What we *really* want...simply put

[Entelech]

Why am I stressing the no-constraint bit so much?
Because people are likely banking obsolete gear, hoping to COPY its appearance over to newer, better, suits of armour.
What if we could CREATE combinations instead?
We could keep suits as templates - but once we can freely pick layers, we could save those combinations as "armour appearance tonics", "appearance blueprints" or whatever we'd like to call them.
Yes, they would still take up one inventory slot - but at least they'd be lighter, and maybe we could share them around more easily.
Please keep in mind: the template tonic itself could be un-bound.
As long as the customising service requires some kind of paying or unlocking, Turbine need not draw the shortest straw in the deal.

How do appearance kits fit in this all?
Well, the ONE constraint Turbine could enforce is, some skins are store or favour only.
Either you unlock, find or buy them with TP - and you can freely use them in your own templates.

Maybe this isn't the best of the various worlds, but it could be a rough approximation.
Freely choose appearance, including exclusive skins as an option if you bought them.
Provide a front-end screen not unlike character creation for picking appearance parts.
Create an "armour blueprint" from the appearance you created.
Apply the blueprint as an appearance kit.
Allow for blueprints to be applied as a character-choice instead of an item-specific option, and you have your cosmetic slots.

We seem to be on pretty close to the same page.

As far as how many constraints on what combinations we can pick, I really do not object to loosening it up. But there will be some who argue that platemail looking like robes is cheating (for the 2 people who care about PVP) or spoils the suspension of disbelief, or just like meddling in other folks' business.

Also, from the Dev's point of view, I can imagine they'd want safeguards to prevent people from deliberately designing armor with the most horrible clipping issues they could find, then walking around Stormreach making the place look like it was programmed by chimpanzees.

Of course, if I want to make Stormreach look bad, I can just apply a 1-layer skin to a suit of Heavy Plate, since none of the 'no-gear' skins look good on anything but cloth, so maybe that's not a big concern of the Devs.

Frankly, if it means a truly CUSTOMIZABLE (which the system on Lamannia is NOT, it's just a small number of cookie-cutter options) armor appearance system, I'm willing to throw a bone to the meddlers and the Devs to get it.

It'll skip all the argument. Forget all the garbage about "ZOMG that leather looks like CLOTH!" and "How DARE you wear black and brown at the same time!" It's pretty impossible to defend an argument that armor you could pull randomly from a chest should be disallowed as a choice.

Once we have the system, we can negotiate on a case-by-case basis if we decide the flexibility already built into the armor appearance engine is insufficient.

[Entelech]

For that matter, the blueprint generation does not even need to be in the game itself.

Have a web-based previewer as part of MyDDO, or even as a separate specialized mini-client.

You'd log into the preview system, where it would load your character's appearance and the armor he's wearing when you logged out of the game.

You fiddle through the menus and you get a character string (call it a 'schema' to fit Eberron lore) to define the set of appearance choices you wish to impose on your armor. It'd probably look something like a CD key.

You then log into your character, wander to a special crafting device, and put your armor, and some Astral Diamonds inside. Then copy and paste the schema into a text box on the crafting station window.

It might be much simpler to code it that way, than to make previewing part of the client.

[SardaofChaos]

The way I see it concerning the two-slot suggestion, making some assumptions along the way because I'm not a developer:
There's a function that is called when you change your armor(and a similar function for helm, but that's for another time) that removes the old buffs, adds new buffs, and changes your appearance. This could easily be changed to two functions, the first of which is called when the functional armor slot is changed that takes care of the buffs and the second of which is called when the fashionable armor slot is changed that takes care of the appearance. The functions that are called when you log in or change zones could be modified similarly.

Going to all these lengths to create a "crafting" system where you can have one of a few different appearances was more than likely at least twice as much work.

[Alabore]

THIS. Either this or the two slot system, but implement one of them please. I find all sorts of awesome looking sets of armor and robes, but they're all low level and useless past a certain point so I have to resort to the generic armor/robes later on.

Gents, this is actually asking for LESS than we could get.
This is could be a part of the whole system: getting part numbers from existing gear.
But devs can dynamically change parts on the fly.
Appearance kits showed us there is more to appearance customisation than we originally anticipated.
The real deal would be being able to choose those parts - body, gear, textures and hues - freely.

For that matter, the blueprint generation does not even need to be in the game itself.
Have a web-based previewer as part of MyDDO, or even as a separate specialized mini-client.
You'd log into the preview system, where it would load your character's appearance and the armor he's wearing when you logged out of the game.
...
It might be much simpler to code it that way, than to make previewing part of the client.

Something like the mini-myddo.
Would be even easier to come up with custom appearance without firing up the client ever.
BUT... I am not sure devs would give us an applet that could log into game data without some kind of client-server identification.
It would be great as a standalone program, that let us preview part numbers, on a browser-based application.

I'd be ok with an in-game feature to begin with, but as devs showed us, sky is really the limit.



...

Sky, and money...

[hityawithastick]

Know what would be nice? Hearing from a dev.

[Zippo]

What the heck?

Just create a NPC in armor shops to change the pieces or armor/clothing and color as you wish for a moderate price, and make that UI look like the one when you're designing your character's looks in the chracter creation thing

The simpler solution though, and the one I have seen argued for the most really is more like this:

[African-Grey]

The way I see it concerning the two-slot suggestion, making some assumptions along the way because I'm not a developer:
There's a function that is called when you change your armor(and a similar function for helm, but that's for another time) that removes the old buffs, adds new buffs, and changes your appearance. This could easily be changed to two functions, the first of which is called when the functional armor slot is changed that takes care of the buffs and the second of which is called when the fashionable armor slot is changed that takes care of the appearance. The functions that are called when you log in or change zones could be modified similarly.

The developers have shown they have the ability to apply appearance separately from buffs (see the bunny hats). So it appears that though the technology is there, the will to use it apparently is not. Sigh.

[Monroid]

The simpler solution though, and the one I have seen argued for the most really is more like this:

I know it may be a pointless argument, but wouldn't you be carrying 2 armors, making your emcumbrance higher? (a very little higher)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Know what would be nice? Hearing from a dev.

I don't think we'll be hearing from a Dev on this one.

[Joab_Watts]

I don't think we'll be hearing from a Dev on this one.

QFT

Sadly, the only thing they would likely say at this point is "This is the system you are getting. Live with it."

It's pretty obvious that Lamannia is a preview server, not a test server.

[Zippo]

I know it may be a pointless argument, but wouldn't you be carrying 2 armors, making your emcumbrance higher? (a very little higher)

That would be a very minor issue really, but the set up would be one of once placing an armor or robe etc in the cosmetic slot you could then put in the bank send it to another toon, sell it, keep it on ya, whatever.

[Ojsimpsonsux]

*Signed*

[Entelech]

Something like the mini-myddo.
Would be even easier to come up with custom appearance without firing up the client ever.
BUT... I am not sure devs would give us an applet that could log into game data without some kind of client-server identification.
It would be great as a standalone program, that let us preview part numbers, on a browser-based application.

I'd be ok with an in-game feature to begin with, but as devs showed us, sky is really the limit.



...

Sky, and money...

We've seen that MyDDO can read character data without the client running.

The reason you'd want to log in is so you can model the armor on your existing character, not a dressing dummy. A given suit of platemail looks very different on a Drow than it does on a Dwarf, and you might decide that a particular armor color doesn't work with your character's skin tone or hair.

Mind you, I'd be delighted to even get the "generic dressmaker's dummy" version, but a stripped-down mini-client that has a front end like the character creation system would be ideal.

For that matter, the ability to test out hairstyles and hair dyes might be nice, since it's awfully hard to predict how THOSE will look until you've wasted Turbine Points, and not everyone knows to do their cosmetic work on Lamannia first. Sir Poincelot has resulted in my buying hair dyes on live that I would never have bothered with if I couldn't preview them for free.

Another option would be to have a tab on the mini-client that would let you pull out the numbers for your nose, hairstyle, lips, etc... to let people TR characters created before Update 7 without losing their face.

[Alabore]

The reason you'd want to log in is so you can model the armor on your existing character, not a dressing dummy. A given suit of platemail looks very different on a Drow than it does on a Dwarf, and you might decide that a particular armor color doesn't work with your character's skin tone or hair.
Mind you, I'd be delighted to even get the "generic dressmaker's dummy" version, but a stripped-down mini-client that has a front end like the character creation system would be ideal.

+1 rep cookie.

Yes, definitely.
That was the reason why I suggested an in-game dressing room, so as to employ the very same engine we'd use for actual gaming.

I am not sure devs would be willing to code an external application based on a stripped down game engine, let alone let community work on a fan-created applet accessing actual game data.

NWN did have model browsers; DDO is sorely lacking any kind of content browser whatsoever - as far as I know at least.

For that matter, the ability to test out hairstyles and hair dyes might be nice, since it's awfully hard to predict how THOSE will look until you've wasted Turbine Points, and not everyone knows to do their cosmetic work on Lamannia first. Sir Poincelot has resulted in my buying hair dyes on live that I would never have bothered with if I couldn't preview them for free.

Yes, again, exactly my point.
Either you've been reading my older posts, or we see eye to eye on this particular issue.
Lamannia is - among the other things - my hair-style preview tool.

Another option would be to have a tab on the mini-client that would let you pull out the numbers for your nose, hairstyle, lips, etc... to let people TR characters created before Update 7 without losing their face.

Please, stop making this much sense!



I'm out of rep cookies, but this is another issue we are on the very same page about.

I mentioned it before, I'll mention it again: I don't mind spend TP to customise my char's appearance.
I do mind spending TP for one-shot tonics; it feels terribly cheap to me, and I feel it is a down-side to micro-transactions - it's like going to a fast food place, and being charged extra money for, say, straws and forks.

[Talon_Argenthawke]

**Signed**
The ability to customize is one of the most important features in any avatar based game. What fun is there in running around with a toon that is built the way you want, but looks like a schlub because the gear that you're using makes you look like a circus clown?
PVPers identify your base ability on the looks of your visible gear, but would be in for a rude surprise when your monk's robes are really +5 Plate...
Also, the ability to cosmetically change your look is like adding an infinite amount of items to the game. In my opinion, more is always better.
The only drawback to implementation I can figure are the mods to the engine and character database that would be required to make the system work. This could either be simple, or tedious, but shouldn't be too difficult to actually implement.

[Steampunkie]

**Signed**
The ability to customize is one of the most important features in any avatar based game. What fun is there in running around with a toon that is built the way you want, but looks like a schlub because the gear that you're using makes you look like a circus clown?
PVPers identify your base ability on the looks of your visible gear, but would be in for a rude surprise when your monk's robes are really +5 Plate...
Also, the ability to cosmetically change your look is like adding an infinite amount of items to the game. In my opinion, more is always better.
The only drawback to implementation I can figure are the mods to the engine and character database that would be required to make the system work. This could either be simple, or tedious, but shouldn't be too difficult to actually implement.

I think you're wrong about the database size.

What I'd like is already in the game, minus the UI.

Choose Armor Skin, Choose Armor Overlay. Done. The game already has a randomizer for the various parts, which is why you sometimes find shining plate over a dingy looking underarmor skin. With the new "Armor Kits" system in place you can, fairly obviously, change how your gear looks. To keep cash in Turbine's pockets, I propose the following.

Keep the DDO Store Armor Kits. They look great and they're a great basis for a system. Make them Unique (I.E. you cannot use those particular underarmors or overlays anywhere else). And then make "Blank" armor kits. Each blank armor kit is defined as Robe, Outfit, Outfit Skirt, Light, Light Skirt, Medium, Medium Skirt, Heavy, and Heavy Skirt. On double clicking the Blank armor kit (purchased at outrageous prices from vendors or reasonable ones in the DDO store) opens a small customization menu, wherein you are allowed to use the basic armor skins and armor overlays (that are normally randomly generated on a per-armor basis) to customize the armor kit to your liking.

In truth, you're not customizing anything at all. You're just going through a catalogue of pre-designed armors in a database, indexed by underarmor and overlay. When you pick Underarmor 5 and overlay 6, for example, you've crossed to a specific already created item. Once that's completed, the Blank Armor Kit is replaced with the armor kit you chose. Apply normally, and your armor is now customized.

For unique armor over and underlays, have DDO store options which add to the player's selectable database, AND item drops from specific enemies. Want to look like you're wearing Blue Dragonscale, but don't have enough scales (or your armor is better)? Farm a Blue Dragon for a Blue Dragon Armor Kit.

Opinions? Suggestions? Rebuttals?

-Rachel-

[dranael]

I just went back to Warcraft and played it for 3 days before canceling my account. Why did I cancel? Because there is no appearance tab. There is a post on the new forums with 2700 posts asking for it.

If DDO doesnt impliment it, I will leave also.

I will be playing EQ2, which has an appearance tab making the character imersion better and the player likes their toon more.

Signed +1

Appearance tab needs to be at the top of the list.

[KajaGrae]

I thought appearance tab goes in WoW with Cata?

IDK, I could be wrong, I cancelled my WoW account since I started DDO lol.



We want crafting feats that allow us to also choose the skin of the finished item. MUAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHA

[SardaofChaos]

I thought appearance tab goes in WoW with Cata?

Shh we don't need more people getting sucked back in

[Alabore]

In truth, you're not customizing anything at all. You're just going through a catalogue of pre-designed armors in a database, indexed by underarmor and overlay.
...
Once that's completed, the Blank Armor Kit is replaced with the armor kit you chose. Apply normally, and your armor is now customized.
...
Opinions? Suggestions? Rebuttals?

+1 rep cookie.
I suggested more or less the same, but I like how you stressed the "no customisation" point, since it is very true.
We'd be cross-indexing pre-built parts, not asking to rebuild over-layers from scratch.

...

As an incidental point: I checked over Lamannia and found out they fixed the glitch with hues.
Oh well... I was hoping I could rely on it to customise some suits with clashing colours but otherwise nice looking skins/layers.
I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer for more in-depth customisation options.