Lich Benefits

[Whargoul]

I agree that immunity is too much. Cold/lightning absorption, say 25%, would be a nice alternative.

Giving all incorporeal beings (ninjas and PMs) a separate % chance to avoid knockdown effects would be nice. I'm thinking less than 100% avoidance because they are not fully incorporeal.

Then address the PM problems listed here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=284786
With the deathward bug listed as top priority for bug fixes.

[Tobril]

What's problem with negative energy burst? Anyhow this "cure critical negative-wounds" is inflict critical wounds. Divines has it. It's divine spell so no luck for arcane to get it as a regular spell.

They want a second spell to recover hp in a non-4th level slot.

Also, the negative burst can be pretty expensive, whereas heal/reconstruct is significantly cheaper. (presuming metamagics running and no time to toggle them)

[Whargoul]

They want a second spell to recover hp in a non-4th level slot.

Also, the negative burst can be pretty expensive, whereas heal/reconstruct is significantly cheaper. (presuming metamagics running and no time to toggle them)

How about adding Harm as a 9th level arcane spell, and give it an expensive casting component? Technically, any wizard/sorc in PnP that can cast the Wish spell can use it to cast Harm anyway.

[Jaid314]

How about adding Harm as a 9th level arcane spell, and give it an expensive casting component? Technically, any wizard/sorc in PnP that can cast the Wish spell can use it to cast Harm anyway.

ironically, the targeted nature of harm would devalue it to the pale master... they'd have to select themselves first

much quick to just burst which automatically self-targets...

[Delolith]

How about adding Harm as a 9th level arcane spell, and give it an expensive casting component? Technically, any wizard/sorc in PnP that can cast the Wish spell can use it to cast Harm anyway.

As you said it is not possible since Harm is a Divine spell and not Arcane. And this is not a technicality. You cannot weave such a spell with arcane power unless you expend a Limited or Unlimited Wish which I doubt they would allow as a player spell. Hence, Harm remains a Divine exclusive spell.

[Seliana]

It doesn't have to be called harm. It's not like DDO hasn't made up features before in order to attain class balance.

[Delolith]

It doesn't have to be called harm. It's not like DDO hasn't made up features before in order to attain class balance.

True. Although I think our spells to self heal are fine atm. If people are just dissatisfied that Negative Energy Blast is 4 level spell they should just make it a 5th level one and call it a day.

[Seliana]

True. Although I think our spells to self heal are fine atm. If people are just dissatisfied that Negative Energy Blast is 4 level spell they should just make it a 5th level one and call it a day.

That's part of it, but it would also be nice to still have access to Warforged-like healing as well. A self targeted level 6 reconstruct-type option would be a nice addition to the prestige. Struggling to get 150 hp AOE heals by spending tons more SP then anyone else has to in order to self heal isn't all that fun. Warforged arcanes get Repair Crit mass and Reconstruct, Clerics have Cure Crit Mass and Heal, Why cant Pale Masters have Negative Energy Burst and Self-only Harm?

[FengXian]

That's part of it, but it would also be nice to still have access to Warforged-like healing as well. A self targeted level 6 reconstruct-type option would be a nice addition to the prestige. Struggling to get 150 hp AOE heals by spending tons more SP then anyone else has to in order to self heal isn't all that fun. Warforged arcanes get Repair Crit mass and Reconstruct, Clerics have Cure Crit Mass and Heal, Why cant Pale Masters have Negative Energy Burst and Self-only Harm?

Why? Fleshie wizards couldn't self heal at all if not through UMD a while ago, now they can, and you're asking for more? They added some negative energy spells, permanent shrouds, the insane mabar robe, that looks enough to me

There have to be some disadvantages in going lich/wraith, if healing isn't somehow harder all that remains is the DW you can't get, not enough to balance all the positive aspects.

[sephiroth1084]

Why? Fleshie wizards couldn't self heal at all if not through UMD a while ago, now they can, and you're asking for more? They added some negative energy spells, permanent shrouds, the insane mabar robe, that looks enough to me

There have to be some disadvantages in going lich/wraith, if healing isn't somehow harder all that remains is the DW you can't get, not enough to balance all the positive aspects.

The AP and feats are a cost, while being immune to getting healing from anyone else in the party is still a significant drawback--ever get tripped and killed on a self-healer because you were soloing or no one was around to heal you otherwise?

[FengXian]

The AP and feats are a cost, while being immune to getting healing from anyone else in the party is still a significant drawback--ever get tripped and killed on a self-healer because you were soloing or no one was around to heal you otherwise?

AP and feats are a cost for every PrE, the advantages of Pale Master (especially lich)are huge compared to most other PrE's, and you still can be healed by a cleric's harm - I've seen people asking for it to be memorized. You get DC boost, hp boost, lifeshield, free to cast spells, self healing over time aura which also damages more mobs, boon of undeath (healing again), nice immunities. Even when tripped your passive healing abilities (lifeshield proc, death aura, boon if you're lv 20) may prevent you from dying.

Besides, balance is not a dump skill.

[Delolith]

AP and feats are a cost for every PrE, the advantages of Pale Master (especially lich)are huge compared to most other PrE's, and you still can be healed by a cleric's harm - I've seen people asking for it to be memorized. You get DC boost, hp boost, lifeshield, free to cast spells, self healing over time aura which also damages more mobs, boon of undeath (healing again), nice immunities. Even when tripped your passive healing abilities (lifeshield proc, death aura, boon if you're lv 20) may prevent you from dying.

Besides, balance is not a dump skill.

Although I agree with you just a small nitpicking. Boon of Undeath comes only in the form of 2 items. Either the Epic Robe of Shadows or Abbot's Shroud. Both of them are hard to get (even worse now that Mabar even will probably replay again next year).

Also as for Balance, Wraith Form has a hidden +20 to Balance bonus Still though I believe it should mitigate knockdowns in a more effective manner.

[donfilibuster]

/not signed

There's plenty of threads already discussing these things, both the undead traits and the self-healing.

The pale master is not supposed to transform into a real undead, it takes on some traits only.
This is true of the PnP pale master as well.

Not all forms of ability damage are from draining, poison is one example.
I have not used disease immunity items while on form, i believe the undead form makes you immune, but may be coincidence.

Self healing is sufficient for a wizard, it would be on the same lines of the ranger, paladin, bard, monk, etc.
The arcane wielders are not meant to be full healers, even the warforged's repair have to compete with other wizard spells and enhancements.

The harm and inflict lines are strictly divine magic, there's no way it can be made into an arcane spell.
The negative energy spells are more of what an arcane can do and it should suffice for the amount of hp of the average wizard.

Self healing in general is not there to let you solo or do everything, rather it lets the group's healer focus on others, like the melees.
They would save sp, time and risk, be more efficient and overall get the quests done easier.

Likewise lich or wraith need no tweaks for more temporary hp or unarmed damage, that's just tools for meleeing builds, if you want that thing on your wizard.
The necrotic combos are powerful enough you shouldn't need to rely on the unarmed damage and saves enough sp that you won't miss the archmage.

/not signed again

[Delolith]

/not signed

There's plenty of threads already discussing these things, both the undead traits and the self-healing.

The pale master is not supposed to transform into a real undead, it takes on some traits only.
This is true of the PnP pale master as well.

Not all forms of ability damage are from draining, poison is one example.
I have not used disease immunity items while on form, i believe the undead form makes you immune, but may be coincidence.

Self healing is sufficient for a wizard, it would be on the same lines of the ranger, paladin, bard, monk, etc.
The arcane wielders are not meant to be full healers, even the warforged's repair have to compete with other wizard spells and enhancements.

The harm and inflict lines are strictly divine magic, there's no way it can be made into an arcane spell.
The negative energy spells are more of what an arcane can do and it should suffice for the amount of hp of the average wizard.

Self healing in general is not there to let you solo or do everything, rather it lets the group's healer focus on others, like the melees.
They would save sp, time and risk, be more efficient and overall get the quests done easier.

Likewise lich or wraith need no tweaks for more temporary hp or unarmed damage, that's just tools for meleeing builds, if you want that thing on your wizard.
The necrotic combos are powerful enough you shouldn't need to rely on the unarmed damage and saves enough sp that you won't miss the archmage.

/not signed again

Agreed on the self healing part. About disease immunity, it is not coincidental. Also the poison immunity gives you already stat damage immunity from poison. The only stat damage I have seen was a Cha damage. Spells reducing stats (not stat drain or damage) are of course excluded.

The only issues with PM are two:

1) Death Ward related - Simple...do not allow deathward to stack with undead form. Problem solved

2) Death Aura related - a. Death Aura bugs out when you fluctuate your potency while it is on (fixed in U8
supposedly)
b. Death aura bugs out when you cast Stoneskin from item (Mineral II weapons for example)
c. Death Aura bugs out when you melee while it is on (fixed in U8 supposedly)
d. Death Aura has lower effectivity than anticipated. This is due to the fact it follows wrong
formula than the one stated. It follows a 2d4 +1/2 level instead of 2d4 +1 level according
to player calculations.
e. Death aura has a horrendous visual effect and sound

If these things get fixed I will be very very content

[FengXian]

Agreed with both, as long as it's about bug fixing it's all good, and small improvements like the DW one suggested by Delolith are welcome, but Pale Master doesn't really need any more major boosts.

When it was a weak PrE and needed some love I was asking for improvements too, but now I believe it's balanced as it is, so just fix the bugs if there are any (although it might take some time, considering how ranged combat is still bugged for example lol).

[ChildrenofBodom]

Agreed with both, as long as it's about bug fixing it's all good, and small improvements like the DW one suggested by Delolith are welcome, but Pale Master doesn't really need any more major boosts.

When it was a weak PrE and needed some love I was asking for improvements too, but now I believe it's balanced as it is, so just fix the bugs if there are any (although it might take some time, considering how ranged combat is still bugged for example lol).

The ranged combat bug is much more complicated than the deathward bug. The deathward bug is as easy as making you immune to the spell while in form.

[Archer001]

The pale master is not supposed to transform into a real undead, it takes on some traits only.
This is true of the PnP pale master as well.

Fair enough, hmmm perhaps a addition to rank 3 would be a thought which let you upgrade one and only one of your undead toggles to make you permanently undead which a few extra benefits/weaknesses based on the fact that you are no fully undead.

Example extra benefits would be full undead benefits, for wraith full incorporable nature (50% miss chance vs magic, 100% vs Non-Magical, 0% vs ghost touch or force) and a brief ethereal step ability to copy what we see the wraith in game get up too.

[gurgar78]

I've actually noticed a few clerics in PUGs that have started to carry harm specifically to help heal palemasters. That was a pleasant surprise.

Regarding being tripped and getting killed in form because there's no one around to heal you: Balance skill aside, was it an epic?

I hardly pay attention to my health anymore on my PM because as long as Death Aura is active, I'm virtually unkillable, even if I can't do anything. 30-70 healing every 2 seconds, 2-9 health returned per attack. When you add in that either 20% or 50% of attacks are going to straight miss due to blur or displacement, unless you're completely surrounded by hard-hitting mobs, there's relatively little chance to die. I hardly even have to use Negative Energy Burst. Neg Energy Burst as our primary burst heal is fine. It's expensive, especially if you keep metamagics running, but it also damages everything around you. And this from a warforged. I'm positive I spend less mana healing as a palemaster than I did using reconstruct.

Boon to Undeath is no longer hard to acquire. It was very easy to build up the required motes to upgrade, buy a lich dust (Seriously, where do these ever spawn? =P) and PUG two epics to get a token. It takes some time, but it's not hard.

Editted to correct the name for Death Aura. I'm sure you know what I meant anyway.

[Archer001]

Boon to Undeath is no longer hard to acquire. It was very easy to build up the required motes to upgrade, buy a lich dust (Seriously, where do these ever spawn? =P) and PUG two epics to get a token. It takes some time, but it's not hard.

That is what I plan on doing, as I intend to have my first character at level 20 by then.