The new age of gimps

[unscythe]

Learning curve- DDO has it

I miss being a complete noob, there was so much more mystery to the game.

I thinks pugging is relative, some players may find the pug amazing, and some may find it to be a horrible waste of time.

[MeliCat]

I live on khyber and MOST groups are lv17~20, this is right level, it is a little harder than it used to be, damage went up you cannot deny that, harry hits harder.

TRs most likely will never want to do it below level WE WANT OUR XP!

First time around have most likely levelled so fast they don't have the items or stats to be of use below level, let them hit SOS first etc..

The shroud changed, the game changed players changed, change is innevitible.

Just checking you know SilconShadow that the Shroud is rated at level 17 yes?

So this means that the Devs think that it can be done with characters at level 17. Just so you know. And this does not mean with uber gear.

[sultro]

i didn't read the last 4 pages, but i can say i sympathize with OP. its annoying when my legend built char can't get into a raid because i'm too low level. i remember taking plausable to the shroud at level 12, and leveling up on the optionals. even with the 50% power leveling penalty. of course, i didn't link beaters back then, any idiot that showed up without PORTAL and HARRY beaters wasn't getting invited again. the casters had to make do with powerword kill, and if they ran out of spell points, most of us were more than happy to vorp a little trash. heaven forbid you ask the melees to knock off a little trash in todays runs, at least on cannith where i'm playing nowadays.

PS if you see any of the old gang from Quiet Death, tell them i said hello!

[hityawithastick]

I miss being a complete noob, there was so much more mystery to the game.

Hey, I still have no idea how my spell damage is calculated

[Blank_Zero]

We still do "at lvl" Shrouds, but usually is 18 and under, just for the TR's who want the XP at lvl.

[Emili]

I live on khyber and MOST groups are lv17~20, this is right level, it is a little harder than it used to be, damage went up you cannot deny that, harry hits harder.

TRs most likely will never want to do it below level WE WANT OUR XP!

First time around have most likely levelled so fast they don't have the items or stats to be of use below level, let them hit SOS first etc..

The shroud changed, the game changed players changed, change is innevitible.

Harry actually melees less now and hit for softer in melee, casts spells more often, also has less DR on more difficult levels and seems to me ... a few less HP. The blades hit about the same and appears the part two/five lieutenants much less hp on them, fact is all the mob seem toned down in defense attributes than they were. Trash clearing in part one was done more often by strong melee also... many casters could not land insta death spells reliably - the Orthons and trogs saved - many complained. Orthons once had AC that some older builds - especially the finesse dex less than 32 - could not hit reliably - I remember complaints about that also on this very forum. AND I'm speaking from a level 14-16s point of view YET we ran it.

See you fall into that catagory of why i made this post, your views are just that we have no trouble completing at lvl 15-17 or even 14-16. So your point is kind of mute. If you cant find enough xp for your tr then your not doing enough quests lol you do realize there is enough xp in the game to hit 20 on a tr without even stepping foot in the vale, the orchard, or even gianthold if you really want to. Probably dont realize that though.

It's always been a lvl 17 quest... and actually when shroud came out it was lvl 17 but the level cap was 16 and we were level 16 capped for half the time the shroud been out. ... When we started the shroud ... rule of thumb was a three round part four and that was a good run... as we geared up on GS the number of usual rounds diminished.

The last at level shroud - lvls 14 thru 17 on elite in group - it just barely went to the third round to kill him in part four and the clerics had mana left come part five - SO ... point is it's still a mid level quest.

When I look at DDO today compared to what it was two and a half years ago - the quests got toned down - all of them - and the players got geared up, they've better stat items, better weapons, better DC's, more HP, a ton of PrE, PC's are totally boosted up, and the significant weight on the scales placed in the players favour.

[Attropos]

Why do I put my shrouds 17-20 or 18-20? Simply put, it keeps some of the noobs out. Shroud is boring after you run it hundreds of times. I honestly don't want to spend anymore time than possible in there.

Honestly, if you are a tr, why are you running it at 16 anyways? Especially with the new Droam pack, I'm starting to work on vale only after I take 16. Running a shroud at 16 with a bunch of 20s incurs massive xp penalties. If there's a lowbie shroud, I'll join it, but honestly, who spends any time at 16-18 anyways?

[Hordo]

Why do I put my shrouds 17-20 or 18-20? Simply put, it keeps some of the noobs out. Shroud is boring after you run it hundreds of times. I honestly don't want to spend anymore time than possible in there.

Honestly, if you are a tr, why are you running it at 16 anyways? Especially with the new Droam pack, I'm starting to work on vale only after I take 16. Running a shroud at 16 with a bunch of 20s incurs massive xp penalties. If there's a lowbie shroud, I'll join it, but honestly, who spends any time at 16-18 anyways?

I've not had a problem on my TRs with Shroud/Vale too "early" as you call it. I like to run the stuff the way we got it...N/H/E at least one time each at level, with at level groups. Not difficult to fill with old folks, as it were, as we like to reminisce about how easy Shroud Elite is at level 16 with groups that know how to run it at 16. Granted, it gets boring after a bit, but then again once you've hit level 17 it just becomes one of the raids you do when you get in a raid train anyway.

[Disavowed]

Make your own group stop itching about how others run theres

The OP has and does lead raids on a regular basis. I put up the LFM for 95% of the pugs I'm in. Guess what? Sometimes you just don't feel like having the star and you just want to run the raid. Maybe you can't be on mic to give instructions that day due to people sleeping etc. It happens.

But I know the OP holds the star often.

[AtomicMew]

double post...

[AtomicMew]

... groups that know how to run it...

Okay, now stop right there. As a healer, my job is to spam mass heals on the barb and not die. As a melee, my job is to equip the best boss beater I have, go to the center and turn on auto attack. What else is there to know?

Answer: there really isn't much more that you need to know. I mean, even if you don't know the puzzle, someone else can do it... if you don't know where the crystal is, someone will just tell you. Shroud is so ridiculously straight-forward that saying there is any sort of differential between groups that "know shroud" and groups that "don't" is laughable and stinks of elitism.

Allow me to conjecture: the real difference is gear. It isn't "knowing" shroud that lets you do elite at level 16, it's gear. When Vale first came out, I'm sure you and your buddies were already decked out, having already spent months or even years at cap. New players don't really have that opportunity. No newbie is going to wait months farming low level quests for decent named loot before running shroud. They're going to go for their best opportunity with least amount of variance. That's Shroud. Shroud IS the quintessential gear farm. That's why you see such a large number of folks there who can't even do half as much DPS as you. You misconstrue that into thinking they are bad and gimpy players. It doesn't. It just means they are new.

It should be obvious without even having to be said that the comparisons being made in this thread are not even close to fair. Compare the "gimps" in shroud to yourselves when you guys were new, not when you've already been playing for 2 years. Even if you, personally climbed the learning curve pretty quick, I'm sure there are countless vets who didn't. If you can see that, I think it becomes quite clear that all of you are looking back through rose colored glasses.

[BattleCircle]

Harry actually melees less now and hit for softer in melee, casts spells more often, also has less DR on more difficult levels and seems to me ... a few less HP. The blades hit about the same and appears the part two/five lieutenants much less hp on them, fact is all the mob seem toned down in defense attributes than they were. Trash clearing in part one was done more often by strong melee also... many casters could land insta death spells reliably - the Orthons and trogs saved - many complained. Orthons once had AC that some older builds - especially the finesse dex less than 32 - could not hit reliably - I remember complaints about that also on this very forum. AND I'm speaking from a level 14-16s point of view YET we ran it.



It's always been a lvl 17 quest... and actually when shroud came out it was lvl 17 but the level cap was 16 and we were level 16 capped for half the time the shroud been out. ... When we started the shroud ... rule of thumb was a three round part four and that was a good run... as we geared up on GS the number of usual rounds diminished.

The last at level shroud - lvls 14 thru 17 on elite in group - it just barely went to the third round to kill him in part four and the clerics had mana left come part five - SO ... point is it's still a mid level quest.

When I look at DDO today compared to what it was two and a half years ago - the quests got toned down - all of them - and the players got geared up, they've better stat items, better weapons, better DC's, more HP, a ton of PrE, PC's are totally boosted up, and the significant weight on the scales placed in the players favour.

Very well put, and accurate assessment +1, and more if I could.

[PopeJual]

Allow me to conjecture: the real difference is gear. It isn't "knowing" shroud that lets you do elite at level 16, it's gear.

I agree that a significant part of getting through the Shroud is gear, but I think that "Shroud knowledge" counts for an extremely large part too. I just think that "Shroud knowledge" is more than just knowing what to do once you get into the Shroud.

Here are some "Shroud knowledge" facts that a shockingly large number of players seem to have missed.

Con is not a dump stat.
It's okay to be an AA as long as you didn't dump Strength and as long as long as you are willing to put away the pew pew when it's appopriate and bust out a pair of decent melee weapons.
Having less than 200 HP is not acceptable at levels 17-20. Not for any class.
Fortification is important.
Fortification is not the same as having a high Fort save.
More HP = more success.
Stay in during the blades.
If you keep dying to delayed blast fireballs/meteor swarms and you have the skill points to UMD a Fire Shield scroll, then doing so might be a good idea.
If you have a splash of Rogue, then you should have the UMD to toss a Fire Shield scroll.
Con is not a dump stat.
A RadII Rapier or Scimitar makes an outstanding weapon. It is not a good weapon to use for beating on Harry.
What do you call people who pull out early for protection? Parents! Stay in for the blades.
If you start with a 14 Strength and put all of your level ups into Dex, you might want to consider taking Weapon Finesse.
If you are a WF, invest the points into at least Healer's Friend I.
I don't care how good your spreadsheet DPS is, if you are riding in someone's backpack, your DPS during that time is 0.


There are lots of other important bits of knowledge that all add up to success in the Shroud, but that's at least a start. I've encountered people who don't know each and every single one of those tidbits in the past month.

[Emili]

Very well put, and accurate assessment +1, and more if I could.

Just recalling what the player base was like back when the Shroud was introduced...

Prior to Shroud we had Giant hold and Orchard...

• Rosewood was still 28 points and Emili and the rest 32 point characters many the players still had a 28 point main or accounts full of 28 point builds.
• The only PrE's were the first tier bard and barb's had crit rage.
• There was no monk class,
• Most rangers were Archers and the few Str/Con built rangers like my Einin were more anomaly...
• WoPs were starting to become extremely popular and more plentiful.
• +2 tomes were the rage as the vale quest and end rewards.
• We went into Shroud blindly – no preview like we had with ToD.
• Casters were mostly Drow and low HP.
• Casters were upset everywhere... where they used to blast the mob of the Orchard and GH all of a sudden fire resistant mob with SR – they became dependent at first until they respec'd.

The Shroud was won via exploring and we learned it on live server. Our playing and builds evolved from shroud... we arose to beating it.

[NeutronStar]

I agree that a significant part of getting through the Shroud is gear, but I think that "Shroud knowledge" counts for an extremely large part too. I just think that "Shroud knowledge" is more than just knowing what to do once you get into the Shroud.

Here are some "Shroud knowledge" facts that a shockingly large number of players seem to have missed.

Con is not a dump stat.
It's okay to be an AA as long as you didn't dump Strength and as long as long as you are willing to put away the pew pew when it's appopriate and bust out a pair of decent melee weapons.
Having less than 200 HP is not acceptable at levels 17-20. Not for any class.
Fortification is important.
Fortification is not the same as having a high Fort save.
More HP = more success.
Stay in during the blades.
If you keep dying to delayed blast fireballs/meteor swarms and you have the skill points to UMD a Fire Shield scroll, then doing so might be a good idea.
If you have a splash of Rogue, then you should have the UMD to toss a Fire Shield scroll.
Con is not a dump stat.
A RadII Rapier or Scimitar makes an outstanding weapon. It is not a good weapon to use for beating on Harry.
What do you call people who pull out early for protection? Parents! Stay in for the blades.
If you start with a 14 Strength and put all of your level ups into Dex, you might want to consider taking Weapon Finesse.
If you are a WF, invest the points into at least Healer's Friend I.
I don't care how good your spreadsheet DPS is, if you are riding in someone's backpack, your DPS during that time is 0.


There are lots of other important bits of knowledge that all add up to success in the Shroud, but that's at least a start. I've encountered people who don't know each and every single one of those tidbits in the past month.

You forgot to add "Con is not a dump stat" a third time. That really needs to be emphasized!

[jydog100]

Just recalling what the player base was like back when the Shroud was introduced...

Prior to Shroud we had Giant hold and Orchard...

• Rosewood was still 28 points and Emili and the rest 32 point characters many the players still had a 28 point main or accounts full of 28 point builds.
• The only PrE's were the first tier bard and barb's had crit rage.
• There was no monk class,
• Most rangers were Archers and the few Str/Con built rangers like my Einin were more anomaly...
• WoPs were starting to become extremely popular and more plentiful.
• +2 tomes were the rage as the vale quest and end rewards.
• We went into Shroud blindly – no preview like we had with ToD.
• Casters were mostly Drow and low HP.
• Casters were upset everywhere... where they used to blast the mob of the Orchard and GH all of a sudden fire resistant mob with SR – they became dependent at first until they respec'd.

The Shroud was won via exploring and we learned it on live server. Our builds evolved from shroud...

to add a few more: no mass heal for clerics (no fvs either)...you couldn't just stand back and pick a target to mass heal on. healing the shroud was difficult and expensive back then...qwijy was rich

dual WoP wielding rangers owned the trash

no wail for casters and dc's were low....casters running out of mana 2/3 rd's thru part 1, rangers/rogues cleaning up trash

part 2 had a penalty box when shroud came out...

we were LESS geared back then compared to todays lvl 16's, shroud was a struggle the first few months then as we got more experienced at it we got better....shroud today is a joke

single healers, 1 round part 4's, casters dominating all but harry.

easy to win the game with a proven plan.

[Slorgs]

So when do you have to be min lvl 18 to complete shroud or even be allowed in a shroud group. Lol things have gotten so sad and the players are that bad that you can no longer do shroud with charactors of the appropriate lvl for the quest range. Does anyone remember when you had to be a decent player and by the time you were lvl 13 you where flagged for shroud and running it?

The new world of must be over powered to run a quest is pathetic and sad!

Well given the amount of failed shroud part 2, and don't even get me started on hound, I can probably see the logic here. There was a day when a low level joining your group didn't matter, but now you have level 20 tr's killing all monsters before you can open the way to VOD and then some other guy kicking off the quest before we even buff. How about not knowing part 2 of shroud, or being able to run in a circle in hound. How about sneaking in part 2 of TOD?

The problem is... we remember when there were decent players all too well, and when people didn't know a quest they would ask questions and/or listen to direction when both typed in chat and spoken over voice.

/rant off

[Emili]

to add a few more: no mass heal for clerics (no fvs either)...you couldn't just stand back and pick a target to mass heal on. healing the shroud was difficult and expensive back then...qwijy was rich

dual WoP wielding rangers owned the trash

no wail for casters and dc's were low....casters running out of mana 2/3 rd's thru part 1, rangers/rogues cleaning up trash

part 2 had a penalty box when shroud came out...

we were LESS geared back then compared to todays lvl 16's, shroud was a struggle the first few months then as we got more experienced at it we got better....shroud today is a joke

single healers, 1 round part 4's, casters dominating all but harry.

easy to win the game with a proven plan.

I realized a few aspects about the topic of this conversation... and conclude with many certain facts. Prior of EU much of the player base were die-hard DDO fans the game itself was more difficult and one had to pursue attaining respectable skill and knowledge of their character builds to accomplish the goals.

The great development drought and players frustrated with game changes, respecs and content stagnant and rehashed thinned the population down leaving behind the most stubborn of vets – us who clinged to the game for our views of it and our friendships.

When EU was introduced the Devs took light of all the exit polls – made the game easier – Lower'd mob attributes such as AC, hp and such across the board... Shroud is by far easier than it has ever been. The challenge it once was is reduced. In today's power-group speed runs we rip through the quest as if it were reaver's fate. In even lesser groups one rarely sees the part 3 prismatic wall or part four have to kill healing gnolls and watch blades come in a second time. I mention these things as these are elements the Dev's added as a challenge - today those challenges are not faced nor overcome due to the shear power of the PC and the lowering of the power of the mob.

The issue here... is much of the game until "The Sroud" is powered through. You do not need to play by a plan nor strategically prior so many of the newer players this becomes their first experience where planning and team work unfold as useful in an "at level" quest. The consequences of bad decisions equates to failure which sometimes may not be corrected within the quest.

[Hordo]

Okay, now stop right there. As a healer, my job is to spam mass heals on the barb and not die. As a melee, my job is to equip the best boss beater I have, go to the center and turn on auto attack. What else is there to know?

Answer: there really isn't much more that you need to know. I mean, even if you don't know the puzzle, someone else can do it... if you don't know where the crystal is, someone will just tell you. Shroud is so ridiculously straight-forward that saying there is any sort of differential between groups that "know shroud" and groups that "don't" is laughable and stinks of elitism.

Allow me to conjecture: the real difference is gear. It isn't "knowing" shroud that lets you do elite at level 16, it's gear. When Vale first came out, I'm sure you and your buddies were already decked out, having already spent months or even years at cap. New players don't really have that opportunity. No newbie is going to wait months farming low level quests for decent named loot before running shroud. They're going to go for their best opportunity with least amount of variance. That's Shroud. Shroud IS the quintessential gear farm. That's why you see such a large number of folks there who can't even do half as much DPS as you. You misconstrue that into thinking they are bad and gimpy players. It doesn't. It just means they are new.

It should be obvious without even having to be said that the comparisons being made in this thread are not even close to fair. Compare the "gimps" in shroud to yourselves when you guys were new, not when you've already been playing for 2 years. Even if you, personally climbed the learning curve pretty quick, I'm sure there are countless vets who didn't. If you can see that, I think it becomes quite clear that all of you are looking back through rose colored glasses.

We learned the Shroud by doing the Shroud...no one had Harry beaters because we didn't know what was needed yet.

We didn't know the puzzles, we took the time to learn those.
We didn't know the spawn pattern of the portals, we took the time to learn those.
We didn't know how to kill the part two lieutenants, we learned how.
We didn't know anything about it, but we actually took the time to learn.

The problem now is that after 5 separate and distinct nerfs to the Shroud making it so easy that it is easily short-manned at or under level while still under geared is very telling.

It tells us that the only way that is happening is that the player base that is currently running it is not taking the time to learn it.

Is that because they join vet groups who are doing speed runs and don't have time to teach them? Partially.
Is that because they join groups and do not let folks know that they are new and don't know the quest yet? Partially.
Is that because they don't take advantage of the countless LFMs for "Teaching" or "Training Wheels" runs that are put up (at least on Khyber)? Partially.

The basic line here is that folks are getting to the Shroud without ever having learned how to play their characters, and therefore how to properly gear and outfit them in order to take best advantage of the enemy mobs presented at a moment's notice. You mention that they will not take the time to do so...that is their choice and their failure.

This game is extraordinarily easy for the first-time player with nearly everything one can do in-game at arms reach...I know this after watching numerous first-time players (and I mean first time playing ANY online game, MMO or not) first hand and having them refuse my assistance and advice. Basically, if you want to be a good player you need to put all of that aside and use the best tool in a player's arsenal...one's own mind.

Learn the quests. Learn the spells. Learn the equipment. Learn HOW things work. Learn what NOT to do. Learn the puzzles. Learn HOW TO ASK FOR HELP if needs be. Learn to be honest about your experience level when asked. For goodness' sake learn something before you decide to join your first group: how to listen.

[NeutronStar]

Learn the quests. Learn the spells. Learn the equipment. Learn HOW things work. Learn what NOT to do. Learn the puzzles. Learn HOW TO ASK FOR HELP if needs be. Learn to be honest about your experience level when asked. For goodness' sake learn something before you decide to join your first group: how to listen.

Yes