A Call to Improve the Viability of Elves

[AylinIsAwesome]

As it currently stands, Elf is quite possibly the worst race in the game.

From a melee standpoint, they are both squisher than any other race and also deal the least amount of damage. +2 to-hit/damage on Rapiers/Scimitars or +2 to-hit/+4 damage on Falchions is not enough to make up for the +4 to-hit/+8 Sneak Attack damage on Halfings, the Power Attack bonuses of Warforged or Half-Orc, or even the Sneak Attack of Half Elves or bonuses to stats and free feat of the Human. In addition, they are some 20 to 80 hitpoints behind the other races.

From an arcane standpoint, the -2 CON hurts quite a lot on classes that only gain 4 HP base per level, and there is absolutely no benefit to roll an Elf Wizard or Elf Sorcerer, as the extra SP and reduced ASF are both completely laughable.

And finally, from a divine standpoint, with the introduction of Half Elves and the Rogue racial feat, the reason to roll a melee divine is lessened even further. Why would someone roll Elf when Half Elf would net them at least 20 more HP, and 10.5 Sneak Attack damage far outweighs +2 damage on scimitars?


Because of these things, rolling an Elf is little more than a "flavour" choice, with no real good reason outside of that for a player to choose Elf. This, therefore, is a call to the devs to take a fresh look at Elves (and Drow as they suffer many of the same issues) and rebalance them to fit into the current incarnation of DDO. This is NOT a call to nerf any race in any way, shape or form, and mentions of other races are merely to show how the comparison to Elves would change. My goal is not to make Elves the new "overpowered" race, but simply to bring them up from "only as an RP choice" to "viable".



One possibility would be add stacking seeker bonuses to the racial weapon enhancements for Elves, Drow and Dwarves. 2 on the first tier and 3 on the second (for a total of +5) would not overpower Elves, Drow or Dwarves, but it would give more of a reason to play these races and use their racial weapons, instead of switching in every case to Khopesh. Half Orcs would be excluded from this because Half Orcs are already amazingly powerful, and the three aforementioned races receive specialized training in the weapons they use while Half Orcs just learn how to hit things very, very hard.

Compared to a Halfling who is also using a Rapier/Scimitar shows that Halflings would still do more DPS at less than 25% mob Fortification, and Elves would do more damage at greater than that. (The current situation is that Elves do not do more damage than Halflings until 60% mob Fortification).

Compared to a Warforged using a Rapier/Scimitar, and Elf would do more damage at less than 60% Fort, but the Warforged would do more damage at greater than 60% Fort. Please note also that the Warforged has many benefits that would far outweight this, including +80 HP, immunities (especially to negative levels), and that the Power Attack enhancements also work for the best weapon in the game; Khopesh.

Comparison to a Half Orc using a Rapier/Scimitar, would, of course still yield the Half Orc having greater DPS at all levels of Fortification (that +4 STR is hard to beat).

And finally, comparison to a Half Elf getting racial sneak attack shows that a Half Elf would deal more damage at less than 70% Fort, but this is dependent on the neither race being a Rogue.


In regards to arcane casters, it is easy to see that lowering ASF is, quite simply, a joke. If Elves are meant to be viable as arcane casters (as the compendium suggests by listing Wizard as their favoured class) then Elves need something to give them an edge over the much tougher Humans and Warforged, and over the smarter and more charismatic Drow. +60 SP just isn't going to cut it here. Perhaps changing the Elven Arcanum line to also grant a racial bonus to a certain spell school (up to +2) would be acceptable. Compared to a Drow, the Elf would now have 1 higher DC in that school, but be 1 DC behind in every other school. Perhaps this could also be available to Elves who are Clerics and Favoured Souls as well as Wizards and Sorcerers.



Any further suggestions (or improvements on the ones I have made) would be greatly appreciated.


EDIT: I'm reposting some of the suggestions made into the OP (with proper credit given) so that they're more visible to any devs that might read this.

k1ngp1n:
1. Change the amount of SP gained from Elven Arcanum from 15 SP to 50 SP per enhancement.
2. Bump the damage for racial weapons of Dwarves, Elves and Drow to +3 damage for one-handed weapons, and +6 for two-handed weapons.

grodon9999, sirgog, and myself:
1. Bonuses to AC while wielding only racial weapons (more complete explanation here).

QuantumFX:
1. Allow Elven Monks with WSS to use Scimitars and remain centered.
2. Introduce Elven "heritage" lines (more information here).
3. Tie the Seeker bonuses to the Attack lines for melee weapons, to make them more attractive.

Torebro:
1. Add Elven Haste Boost enhancements (won't stack with class Haste Boost, more info here.
2. Let Elven wizards add +2 INT through enhancements that stack with Wizard INT enhancements.

voodoogroves:
1. Add a new racial PrE that counts as Wizard and boosts melee effectiveness (as in Spellsword or Eldritch Knight).

Crann:
1. Let Elves choose to use their DEX mod instead of their STR mod for Tactical feats like Trip and Stunning Blow.

Gorbadoc:
1. Increase the bonus of Elven Arcanum, and allow all Elves to benefit from it, with Wizards benefiting more. (More info here).

Wrendd:
1. Give Elves both non-stacking Insight and stacking untyped benefits to AC while only holding racial weapons. (More info here).

[k1ngp1n]

*Lots of stuff*

Massively agreed.

Elven Arcanum needs a major boost. 60sp for that much AP? No thank you. It should be be huge, honestly. Try 200+ sp.

Racial damage and attack enhancements are ridiculously weak. Boost em. Seeker bonuses are good. Personally I think they should be bumped from +2 one-handed, +4 two handed to +3/+6. Except half-orcs.

[Falith12]

Great ideas. Maybe adding shield of whirling steel as a race automatic ability (don't remember whether feat or whatnot) at high levels to represent the eons they have spent to master their blade-craft. Elves are traditionally masters of sword-craft, and should get some advantages as such. This wouldn't help with offense, but might make them a little more survivable

[grodon9999]

Dwarfs (WF) should be the toughest.

Halflings should be the most sneaky.

Half-orcs should be the strongest.

Elves/Drow should be the most dexterous.

The problem is simply that what elves bring to the table isn't really of any value in end-game. My elf ranger is TR'd and 15 now and she is awesome, I know she's gonna not be as cool at cap but she's designed to be a fun short-man quester for levels 1-19 and not an epic power-house. It's just too much work shoving a square peg in a round hole or trying to get a dog to quack.

In end game HP and rawr-DPS matter the most, hell it's really all that matters. If defense via AC was still viable at end-game elven melees would be more viable. Lower the mob to-hit in Epics so a 75 AC elf with 450 HP can hang longer in a fight.

In D&D lore elves are master swordsman. Give ENH line that'd give them a few points of stacking insight AC to reflect this, along with your seeker idea.

Regarding weapons I'd give the rapier/Scimitar/longsword enhancements up to +4 to-hit/damage and have them only cost 1 AP each (same for dorfs and their axes, I'd also give them a War-Hammer and Pick line because it just makes sense). I'm serious and the DPS calc don't show this to be OTT.

Variety is a GOOD thing, give us a reason to make something else besides a Khopesh-wielding Half-orc.

I don't know enough about casters to give an informed opinion, but why should that stop me? Maybe some more DCs or something.

What I really miss from the old 2nd Edition D&D is that classic elven fight/mage. Include Spellswords in the game even if its just to make us old farts feel better.

[grodon9999]

Great ideas. Maybe adding shield of whirling steel as a race automatic ability (don't remember whether feat or whatnot) at high levels to represent the eons they have spent to master their blade-craft. Elves are traditionally masters of sword-craft, and should get some advantages as such. This wouldn't help with offense, but might make them a little more survivable

Not in the current state of the game.

I don't want elves to be half-orcs, I want them to be elves but I want what elves bring to the table to remain viable from levels 1-20.

That make any sense?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Dwarfs (WF) should be the toughest.

Halflings should be the most sneaky.

Half-orcs should be the strongest.

Elves/Drow should be the most dexterous.

I'm not sure I'd say "most dexterous", since Halflings have the same DEX and are also better for AC characters (yay +1 free AC from being tiny), but I do see your point.

Insight AC (only while wielding a racial weapon) wouldn't be that bad of an idea, as it wouldn't cause Elves to replace Halflings as the dominate AC characters since their extra AC is free and doesn't have any requirements attached to it. How much of a bonus were you thinking of?

[Yaga_Nub]

+1

[grodon9999]

I'm not sure I'd say "most dexterous", since Halflings have the same DEX and are also better for AC characters (yay +1 free AC from being tiny), but I do see your point.

I couldn't think of a better word, but you know what I mean?

[Nezichiend]

At least half-elves and drow fit into the flavour of elves in general.


Useless.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I couldn't think of a better word, but you know what I mean?

I think you mean being better able to dodge attacks (higher AC) from both their racial bonus to DEX and their strong background with swords?

[grodon9999]

Insight AC (only while wielding a racial weapon) wouldn't be that bad of an idea, as it wouldn't cause Elves to replace Halflings as the dominate AC characters since their extra AC is free and doesn't have any requirements attached to it. How much of a bonus were you thinking of?

I'm thinking 3 points, matches what the +3 HOs and WF get from their PA enhancements.

[rimble]

Maybe they're the obvious Arcane Archer choice...maybe...Half-Elves came and muddied that up too...

Anyways, I agree. They're an incredibly unattractive race, incidentally (I think) followed by Drow because of their similarities (at least Drow are getting their SR soon and have unique ability bonuses in their +2 Int/Cha).

Perhaps they could be some sort of TWF-favoring race...Elves and their two swords seems pretty iconic to me...

Maybe Tempest-like AC bonuses when TWFing?

Maybe a later Enhancement line for full Strength damage to off-hand attacks?

Stuff like that. Of course, just tossing things out there without further thought into the balance of it all...

[AylinIsAwesome]

I'm thinking 3 points, matches what the +3 HOs and WF get from their PA enhancements.

Hmm. 2/4/6 seems pretty expensive to get all of those then, but at the same time 1/2/3 seems too cheap. Maybe I'm not thinking of the AP cost properly?

[Nezichiend]

At least half-elves and drow fit into the flavour of elves in general.


Useless.

lol at the neg rep. Don't try to deny their uselessness

[jkm]

heh, the biggest issue in your post is the word "Khopesh" .

i don't think it would be that bad of a deal to have a 3rd tier to the racial weapon line. elves/drow get a +1 racial critical range mod in return for some negative effect (20% hate/5% fortification/10% more incoming damage whatever).

dwarves i'd just give a bump to the damage (+2 per tier).

[aristarchus1000]

/signed

Elves are the weakest race in the game right now, particularly at level 20. At least drow gets +2 bonuses in useful stats, but dexterity is one of the less useful stats in this game due to how the AC and to hits work at end-game.

That said, I'm not sure increasing damage is necessarily the answer for melee. I always considered them master technicians as fighters, so I'd consider a boost in tactics line? Unfortunately, it's still hard to compete with the half-orcs right now since all the tactics are based off of strength...

As far as the arcane side, I agree the Elven spellpoint boost is a joke. It needs to be doubled. At least.

[rimble]

heh, the biggest issue in your post is the word "Khopesh" .

"with racial weapons"

"with light off-hand weapons"

Whatever it takes to nerf those **** khopeshes, hehe..

[ssgcmwatson]

Insight AC (only while wielding a racial weapon) wouldn't be that bad of an idea

I think that's a great compromise

[AylinIsAwesome]

"with racial weapons"

"with light off-hand weapons"

Whatever it takes to nerf those **** khopeshes, hehe..

Not trying to nerf anything.


Just tired of one race being 100% useless for, well...everything. Going off of their racial weapons seemed both a good way to boost the race and to create more diversity in the weapons melees are using, both of which I see as a good thing.

[rimble]

I always considered them master technicians as fighters, so I'd consider a boost in tactics line?

That's interesting, why? I mean that sincerely. I think of grace, finesse, nature, mysticism...not thunking things on the head (Stunning Blow), or rending holes in armor (Sunder). I s'pose I could envision a nice graceful tripping maneuver during melee combat...

Hey, there's an idea...let them use that Dex for other stuff...Elven Improved Trip, you get to use your Dex modifier for Trip...? Or add (half) your Dex modifier? Dunno, do we want to promote Finesse builds? hehe