The new age of gimps

[Sweyn]

Dude ARE YOU SERIOUS? We were doing 17 minute speed runs at lvel 13-16 before ftp. Why would we need to be 20 to get done fast?

Because mod 8s 13-16 toons were about as geared as today's 18-20 toons. Plus, today's toons at level 13 are still in GH/necro, unlike back then they were running the vale/marketplace raids.

It is near impossible to put an lfm up today (100% pug group) for 15-16 and have 80% of the melees have greensteel, yet back then you could, that's th difference. And the reason for that isnt ftp noobs, the reason is simply becausehe level cap has been raised. Shroud is an end game raid, back then end game was 15-16, today it's 18-20, that is why

[Disavowed]

Because mod 8s 13-16 toons were about as geared as today's 18-20 toons. Plus, today's toons at level 13 are still in GH/necro, unlike back then they were running the vale/marketplace raids.

It is near impossible to put an lfm up today (100% pug group) for 15-16 and have 80% of the melees have greensteel, yet back then you could, that's th difference. And the reason for that isnt ftp noobs, the reason is simply becausehe level cap has been raised. Shroud is an end game raid, back then end game was 15-16, today it's 18-20, that is why

You are somewhat correct. But the real difference is we knew what to bring to the quest. I can still put up an lfm that says have DR breakers and people will join without them because they have no clue what a dr breaker is or a heavy fort item for that matter. The difference is we cared if we gimped a party. These guys don't care at all. They just want someone to carry them thru so they can get their loot/gear and get them leveled. We were small back then and people knew each other. The last thing you wanted was to be labeled as was a gimp or one who piked and didn't hold their own. If you were labeled as such you'd be soloing forever. It's why I have never run a TOD. I don't have boots because I'm just now getting to that level with my friends that are new to the game. I haven't had a chance to get the right gear for the quest so I won't join. The new era of people would join and wouldn't care because they either don't listen or don't care.

I can still pull a straight pug and have everyone show up with the proper gear every time. But I have to post it on here and set it up in advance. If I do the tards don't get a chance to join. It's still an LFM and it's a total pug but the folks on here know what toys they need to bring to a quest. Just like they did 2 years ago.

[Emili]

Because mod 8s 13-16 toons were about as geared as today's 18-20 toons. Plus, today's toons at level 13 are still in GH/necro, unlike back then they were running the vale/marketplace raids.

It is near impossible to put an lfm up today (100% pug group) for 15-16 and have 80% of the melees have greensteel, yet back then you could, that's th difference. And the reason for that isnt ftp noobs, the reason is simply becausehe level cap has been raised. Shroud is an end game raid, back then end game was 15-16, today it's 18-20, that is why

I consider Shroud as far from todays endgame - Endgame today is epic raids plus possible is elite Tod and it's flagging material. Shroud gear is also middle-road in it's power and slowly being antiquated in scope of those.

Elite Shrouds ... my first completed elite shroud was run with a set still have them a +3 silver holy and a +1 transmuting (now metalline) of pg Khopeshes (was within a two week period after the Vale was brand new)... Min II was not even discovered at the time.

Within the first three to four months we nearly had all the recipes - figure out how many ingredients we farmed? I have in Emili's gear probably one of the first min II's with insight on it - min level 8, Do we know how we done so, so quickly?

Yes, we were dripping in GS after year but within the first year the success rate was still quite well even with half the party without any at all.

I do... You see level cap was not always 20 - this we all know, and the fact of such DDO growing from level cap to level cap attuned the vets to a greater insight than todays players do not have the time nor notion of... you see where I'm comming from?

Back at level cap 10 I had eight capped characters (all different classes), when level 12 come out they hit those two levels quickly also - when 1750 available we all started rerolling them and come gianthold I had 26 level 14's and were capping our characters quickly, come the vale and the same, Vets approached the vale/shroud with with every character class in their account... The veteran experience was that we knew from each and every class how we interact together - not so much guessing - and we run the game from all the differing view points, shared what we knew on the next run...

My shroud ingred bag still has a price tag on it near 5 mill pp ... is not one character did that but all of them. For over two years shroud was our "End-game" and we ran multiple characters back to back through it night after night after night... of course we were good at it. Todays the mid level raider is lucky to have run a dozen raids.

Emili had over 280 von 6, 141 titans, 189 reavers,... 180 shrouds ... 100 ToD, I tossed it in a spreadsheet to plan her Tr'd to settle her out on 20th marks. The character totalled over 1600 raids, figure in the alotment of the other in my account and that I am just an average five+ years DDO old player, multiply that by the thousands who drug me along...

So when do you have to be min lvl 18 to complete shroud or even be allowed in a shroud group. Lol things have gotten so sad and the players are that bad that you can no longer do shroud with charactors of the appropriate lvl for the quest range. Does anyone remember when you had to be a decent player and by the time you were lvl 13 you where flagged for shroud and running it?

The new world of must be over powered to run a quest is pathetic and sad!

I was sad because I could not get a level 15-16 group to take the quest on elite, I did manage to run it at 15 (completed) on my TR but was not until my TR was 17 that we got an elite run done. The sad thing is many people do not realize how much experience in this quest exist - 45k experience for an elite shroud ... completion time under 35 minutes.

[BlackSteel]

Heck, I dusted off my old cleric to run a shroud the other week. He's still 17, hasnt been played aside to take that level since FvS's came out. Farming the shroud with him back in the day was never a problem.

So into p1, this is a group of 18-20s, I'm the only 17. Portal DPS is slow, the lvl 20 wizard is magic missling the portals the melees are beating on. Asked repeatedly to go ahead of the party n work on the trash. Finally halfway done with that section he responds he doesnt know where the next one spawns, I offer to guide him around, and he declines b/c he doesnt have much mana left anyway.

Part2 takes 3 tries, once to bad communication, once to the arcane not really knowing how to blow up the crystal fast. Bosses are slow coming down anyway.

Part3 about half the party needs helps with the puzzles, more than half stand around afterward while 2-3 people run all the waters. Instructions were given.

Part4 trash dies allright to a mass hold landing. Harry lands, the 2nd cleric dies immedietely to standing in a roaming blade. About six seconds later 6 or 7 of the melee immedietely die to a single meteor swarm. I use up my SP keeping the last two melee alive. I step up away from the wall into the circling blades an KO myself. 2 melee die, party wipe.

I then proceed to hear a lecture from one of the melee about how the healers should always watch out for themselves and just drop group midway.

shrouds over 2 years old, I'm not burning scrolls or pots to slag thru it b/c half the party is either clueless or has less than 200 HP.

I had one other bad one, with my barb this time, where 45 minutes in, we were still in p2; that one I said gtg, then proceeded to /death.


I've been TR'ing for the past six months, so had little clue that pugging this quest was so bad. Two lessons learned for me very quickly.

1) Start my own group, and treat it very similarlly to my TR exp groups, epics, or hard/elite ToDs. Take only guild tags I recognize. Apparently shroud is too hard for a true PuG. Or atleast hard enough to warrant a headache and twice the time investment.

2) Drop group if while forming the party is talking about how awesome the inspired quarter is, and about all the overpowered loot from mindsunder. And how those are the bests quests EVER.

yes I may be a little elitist. But I dont get much playtime. And I'm not wasting an hour in a bad shroud run, when I know it can be ran in 15-20 minutes with ease simply by being more discriminate on who joins.

[Sweyn]

You are somewhat correct. But the real difference is we knew what to bring to the quest. I can still put up an lfm that says have DR breakers and people will join without them because they have no clue what a dr breaker is or a heavy fort item for that matter. The difference is we cared if we gimped a party. These guys don't care at all. They just want someone to carry them thru so they can get their loot/gear and get them leveled. We were small back then and people knew each other. The last thing you wanted was to be labeled as was a gimp or one who piked and didn't hold their own. If you were labeled as such you'd be soloing forever. It's why I have never run a TOD. I don't have boots because I'm just now getting to that level with my friends that are new to the game. I haven't had a chance to get the right gear for the quest so I won't join. The new era of people would join and wouldn't care because they either don't listen or don't care.

I can still pull a straight pug and have everyone show up with the proper gear every time. But I have to post it on here and set it up in advance. If I do the tards don't get a chance to join. It's still an LFM and it's a total pug but the folks on here know what toys they need to bring to a quest. Just like they did 2 years ago.

I agree with everything here.

[NaturalHazard]

i tried to name one of my new charactors gimp so you lfm leaders could be well warned alas the name was already taken

[stille_nacht]

I always run my PUGS 17-20 :/, i might let one <17 in, but there are many many inexperienced people, and i really cant afford more than 1 or 2 useless people unless im in a guild run.

[NaturalHazard]

I always run my PUGS 17-20 :/, i might let one <17 in, but there are many many inexperienced people, and i really cant afford more than 1 or 2 useless people unless im in a guild run.

you have useless people in your guild? or your guildies are so awesome they can make up for more than 2 useless people?

[stille_nacht]

you have useless people in your guild? or your guildies are so awesome they can make up for more than 2 useless people?

what i mean is i cant afford more than 2 ppl i know have a high chance of being subpar (useless was a strong word) when half of the raid party could be subpar. If i have 7 other guildies that i know know the quest, ill take any level, because we can essentially do it on our own

[Krag]

A 1->16 dash is not enough to aquire gear to carry your own weight through the Shroud. Add the very common among new players lack of knowledge and flawed build to the equation to see why lower levels are not welcome.

Seasoned vets on their TRs or frshly rolled toons are not a waste of slot even if only level 12 but they are rarely flagged until 15-17.

[Disavowed]

Nice post. Can't +1 you or I would.

It made me think. Part of the problem is that we have TRs. When we were learning the game there was no TR. So if our toon was gimped we'd know it and people would let us know as well. That still happens. The difference is we knew this by 3/4 up the ladder. Just as these people do now, roughly around Vale time. Prior to that stuff was easy and they'd been running quests above level or on casual. By the time the vale hits people are running more level appropriate so there'e less chance for this to happen. They get into a quest and have 4 kills as they look at the kill count and see there is another melee with 84 kills. They died 5 times and the other guy not only didn't die but raised him efter those 5 deaths. Then something clicks. This toon is gimped.

When we realised this, back when there was no TR, it was back to the drawing board. We rerolled our toon and started from scratch. Now when these people finally get a clue that con isn't a dump stat at around level 16. Yet they don't reroll even though they know their toon is a gimp, and they hinder the party. They say screw it I'm almost level 20 I'll just let the skilled players carry me to 20 and I wil TR to a less gimped toon. I almost wonder if there should be a certain amount of favor one should have to achieve prior to TR ing as it's too easy to hit level 20 and not learn a thing.

[Emili]

Nice post. Can't +1 you or I would.

It made me think. Part of the problem is that we have TRs. When we were learning the game there was no TR. So if our toon was gimped we'd know it and people would let us know as well. That still happens. The difference is we knew this by 3/4 up the ladder. Just as these people do now, roughly around Vale time. Prior to that stuff was easy and they'd been running quests above level or on casual. By the time the vale hits people are running more level appropriate so there'e less chance for this to happen. They get into a quest and have 4 kills as they look at the kill count and see there is another melee with 84 kills. They died 5 times and the other guy not only didn't die but raised him efter those 5 deaths. Then something clicks. This toon is gimped.

When we realised this, back when there was no TR, it was back to the drawing board. We rerolled our toon and started from scratch. Now when these people finally get a clue that con isn't a dump stat at around level 16. Yet they don't reroll even though they know their toon is a gimp, and they hinder the party. They say screw it I'm almost level 20 I'll just let the skilled players carry me to 20 and I wil TR to a less gimped toon. I almost wonder if there should be a certain amount of favor one should have to achieve prior to TR ing as it's too easy to hit level 20 and not learn a thing.

I had mentioned TR was not that great of an option for many people in other threads, Newer players should build a few characters and cap them before just turning around at level 20 to tr the one they have.

[Disavowed]

A 1->16 dash is not enough to aquire gear to carry your own weight through the Shroud. Add the very common among new players lack of knowledge and flawed build to the equation to see why lower levels are not welcome.

Seasoned vets on their TRs or frshly rolled toons are not a waste of slot even if only level 12 but they are rarely flagged until 15-17.

I couldn't disagree more. One can get a silver or metaline good weapon at level six level four rr. Then you can get a Minos helm at level 11 and plus six stat items are dirt cheap if you by them as ml 15 opposed to ml 13. Guess what ? That's all one needs to walk into the shroud fully equiped. Ask anyone on here that's all one needs to bring. If they were to stupid to listen to being told not to use con as a dump stat well you can't bring smarts to the shroud if you don't already have them.

[stainer]

I had mentioned TR was not that great of an option for many people in other threads, Newer players should build a few characters and cap them before just turning around at level 20 to tr the one they have.

I have 6 capped now, may I TR one?

[Emili]

I have 6 capped now, may I TR one?

Yes you may.

btw Stainer, as far as I'm bloody concerned you're lumped into what they consider vets.

[stainer]

Yes you may.

WooHoo!

[MeliCat]

I find it interesting when I happily open up a Shroud I run to 16-20 with the lfm including 'Melee PST link weapons parts 4&5" that:
- I get very few <18s applying
- those who are <18 I generally have to send tells to asking what is in the lfm and find out that they don't have DR breakers.

This could be the times at which I am playing (2am -7am EST). Or it could be a comment on the player base.

It is also amusing the people who I have gently said 'er no, that won't break DR' go and create their own 'everyone's welcome' Shroud's whereas I have no problems filling usually.

When it's peak play times I feel bad starting a competing Shroud lfm. But if all the others have no indication that I can see that they are going to be reasonably speedy runs (I'm happy with about 25mins) what can I do?

[Khellendros13]

I find it interesting when I happily open up a Shroud I run to 16-20 with the lfm including 'Melee PST link weapons parts 4&5" that:
- I get very few <18s applying
- those who are <18 I generally have to send tells to asking what is in the lfm and find out that they don't have DR breakers.

This could be the times at which I am playing (2am -7am EST). Or it could be a comment on the player base.

It is also amusing the people who I have gently said 'er no, that won't break DR' go and create their own 'everyone's welcome' Shroud's whereas I have no problems filling usually.

When it's peak play times I feel bad starting a competing Shroud lfm. But if all the others have no indication that I can see that they are going to be reasonably speedy runs (I'm happy with about 25mins) what can I do?

You are doing it correctly

I formed my own shroud when another was up with 4 ppl in it - 1 I knew as a "DC to pike out of pt4 and 5" player, who was leading...

My Shroud filled in 10 mins or less with an lfm that said "Shorud - Fast with DD". I get lots of familiar people joining my raids and groups now, so I am not as scared when pugging a raid as I once was. I even screwed up and only had 1 healer and a bard - Cleric died in pt4 and the bard along with Wizard on scrolls, kept most up to make it a 1 rounder still. Pt5 the Cleric solo healed easily.

The other Shroud was half filled or so when we entered...

I quite enjoy pugging actually, lots of interesting people

[Disavowed]

Straight lowbie pug from the LFM and we wiped in part 4. That kind of had to do with me on my cleric and The Beergirl on her bard D-conning as the same time as Harry dropped in Pt 4.

Funny thing it was a group of vets that understand things like that happen. The only one to drop was the noob who didn't have a DR weapon even after the LFM said to make sure you have them. So we reran it w/o a hitch. It was funny to see all the level 18-20 Shroud LFM's. Several level 18's jumping in those when they could be getting full XP in ours.

Same thing with hound right afterwards we nailed it w/ lowbies as well. I guess I'm just mistaken and not reading the XP window correctly where it says we completed. You can't do it at the proper level w/o chugging a ton of pots according to the newbs.

[Mrkita]

To the OP, you raise a fair argument. But being a FTP 'noob' buying packs I can see a different side of the story, and my sides may already have been said (i'll say it anyway).

I have 2 points

1. The way I see it, for me at least, its about being comfortable with your Character. If I'm not comfortable running a quest/raid like the Shroud below level, or i'm no comfortable with a heap of lower lvl toons running it with me, I'm not going to put the LFM up.

2. There is too much XP about IMHO.... My main toon is lvl 12, and I've still got no idea what I'm doing, I'm leveling up too fast for what I want. I recently Flagged for VoN but By the time I get to do the raid, I'll be lvl 13-14, because over the last few weeks I haven't seen any running. And by that time I'll be looking at Sands or GH..

I bought the Red Fens pack, but at the rate I was leveling i got one quest of it done before I started on Other chains...

There is just to much to choose from quest wise and by the time some people are looking at doing shroud they're already at lvl 17-18etc.