The new age of gimps

[Chai]

We learned the Shroud by doing the Shroud...no one had Harry beaters because we didn't know what was needed yet.

We had transmuters, which were basically the "if nothing else in your inventory breaks DR, this will" weapon. /nerf

We didn't know the puzzles, we took the time to learn those.
We didn't know the spawn pattern of the portals, we took the time to learn those.
We didn't know how to kill the part two lieutenants, we learned how.
We didn't know anything about it, but we actually took the time to learn.

Yeap, how many opportunities are there like this now? We cant stand around and banter this and then not teach people. Showing people how to play this game is like investing in stock shares of never having to group with noobs ever again. When the stock matures and splits enough times, you will then have a decent circle of people to group with who know whats up.

I dont see the majority of experienced players doing this however. What most do, is hang out in their own diminishing circle of old school friends and keep to themselves, but when they need to run a raid they cant short man or want to try a PUG for a change, hilarity ensues, and the end result is these wonderful rant threads we see on the forums about how the quality of play is diminishing.

Why do all these noobs suck? Its because when the floodgates opened after F2P the majority of vets retreated into their shells and invested NOTHING in the quality of play on their servers. When most of their old school friends left, they realized they will have to PUG / make new friends in order to enjoy playing DDO. We are now reaping what was sewed then, and will continue to do so.

I applaud those who do teach people how to play this game, as this is the right approach to the situation.

[Hordo]

We had transmuters, which were basically the "if nothing else in your inventory breaks DR, this will" weapon. /nerf



Yeap, how many opportunities are there like this now? We cant stand around and banter this and then not teach people. Showing people how to play this game is like investing in stock shares of never having to group with noobs ever again. When the stock matures and splits enough times, you will then have a decent circle of people to group with who know whats up.

I dont see the majority of experienced players doing this however. What most do, is hang out in their own diminishing circle of old school friends and keep to themselves, but when they need to run a raid they cant short man or want to try a PUG for a change, hilarity ensues, and the end result is these wonderful rant threads we see on the forums about how the quality of play is diminishing.

Why do all these noobs suck? Its because when the floodgates opened after F2P the majority of vets retreated into their shells and invested NOTHING in the quality of play on their servers. When most of their old school friends left, they realized they will have to PUG / make new friends in order to enjoy playing DDO. We are now reaping what was sewed then, and will continue to do so.

I applaud those who do teach people how to play this game, as this is the right approach to the situation.

I dare say you are correct in that the MAJORITY of vets don't help out, but on Khyber I can think of at least 20, probably over 30, that not only will, but actually go out and intentionally set out to do so via teaching/learning LFMs on a regular basis. Maybe it is a server thing, but the bottom line really is that the inexperienced player who does nothing to make it known that they are inexperienced and desire to be taught some of these things needs to speak up. There is no dearth of opportunities to learn in this game if one simply seeks it out.

[Elyanna]

As a player who had NEVER seriously played an Online game let alone an MMO before I walked into DDO I had doubts about playing this game. What I had experienced in Ultima Online and Neverwinter Nights' online play option had soured me due to PvP and getting ganked as soon as I started to try to play online.

DDO was a change due to the fact that the game doesn't allow that. This allowed me to get into the social aspects of online gaming. Probably for the first Month of the game (yes I am talking March 2006) I was guildless and was using the LFM to learn what I was doing. I met many a helpful player and learned from them. As the years passed I bounced through about 3 guilds but I always had people who either wanted to run the new stuff with me so we could work it out or people who would show me things I didn't notice.

Now 5 years in I take pride in being able to teach the new members of the guild anything I can. I lead training wheels runs for our members and if they don't fill then I open it for the general population. If I see a question in guild chat I'll answer it either in the guild chat or if I'm doing nothing at that time I make a party and talk over voice to help the person. Do I know everything in game? No I don't and if I'm not sure I will preface my advice with not sure but I think or I will say I really don't know and refer them to someone who could know.

[Cannith_Killer_Union]

I was on Thelanis when it took 50 mins + every run.I don't wanna go back to those oooooogly run times so i won't accept anything under 18.Fast runs ftw.That way when we realize we have a gimp or 5,the levels can save us.(More hp and more everything basically - just logic) I hate the shroud after 1000+ runs,do you people think i wanna make it harder or just make it go,period?

[yawumpus]

There seemed to be some seriously mixed messages here.

First, vets moan constantly that newbs won't run shroud at level.
Second, vets moan that newbs can't run shroud (they *gasp* might take longer than one round in part 4).
Third, vets moan about how much harder it was in the day, when they ran four rounds in part 4 and often wiped.

It looks like players haven't changed at all. Simply that expectations of what a good shroud run has, and that more than one round (more like more than 1.25 rounds) is unacceptable. Groups are formed with one healer and one arcane, and woe be the party who exhausts the healer's sp (I could probably coax all but the most ungeared newbs through with 3 or 4 healers).

Although I do have to admit, I am irked at the Orien shroud pug scene. My last completion listed the time as 56 minutes, and I doubt my typical exit via ddoor is much faster. Maybe I need to start leading runs with far less buffs. Also, there was an argument about player skill/knowledge: If the rainbow shows up, your group doesn't have it (seen it a few times recently on Orien).

[Chai]

I dare say you are correct in that the MAJORITY of vets don't help out, but on Khyber I can think of at least 20, probably over 30, that not only will, but actually go out and intentionally set out to do so via teaching/learning LFMs on a regular basis. Maybe it is a server thing, but the bottom line really is that the inexperienced player who does nothing to make it known that they are inexperienced and desire to be taught some of these things needs to speak up. There is no dearth of opportunities to learn in this game if one simply seeks it out.

No, there is no lack of opportunities, what there is, is a lack of an environment that makes newbies want to say its their first shroud (or other raid etc). The reason WHY this environment is as it is, is because of the way these people have been pushed around, kicked from groups, told they are gimp, etc. For every vet we can name who helps people out on a daily basis (I group with quite a few myself), there are likely 10 others who push people around about build choices (no khopesh?, youre gimp bro!!!). /Join LFM "hey guys where is this quest exactly?" /kick.

You and I didnt go through this because when we were new, everyone else was new and learning as well. There was no core group of high end veteran players to teach us or push us around. We had to learn together. There were no self entitled people asking us why the hell we didnt know the quest. There were other people equally as new as us with as many completions as us learning the same raid at the same time. There were no threads on the forums ranting about these noobs not understanding that we were zerging the quest each week. This didnt happen, period.

You and I werent run through the same ringer the noobies of today are, period. We had it harder as far as the actual gameplay was concerned with no casual difficulty, perminent stat debuffs and curses, and less high end gear, but we have it alot easier as far as personal environment is concerned. We didnt have to deal with being interviewed about every gear slot MyDDO shows before getting into a raid. We didnt have to link boss beaters, or meet other rediculous expectations people have for LFMs. Generally speaking, we didnt have to deal with the negative personal environment alot of new players are pushed into these days, especially after MOD 9. How many times were you /kicked back in the day when you joined a quest and asked how to get there?

So yeah, back in the day we walked up hill both ways in 10 feet of snow, but people were alot cooler with eachother because they too had to do the same. You want noobies to ask questions, show that they want to learn, ad reveal they arent fully knowledgable about the quest? We need to cultivate an environment that makes them want to do this. Or not, and just drop a mass bears and a mass bulls during buffing, which will likely show you how many noobies you have in your raid who aint speaking up.

[pSINNa]

No, there is no lack of opportunities, what there is, is a lack of an environment that makes newbies want to say its their first shroud (or other raid etc). The reason WHY this environment is as it is, is because of the way these people have been pushed around, kicked from groups, told they are gimp, etc. For every vet we can name who helps people out on a daily basis (I group with quite a few myself), there are likely 10 others who push people around about build choices (no khopesh?, youre gimp bro!!!). /Join LFM "hey guys where is this quest exactly?" /kick.

You and I didnt go through this because when we were new, everyone else was new and learning as well. There was no core group of high end veteran players to teach us or push us around. We had to learn together. There were no self entitled people asking us why the hell we didnt know the quest. There were other people equally as new as us with as many completions as us learning the same raid at the same time. There were no threads on the forums ranting about these noobs not understanding that we were zerging the quest each week. This didnt happen, period.

You and I werent run through the same ringer the noobies of today are, period. We had it harder as far as the actual gameplay was concerned with no casual difficulty, perminent stat debuffs and curses, and less high end gear, but we have it alot easier as far as personal environment is concerned. We didnt have to deal with being interviewed about every gear slot MyDDO shows before getting into a raid. We didnt have to link boss beaters, or meet other rediculous expectations people have for LFMs. Generally speaking, we didnt have to deal with the negative personal environment alot of new players are pushed into these days, especially after MOD 9. How many times were you /kicked back in the day when you joined a quest and asked how to get there?

So yeah, back in the day we walked up hill both ways in 10 feet of snow, but people were alot cooler with eachother because they too had to do the same. You want noobies to ask questions, show that they want to learn, ad reveal they arent fully knowledgable about the quest? We need to cultivate an environment that makes them want to do this. Or not, and just drop a mass bears and a mass bulls during buffing, which will likely show you how many noobies you have in your raid who aint speaking up.

This ^^ is so true. The disdain and contempt level back in September 2009 was phenomenal. After me and my friends (who all joined together) experienced it in full force for the first few months of our play we stopped grouping outside of our little new group of newbies altogether, it took nearly 6 months (we had our 20's and were ready to find out what this 'raid' thing was all about) before we went outside our little insulatory group at all.

Then the real learning began. That atmosphere has eased off considerably since then (particularly in the last 6 months or so), but still exists to a degree. It doesn't help. It's very rare that i will tell anyone that i only started when the game went f2p in the circles i run in. It still carries the implication that i am a sub-par player.

Most people assume i've been here for years when i group or lead raid, or join raids now. I generally don't burst that bubble.

Funny eh?

Coit out~

[AtomicMew]

We learned the Shroud by doing the Shroud...no one had Harry beaters because we didn't know what was needed yet.

We didn't know the puzzles, we took the time to learn those.
We didn't know the spawn pattern of the portals, we took the time to learn those.
We didn't know how to kill the part two lieutenants, we learned how.
We didn't know anything about it, but we actually took the time to learn.

The problem now is that after 5 separate and distinct nerfs to the Shroud making it so easy that it is easily short-manned at or under level while still under geared is very telling.

It tells us that the only way that is happening is that the player base that is currently running it is not taking the time to learn it.

I think you are missing my point.

-No group I've ever been in has failed due to the puzzle round. There will always be someone there who can pick and solve if necessary. It doesn't matter in the slightest if a newb knows the puzzles or not.

-Most times I have failed have solely been due to lacking DPS. But knowing "how" to DPS is so basic. Even the noobiest of noobs knows how turn on auto attack and press tab. The point is, not having DPS is, by and large, about having gear, not knowledge. No one plays Shroud to show off how uber they are. Hardly anyone runs Shroud expecting to be challenged. The point of running Shroud is so that you CAN gear yourself up to run harder content where you can be challenged.

Saying that having a boss beater is about knowledge is wrong and circular. People run shroud so they can GET a boss beater (e.g. min II). You may say "just buy one of the AH" - but boss beaters off the AH can cost upwards of 1-2 LDS in price - more for TWF. For a newbie, it's simply not efficient to do so when it would effectively set them back 5-10 shroud runs before they could make their min II's.

And that's why people don't run this at level. Again, nothing to do with game knowledge, everything to do with gear. Not having gear does not make someone a gimp player.

[yawumpus]

Saying that having a boss beater is about knowledge is wrong and circular. People run shroud so they can GET a boss beater (e.g. min II). You may say "just buy one of the AH" - but boss beaters off the AH can cost upwards of 1-2 LDS in price - more for TWF. For a newbie, it's simply not efficient to do so when it would effectively set them back 5-10 shroud runs before they could make their min II's.

And that's why people don't run this at level. Again, nothing to do with game knowledge, everything to do with gear. Not having gear does not make someone a gimp player.

Kyber must be a weird place where boss beaters never drop. Now that devil assault should be slightly more popular than the last year (it was effectively vip-only before chronoscope), they should be dropping more. I would happily trade a boss beater (holy silver of destruction, possibly another) for just one large devil scale [offer only good on Orien].

I suspect that you are just asking for a "perfect boss beater": a +5 metaline khopesh/rapier/falchon of pure good. I've had better luck finding silver holy maces [of pure good] and silver holy [burst] warhammers (alas, the burst is less helpful when you don't have the imp.crit.blunt feat).

If this is indeed the case, you might want to yell from the rooftops that absolutely nobody should start a first toon as anything other than a paladin (with the odd cleric as well). 30-50 shroud runs (I'm guessing, I think the loot gods hate me) is far too many to pike shroud without a boss beater.

[PopeJual]

Saying that having a boss beater is about knowledge is wrong and circular. People run shroud so they can GET a boss beater (e.g. min II). You may say "just buy one of the AH" - but boss beaters off the AH can cost upwards of 1-2 LDS in price - more for TWF. For a newbie, it's simply not efficient to do so when it would effectively set them back 5-10 shroud runs before they could make their min II's.

Go look on the AH, click on the Weapons dropdown and pick a level range appropriate for your character. Now, search for "metal good" and "holy silver" and "metal flamet" and see what comes up. I guarantee you will find something that bypasses DR/Silver + Good for less than 30k plat.

I just checked now on Argonessen and I found...
+1 Metalline Flametouched Iron handaxe 1900 pp
+1 Metalline Bastard of Pure Good 10k pp
+1 Metalline Dagger of PG 3201 pp
+1 Metalline Dagger of PG 3000 pp
+1 Metalline Dwarven Axe of PG 15k pp
+1 Metalline Light Mace of PG 15k pp
+2 Metalline Dagger of PG 8900 pp
+2 Metalline Kukri of PG 12,450 pp
+5 Metalline Morningstar of PG 65k pp
+1 Holy Burst Silver Short Sword of Tendon Slice 2% 22k pp
+2 Holy Burst Silver Battleaxe of Tendon Slice 2% 12k pp
+2 Holy Burst Silver Dwarven Axe of Shatter +2 2250 pp

I also found a bunch of stuff for 100,000 plat and more, but who says you have to buy the stuff that's hideously overpriced? If you *are* willing to spend 100k, then you can reasonably be able to get a +5 Metalline of Pure Good in whatever weapon type you want except for possibly Khopesh.

That +2 Holy Burst Silver Battleaxe for 12,000 pp is a decent beater for a great price. The +2 Metalline of PG Kukri for 15,450 pp isn't bad for the price, either.

[AtomicMew]

Go look on the AH, click on the Weapons dropdown and pick a level range appropriate for your character. Now, search for "metal good" and "holy silver" and "metal flamet" and see what comes up. I guarantee you will find something that bypasses DR/Silver + Good for less than 30k plat.

I just checked now on Argonessen and I found...
+1 Metalline Flametouched Iron handaxe 1900 pp
+1 Metalline Bastard of Pure Good 10k pp
+1 Metalline Dagger of PG 3201 pp
+1 Metalline Dagger of PG 3000 pp
+1 Metalline Dwarven Axe of PG 15k pp
+1 Metalline Light Mace of PG 15k pp
+2 Metalline Dagger of PG 8900 pp
+2 Metalline Kukri of PG 12,450 pp
+5 Metalline Morningstar of PG 65k pp
+1 Holy Burst Silver Short Sword of Tendon Slice 2% 22k pp
+2 Holy Burst Silver Battleaxe of Tendon Slice 2% 12k pp
+2 Holy Burst Silver Dwarven Axe of Shatter +2 2250 pp

Um.

Notice that none of these are weapon types that are any good? Harry has 15 DR on normal. Most of those weapons are no good at all. You would actually be better off using a plain holy of nothing on a decent weapon type compared to the majority of those weapons.

If you *are* willing to spend 100k, then you can reasonably be able to get a +5 Metalline of Pure Good in whatever weapon type you want except for possibly Khopesh.

I don't know how it is on argo, but it is definitely NOT the case on khyber.

[PopeJual]

Um.

Notice that none of these are weapon types that are any good? Harry has 15 DR on normal. Most of those weapons are no good at all. You would actually be better off using a plain holy of nothing on a decent weapon type compared to the majority of those weapons.

+1 Holy [whatever] of nothing - does 2d6 damage more than +1 [whatever] of nothing and then loses 15 damge to DR. +7 - 15 = -8

+1 Metalline [whatever] of Pure Good - does 1d6 damage more than +1 [whatever] of nothing and then loses 0 damage to DR. +3.5 - 0 = +3.5

How is -8 better than +3.5? I'm sure that you have a point here, but I a completely confused on what that point is.

I don't know how it is on argo, but it is definitely NOT the case on khyber.

I'm not going to dive into Khyber's AH tonight, but I'll take a look tomorrow.

[AtomicMew]

+1 Holy [whatever] of nothing - does 2d6 damage more than +1 [whatever] of nothing and then loses 15 damge to DR. +7 - 15 = -8

+1 Metalline [whatever] of Pure Good - does 1d6 damage more than +1 [whatever] of nothing and then loses 0 damage to DR. +3.5 - 0 = +3.5

How is -8 better than +3.5? I'm sure that you have a point here, but I a completely confused on what that point is.

Compare a holy khopesh of nothing to a metalline dagger of pure good. Even if the dagger wins out, it will probably be so close that it doesn't even matter. Also note that you'll probably have better than holy of nothing by the time you start running shroud, just from random loot.

[PopeJual]

Compare a holy khopesh of nothing to a metalline dagger of pure good. Even if the dagger wins out, it will probably be so close that it doesn't even matter. Also note that you'll probably have better than holy of nothing by the time you start running shroud, just from random loot.

I understand now. I misread your previous post.

I'll do some numbers tomorrow morning on the Kukri and the Battleaxe tomorrow morning if I remember.

[Llewndyn]

I did a shroud with my level 16 cleric a few months back. First life with no gear, personally felt like it was a pike run. :P But then again I think healing is a piking job anyways.

Our group was pretty zesty though, so the only one I ran seemed to not really need me along (I did get some good practice learning to raid heal but like I said they didn't really need it)

and I HATE ONLY healing... buy a hireling, I wanna run face first into traps like the rest of yas!

[Emili]

Um.

Notice that none of these are weapon types that are any good? Harry has 15 DR on normal. Most of those weapons are no good at all. You would actually be better off using a plain holy of nothing on a decent weapon type compared to the majority of those weapons.

Plain holy of nothing is 7 per swing holy damage... each weapon above is 15 per swing over it before the proc. Meaning you'd must have a weapon with +8 damage in type over to just break even. Add in the procs of the dr breaker and now you'd need 3.5,7 or 10.5 more to play catch up. I am saying straight up is more than meets the eye.

I don't know how it is on argo, but it is definitely NOT the case on khyber.

Just stating... people would really need to know what they're comparing here...

A 15DR would mean you'd need to be averaging 15 more points of damage per swing (every swing) more on some other weapon type which does not break DR which that is not going to happen via most non-dr breakers, even on a nice x3 weapon type... you'd have to scrutinize and hunt out one which a non-DR breaker fitting your build with enough procs on it.

A +1 khopesh of geob in non-DR breaker variety will fall behind a +1 Metalline Dwarven Axe of PG even if you're a khopesh based kensie and not DA spec'd ... A +2 heavey pick of GEO comes close - You'd need 4d6 on any weapon proc on every hit (average 14) and 5d6 would average 17.5 - So we're speaking of a vanilla Holy burst(Anarchic burst) x of GEOB, which btw is not so vanilla... and we really did not weigh in the pg or holy procs of the DR breaker yet.

Why does LitII outdo MinII on norm/hard setting ... it would not except for the lit blast and lit strike average in beating the mim... if the min were some other blast burst which Harry hated it would edge out the lit II (and I think even when counting the strike last time I worked it out).

[Elation]

I have noticed recently alot more people giving at lvl or lower then lvl raids a try its nice to see. There is an excitement a thrill at trying something from a different perspective. You learn how to stretch the limits of what your toon can do and what you as a player can do. Its not about training its about devoleping skills that teach you how to survive.

[PopeJual]

Compare a holy khopesh of nothing to a metalline dagger of pure good. Even if the dagger wins out, it will probably be so close that it doesn't even matter. Also note that you'll probably have better than holy of nothing by the time you start running shroud, just from random loot.

+1 Holy Burst Khopesh of Pure Good vs. +1 Metalline Kukri of Pure Good.

Round 1... FIGHT!

Assumptions -
Improved Crit: Slashing
All critical hits are confirmed
B = bonus from Strength, etc. added to base damage
Q = bonuses from other sources that are not multiplied on crits

Khopesh
1 MISS
2-16 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Good + 1d8 + 1 base + B + Q -15
17-20 2d6 Holy + 4d6 Burst + 1d6 Good + (1d8 + 1 base + B) * 3 + Q -15

2-16 averages (10.5 + 5.5 + B + Q - 15) * 15 = 15 + 15B + 15Q
17-20 averages [24.5 + (5.5 + B) * 2 + Q - 15] *4 = 82 + 8B +3Q

Total = 97 + 23B + 18Q

Kukri
1 MISS
2-14 1d6 Good + 1d4 base + B + Q
15-20 = 1d6 Good + (1d4 + 1 base + B) * 2 + Q

2-14 averages (3.5 + 3.5 + B + Q) * 12 = 84 + 12B + 12Q
15-20 averages [3.5 + (3.5 + B) * 1.5 + Q) * 6 = 52.5 + 9B +6Q

Total = 136.5 + 21B + 18Q

Kukri does 39.5 more damage before bonuses in 20 swings while the Khopesh does 2 more "B" in 20 swings. Any damage that isn't multiplied by critical hits (sneak attack, etc) is irrelevant because it scales the same on both weapons.

If you have +9 damage from Strength, Power Attack, etc., then the Kukri will be barely better than the Khopesh. If you have more that +20 damage from Strength, etc., then the Khopesh will be slightly better than the Kukri. Additional plusses on the weapon count toward that "B", so a +5 Holy Burst Khopesh of Pure Good will close the gap somewhat on a +5 Metalline of Pure Good Kukri.



Comparing a +1 Holy Khopesh of nothing to a +1 Metalline Kukri of Pure Good means that you need more "B" to compete.

Round 2... FIGHT!

Assumptions -
Improved Crit: Slashing
All critical hits are confirmed
B = bonus from Strength, etc. added to base damage
Q = bonuses from other sources that are not multiplied on crits

Khopesh
1 MISS
2-16 2d6 Holy + 1d8 + 1 base + B + Q -15
17-20 2d6 Holy + (1d8 + 1 base + B) * 3 + Q -15

2-16 averages (7 + 5.5 + B + Q - 15) * 15 = -37.5 + 15B + 15Q
17-20 averages [7 + (5.5 + B) * 2 + Q - 15] *4 = 12 + 8B +3Q

Total = -25.5 + 23B + 18Q

Kukri
1 MISS
2-14 1d6 Good + 1d4 base + B + Q
15-20 = 1d6 Good + (1d4 + 1 base + B) * 2 + Q

2-14 averages (3.5 + 3.5 + B + Q) * 12 = 84 + 12B + 12Q
15-20 averages [3.5 + (3.5 + B) * 1.5 + Q) * 6 = 52.5 + 9B +6Q

Total = 136.5 + 21B + 18Q

In this case, since the Khopesh doesn't have the Pure Good to add to each shot and the Holy Burst to add to the impressive Khopesh critical hits, the "B" has to be over 81 in order to make up for the lost damage from DR. As long as the character has +81 damage from Strength or any other source that is multiplied by critical hits, then the Khopesh will still win. Also, you can count 2/3 of your Seeker value towards the "B", so if you have a Bloodstone, that counts as 4 points toward "B".


Since there was a +2 Metalline Kukri of Pure Good on the Auction House for 12,450 plat when I checked, I think that sounds like a pretty good deal for a weapon to swing at Harry, Suulomades and Horoth. Especially when you consider how much a +1 Holy Khopesh actually goes for on the AH as a twink item.


EDIT: fixed each formula within the crit profile in order to account for the 50% fortification.

[Krag]

If +1 Holy khopesh was the best thing you could found, you have not tried hard. I just checked Amrath vendor and there was +2 Holy Khopesh of Backstabbing +3. Not the best weapon in the world but it is cheap and adds +5 damage to each hand.

Beat that with a kukri.

[Hordo]

If +1 Holy khopesh was the best thing you could found, you have not tried hard. I just checked Amrath vendor and there was +2 Holy Khopesh of Backstabbing +3. Not the best weapon in the world but it is cheap and adds +5 damage to each hand.

Beat that with a kukri.

Bah!

I dual wield Halfling Shintao Monks...each bypasses DR on it's own and does an extra 2d10 of "WHOOOPIIEEEE!! We're on a Tilt-a-Whirl!" damage.