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There were plenty of other things that I saw that were reasonable, I'm just too lazy to continue screenshotting them. That is as of 5 mins ago... but these somewhat reasonable deals on DR breakers are mixed in with 300k + plat buyouts of similar weapons. In one case that made me chuckle, there are four +5 Metalline Bastard Sword of Pure Good's up there: low price is 135k plat and high is 500k plat. Meanwhile, if you look you will find the +3 Silver Bastard Sword of Pure Good I have a screenie of above.

Heavy fort is available via numerous sources. There isn't any excuse not to have it. Head/Neck/Ring/Belt/Robe slots are easy to find items for. My first toon had it at level 8 without anyone mentioning it's value to me. It's self explanatory, and practically free from at least two sources.

The problem I see with newer players like myself isn't that these things are not available. It's more like being unmotivated to look for stuff you need to make it. Combine that with the tendency of some player to not want to be bothered with a less than ideal, but effective weapon. Get enough of these people in a Shroud run and you will have what I had the other day: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=18

When I started getting interested in running Shroud on my first toon there were similar deals available on serviceable weapons. I used those until I found what I wanted.

[krud]

Since i am the op lol i feel its just amusing! Its not a public out cry but its happening alot where Ill put up an lfm and get a tell saying your not high enough to run that or why wont you take a higher lvl toon. The reason being its fun to challange your charactor and group sometimes. The idea is its just sad that the current newbs i guess as you call them and those that feel they are vets believe you can run shrud below the cr of the quest or shouldnt take on orchard quests till 14 or gianthold till min 12 or any of the new era of you should do these at this lvl people. Do the quests when you want to not when someone else tell you that you should. Oh before i hear put up your own lfms again I do that i fill them we complete the quest/raid is it always perfect run no but it is a learning experince.

I hear you, but again these are newbs we are talking about. There are a lot more of them playing the game now. The definition of newb includes not knowing everything they need to know.

We just went thru a list of things people should have when going into the shroud. What for? To better the chances at success, correct? Well, wouldn't it make sense that a newb would also think that taking higher level characters, taking that barb instead of an unfamiliar multiclass, and so on, would also optimize his chances at success? They just leveled past those earlier levels and are probably very familiar with exactly how gimped they were, and what other newbs at that level were like.

lamenting about the old days when the ratio of vet to newb was much higher is understandable, but expecting them to revert back to those days just ain't gonna happen.

[SiliconShadow]

See you fall into that catagory of why i made this post, your views are just that we have no trouble completing at lvl 15-17 or even 14-16. So your point is kind of mute. If you cant find enough xp for your tr then your not doing enough quests lol you do realize there is enough xp in the game to hit 20 on a tr without even stepping foot in the vale, the orchard, or even gianthold if you really want to. Probably dont realize that though.

Actually I think you will find my point is very valid, people of a new calibre which are the variety we are talking about will still be running around in low end armour, with low end weapons and just about getting by, wondering why people are so uber around them.

I've helped out dozens of people like this and not one before they reach shroud level could ever think about 1v1 a portal let alone the denizens that you will face.

The people of level that are capeable will either run with guild or not want to run because they are a TR and want to wait a little while for the experience.

New people level too quickly and DO not and CANNOT have the items for this unless pimped out and taken to break thier virginity by someone who does know and can help.

People are not around long enough below level to have the relevant items, my points stand valid and they are far from moot as you put it.

The problem arises from the odd person who started a new character who have kitted themselves out with what is needed who are peeved and not being able to join under level, these people should have the nouse to start thier own groups or join up with thier higher level friends to get groups. The issue is NOT with people setting the 17~20 level range for normal shroud runs.