A Call to Improve the Viability of Elves

[AylinIsAwesome]

That's interesting, why? I mean that sincerely. I think of grace, finesse, nature, mysticism...not thunking things on the head (Stunning Blow), or rending holes in armor (Sunder). I s'pose I could envision a nice graceful tripping maneuver during melee combat...

Hey, there's an idea...let them use that Dex for other stuff...Elven Improved Trip, you get to use your Dex modifier for Trip...? Or add (half) your Dex modifier? Dunno, do we want to promote Finesse builds? hehe

While I'm not big on playing DEX-based myself, I can see how the bonus insight AC would work well with going DEX-based and using Rapiers, and letting them add all (or part of) their DEX mod to their Trip DC would certainly make them a more useful...

[k1ngp1n]

Just because they're dexterous doesn't mean they need dex-style enhancements. Elves in Eberron are not just 'elves,' they are broken into very separate cultures. The Valenar are horse-riding gods of war, wielding all forms of curved blade. Aerenals are master scholars and magicians. How elves came to be seen as bow-shooting hippies by the devs is beyond me.

Valenar are absolutely disciplined killers. They should be in DDO too.
Aerenal are masters of life and death. They should be in DDO too.

[grodon9999]

I think that's a great compromise

It's a start IF but it'd require the content to be adapted as well as the race.

[sirgog]

Insight AC (only while wielding a racial weapon) wouldn't be that bad of an idea, as it wouldn't cause Elves to replace Halflings as the dominate AC characters since their extra AC is free and doesn't have any requirements attached to it. How much of a bonus were you thinking of?

I like this idea.


Something like this:

Elvish Parrying 1
Min Level 10
AP cost: 2
Prereq: Dex of 18 (only allowing things that would let you qualify for Divine Might), some tiers of racial weapon bonuses
Effect: You gain a +2 insight bonus to AC when wielding weapons you have racial bonuses in.

Parrying 2 - min level 13, 2AP, 19 Dex, +3 insight
Parrying 3 - min level 16, 2AP, 20 Dex, +4 insight
Parrying 4 - min level 19, 2AP, 21 Dex, +5 insight

[rimble]

More 'agility' brainstorming stuff, no thought given to game balance:

Elven Evasion! Only against spells, save for 1/4 (instead of save for 1/2). Consider a higher tier Elven Improved Evasion, 3/4 damage on a failed save, 1/4 damage on a successful save. Consider if it should improve/interact with the regular Evasion feats any. Should help bolster up Elven survivability some.

Create an armor Max Dex Bonus line similar to the existing ones, Elven Armor Mastery, +MDB in Light/Medium armor. Consider merging it with the existing Elven Armor Mastery. Change Dwarven Armor Mastery to only work in Heavy (and maybe Medium) armor. Leave the Fighter line as is.

[Devonian]

Personally I think some mileage could be gained from playing up the cultural differences between the 3 elven groups.

Give the warlike ancestor venerating Valenar a chain of enhancements based on drawing upon the power of those lost heroes.

Let the Arenal, they who worship the Undying court of the Deathless, call upon those incarnate ancestors for aid.

Korvare... well they went native, let someone else figure things out.

[grodon9999]

I like this idea.


Something like this:

Elvish Parrying 1
Min Level 10
AP cost: 2
Prereq: Dex of 18 (only allowing things that would let you qualify for Divine Might), some tiers of racial weapon bonuses
Effect: You gain a +2 insight bonus to AC when wielding weapons you have racial bonuses in.

Parrying 2 - min level 13, 2AP, 19 Dex, +3 insight
Parrying 3 - min level 16, 2AP, 20 Dex, +4 insight
Parrying 4 - min level 19, 2AP, 21 Dex, +5 insight

I like this, a lot. This is a great idea.

Stacking with weapons of course

[AylinIsAwesome]

I like this idea.


Something like this:

Elvish Parrying 1
Min Level 10
AP cost: 2
Prereq: Dex of 18 (only allowing things that would let you qualify for Divine Might), some tiers of racial weapon bonuses
Effect: You gain a +2 insight bonus to AC when wielding weapons you have racial bonuses in.

Parrying 2 - min level 13, 2AP, 19 Dex, +3 insight
Parrying 3 - min level 16, 2AP, 20 Dex, +4 insight
Parrying 4 - min level 19, 2AP, 21 Dex, +5 insight

That's an awesome breakdown for the enhancement line, and I've added a link to your post into the OP.

Personally I think some mileage could be gained from playing up the cultural differences between the 3 elven groups.

Give the warlike ancestor venerating Valenar a chain of enhancements based on drawing upon the power of those lost heroes.

Let the Arenal, they who worship the Undying court of the Deathless, call upon those incarnate ancestors for aid.

Korvare... well they went native, let someone else figure things out.

Could you flesh that out a little more? I don't really know a lot about the lore of Elves in Eberron, so I don't really know what sort of things you're saying would improve them. The first one sounds something sorta like Bladesworn Transformation, while the second one is a summon?

[sirgog]

I like this, a lot. This is a great idea.

Stacking with weapons of course

Quite deliberately *not* stacking.

This way an Elf can use a Holy/Shocking Burst/Shocking Blast Lit 2 and get an Insight bonus, or they can use an Epic Mirage instead.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Quite deliberately *not* stacking.

This way an Elf can use a Holy/Shocking Burst/Shocking Blast Lit 2 and get an Insight bonus, or they can use an Epic Mirage instead.

I would agree that stacking +5 AC over other races would be a little obscene.

I guess technically this would let them reach a higher AC, say with a Monk splash, and still have a good DPS weapon. Lit 2 like you describe or Mineral 2 with Acid Blast on T3 for the first weapon, +2 WIS on the second weapon and +2 DEX on the ToD ring I could see working out.


Part of me likes it not stacking for that reason, and also to help newer players reach a good AC when they're first starting Shroud, but part of me doesn't like that in the end, it's just the same as a Halfling would get if they used an Insight 4 weapon.

I'd almost like the bonus to be smaller, but stacking if you can see my reasoning there.

[FaSo]

/signed

Elf is by far my fav race in DnD, all of my PnP people have been elfs and when i started playing ddo i was sad kuz of how bad they are compaired to like horc or WF

[QuantumFX]

First off, all the racial weapon enhancements need to be standardized to where there is only one chain and then lower the cost of the **** things. When you compare them to the Orcish Melee Damage enhancement you just have to sit there and think “Really Turbine?” This really isn’t elf specific though.

The Valenar enhancements should just give the weapon proficiencies as well. One of the things Kieth Baker suggested for the Eberron setting was to replace the elven free Rapier proficiency with Scimitar proficiency.

I’d like to see an elven monk enhancement that allows Valenar elves to use Scimitars as centered weapons. (Check out Races of Eberron for my justification.) Since Turbine sees the Falchion as a substitute for the Double scimitar they also have justification letting Valenar use thos as a centered weapon as well. (link)

Some light armor enhancements would be good too. Even if it was just something that allowed a Valenar to utilize Stalwart/Defender heavy armor bonuses while in light armor.

[dormetheus]

I suggest racial haste boost for the melees and racial efficient metamagics for the casters.

[sirgog]

I would agree that stacking +5 AC over other races would be a little obscene.

I guess technically this would let them reach a higher AC, say with a Monk splash, and still have a good DPS weapon. Lit 2 like you describe or Mineral 2 with Acid Blast on T3 for the first weapon, +2 WIS on the second weapon and +2 DEX on the ToD ring I could see working out.


Part of me likes it not stacking for that reason, and also to help newer players reach a good AC when they're first starting Shroud, but part of me doesn't like that in the end, it's just the same as a Halfling would get if they used an Insight 4 weapon.

I'd almost like the bonus to be smaller, but stacking if you can see my reasoning there.

It's the same as a halfling, but with a better weapon than the Halfling gets to use; especially when there are more juicy epic scimitars. So it's something that the elven race is clearly best at.

[noinfo]

I'm not sure I'd say "most dexterous", since Halflings have the same DEX and are also better for AC characters (yay +1 free AC from being tiny), but I do see your point.

Insight AC (only while wielding a racial weapon) wouldn't be that bad of an idea, as it wouldn't cause Elves to replace Halflings as the dominate AC characters since their extra AC is free and doesn't have any requirements attached to it. How much of a bonus were you thinking of?

I would suggest that it be another bonus type then insight. Also it should not just apply to racial weapons. It should be the equivalent of Dwarf Armour Mastery. Up to +2 AC.

Also whether this makes them higher ac then Halflings or not should not matter. Halfings get a bonus because of their size thats fine, and as you said they get that for free.

[AylinIsAwesome]

It's the same as a halfling, but with a better weapon than the Halfling gets to use; especially when there are more juicy epic scimitars. So it's something that the elven race is clearly best at.

Hmm, I suppose I see your point on this.

+5 Insight AC with Epic Xuum or 2 Epic Kronzek's cruelty's without having to spend two body slots on it could be very powerful.



Something that would need to be addressed though: would this bonus apply when using a racial weapon + any other weapon and shield, or only when using only racial weapons? I'd imagine that the latter would be harder to code for, but I honestly have no idea.

[noinfo]

Allow the racial enhancement bonus to be either dex or int. They will then gain the max int of drow with some investment, reflecting elven subtypes without OP them.

[karnokvolrath]

I have to agree with the OP, as it stands right now i cant justify making any build a elf.

On the tactical/finesse idea maybe something involving combat expetise and/or weapon finesse giving elves an advantage with those feats?

.
I’d like to see an elven monk enhancement that allows Valenar elves to use Scimitars as centered weapons. .

I REALLY like this idea, i think that some small tweaks to give class specific bonus's too elves may give them more of a chance.

[NaturalHazard]

I dont know for casters...... but arnt elves also suppose to be pretty good with enchantment spells? maybe add a cheap enchantment DC boost line that stacks with the class ones? Just a suggestion. (should make elven casters among the best at crowd control?

also like what some of you have come up with to improve melee.

Any chance the simitar centering could be extended to rapiers as well, esp as rapiers are finesable weapons? Not that anyone makes a dex based melee anymore?

[QuantumFX]

I’ll repost this idea as well even though the OP wasn’t too wild about it before.

Probably the only things I would want to add now is making High Elf Heritage the current +2 DEX enhancement and allowing Drow to choose a single +1/+2 Stat enhancement out of DEX/INT/CHA.

I hope this isn’t thread derail but I’ve always thought adding some enhancement chains that emulated various sub-types of elves would add interest to the race.

These enhancement chains are meant to help emulate various elven sub races. The reason they are giving +2 stats per tier to to represent the +2 to a stat that a subrace has in the D&D books and Turbine’s addition of Racial stat enhancements to DDO. You’ll notice that each subtype also gets a penalty to another stat to represent the penalties associated with the D&D books.

Elven Heritage: (Obviously only one heritage type can be taken.)

Gray Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to INT; -1 Feat penalty to STR
Gray Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to INT; -1 Feat penalty to STR. (Bringing the total bonuses to +4 INT/-2 STR)
Thoughts: This would give elven wizards a nice perk over drow. Drow would still maintain the edge on skill points though.

Wild Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to CON; -1 Feat penalty to INT; Qualifies for Racial Toughness III
Wild Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to CON -1 Feat penalty to INT; Qualifies for Racial Toughness IV. (Bringing the total bonuses to +4 CON/-2 INT)
Thoughts: OK, technically Wild elves don’t have a penalty to their CON but I was following a theme here! Another option could be a single 2 AP enhancement that has +2 CON/-2 INT and Qualifies the elf for Racial Toughness III and IV. The only other thing I don’t like is that the INT penalty wouldn’t be too much of a penalty as they still get the skill point before the penalty is applied.

Wood Elf Heritage I: Cost: 2 AP; +2 Feat bonus to STR; -1 Feat penalty to INT
Wood Elf Heritage II: Cost: 4 AP; +2 Feat bonus to STR; -1 Feat penalty to INT
(Bringing the total bonuses to +4 STR/-2 INT)
Thoughts: This would give DDO another race that can reach the same STR score as a healthy half-orc but would lose a bit of survivability. The only other thing I don’t like is that the INT penalty wouldn’t be too much of a penalty as they still get the skill point before the penalty is applied.