Dear Devs: A request re: threat mechanics discussion

[HallowedOne]

While the nature of stackability of +hate items is desirable, and should be known, I don't think anymore than that should be informed. That would take the unpredictability nature of the game, something that adds to challenge and one of the few ways to create unexpected results.

[Ralmeth]

Knowing the answers to Junts' first two questions would be helpful for any tank wanting to know what +hate generating equipment makes sense to wear.

[Eladrin]

I'll open up a major threat discussion sometime soon (probably within the next week or two). I've hinted before at some possible threat changes (when we added intimidate to Paladins), that I want to get an active discussion going to talk about them, about intimidate and the other social skills, and active tanking.

1: How do treasure threat effects interact? Is it highest-source only (wearing 20% and 10% threat bonuses means 10% does nothing) or all unique effects (wearing 20% and 10% causes both to work, wearing two 20% bonuses gives you only one benefit)?

2: How do threat effects interact with each other? Are they multiplicative with each other or additive to each other? (additive seems like it would cause issues with threat -reductions-, since you might be able to stack them to 0% threat, and leads most people to assume they are multiplicative). Are they a combination of the two even? (spell damage being [total metamagic bonuses] * [total enhancement/buff/equipment bonuses] * [base damage], there is precedent for that kind of interaction on DDO).

They stack additively. 20% + 10% = 130% threat generation. Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects.

I think that we currently have it set so threat reducers can't bring you below 50%, but I'll have to check.

3: Is threat permanent, based on damage dealt in the last 20-30 seconds, or does it decay in some fashion? Does aggro transfer when one person passes another at all, or when a certain threshold is passed (for example, WoW threat requires someone to reach 130% of the threat of the person who's currently got aggro before aggro will switch). the way mobs can bounce between aggro targets on DDO leads me to believe that there is no buffer zone, but you can't be sure.

Theat is mostly permanent. If you cease to be (died, left the dungeon, teleported), you'll drop off the threat list entirely. Monsters that teleport also clear their threat list, as do monsters that leash. Some monsters also have unique behaviors, or ignore the threat list entirely.

Aggro transfers when a monster re-evaluates its targets and someone else is at the top of the list. Monsters don't instantly switch targets when someone passes the previous top aggro target, they tend to stick to someone for several seconds unless someone forces reevaluation.

[pSINNa]

Wow, thankyou OP and thankyou Eladrin, this gets stickied for me.

Coit out~

[aristarchus1000]

Wow a real answer.

And an extremely helpful one, thank you.

This definitely gives me some material to think about. And thank you Junts by writing a well-written OP which results in an very helpful official response.

[Natashaelle]

1) Observe Arraetrikos. His random aggro is a well-known fact and is the reason that squishies in the back lines (in both 4 and 5) get fireballed; sometimes the fireball hits the rest party first, sometimes it gets to the back line squishy. When running ungeared at-level elite runs, I take advantage of this aggro pattern to use a different part 4 strategy that ensures non-evasion toons are seldom fireballed. It works, hence I am certain that his aggro is random. Horoth and Turigulon, despite also being Pit Fiends, have standard threat-based aggro, again easy to test.

I don't think it's so random -- some factors I believe to be increasive of one's aggro magnetism are - opposite alignment to Harry's, being a cleric, Favoured Enemy: Evil Outsiders. Then the various threat increasing PrEs and gear of course...

Damage *does* also generate threat, which is why the mêlée can usually keep him pinned to one location with dps aggro management -- but more than once I have been or have seen an archer stealing aggro with manyshot and a few crits in quick succession, and Harry suddenly charging the archer.

[sirgog]

I don't think it's so random -- some factors I believe to be increasive of one's aggro magnetism are - opposite alignment to Harry's, being a cleric, Favoured Enemy: Evil Outsiders. Then the various threat increasing PrEs and gear of course...

Damage *does* also generate threat, which is why the mêlée can usually keep him pinned to one location with dps aggro management -- but more than once I have been or have seen an archer stealing aggro with manyshot and a few crits in quick succession, and Harry suddenly charging the archer.

On plenty of occasions I've seen him charge AFK players in part 5. And the only way melees can keep him in one spot is to surround him. Back before the majority of the playerbase understood his aggro, we tried many things like having certain players not attack or cast anything, and we came up with two things: 1) He sees you wherever in part 5 you are and 2) Nothing you do other than Intimidate or Diplo affects his aggro.

He is every bit as likely to charge the Ranger using Clubs of the Holy Flame as he is to charge the Barbarian that's thumping him with a Devil's Ruin imbued eSoS. And he's just as likely to charge the cleric that's regenerating mana.

[RandomKeypress]

<SNIP>
They stack additively. 20% + 10% = 130% threat generation. Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects.

I think that we currently have it set so threat reducers can't bring you below 50%, but I'll have to check.
<SNIP>

Wow - thanks Eladrin for this really useful information. Could you please check with regards to the threat reducers? Rogues, for example, have threat reducing enhancements that give -40%. As this is additive and -50% is the best we can do, any threat reduction beyond 10% would mean we have an extra 4AP to spend - I'd really like that.

[SiliconShadow]

After Eladrin's post I understand being once a threat based tank now an intimitank how Arraetrikos works.

I understood how the % threat modifiers work, what you need to make them work, and how they fail, I also saw how before that the stances where clearly broken that even swinging 180+ crits with 400+ smites I couldn't pull threat with just stance but with my Divine Rightousness it was a doddle with or without the stance.

"Some mobs have unique behaviours" Arraetrikos Will be intimidated sometimes, if you intimidate him mid way through an animation he won't come to you 50% of the time but if its at the end he will turn to you instantly, he basically is using tactics, he wants the healer dead, he wants the caster dead, in part 4 with the proper timing you can intimitank him properly and easily, just don't spam intimidate wait till animation ends to make sure the agro is on you, spamming can seem succesful but it works better with no lag and good timing as also stated by many intimidators in the past.

2 types of threat exist:
Intimidate: Instant to the top of the table
Threat increase: Your damage is increased before the number is put into the threat table, I see this wholy working like spell amplification/healing amplification and as such a 40 points of damage could easily turn into 120 points of threat.

At the moment it is still all speculation aside from the intimidation which its accurate use is still down to how laggy you are.

The threat based tank will need a nicely balanced build to make the most of these benefits.

In order to theorise this, you could take the dps spread sheet and alter it into a threat table sheet and see what you would need on a tank build in the terms of dps to outmatch a barbarian for example so you can build accordingly, the forthcoming discussion might also help with this.

[Eladrin]

Wow - thanks Eladrin for this really useful information. Could you please check with regards to the threat reducers? Rogues, for example, have threat reducing enhancements that give -40%. As this is additive and -50% is the best we can do, any threat reduction beyond 10% would mean we have an extra 4AP to spend - I'd really like that.

Looks like I was wrong on that one (I was working from memory in that post). There's currently no minimum to threat reduction (so you could theoretically drop all the way to 0), but we'll likely adjust that and add a minimum threat multiplier in the pass I was talking about. The actual minimum value would be still to be determined.

2 types of threat exist:
Intimidate: Instant to the top of the table
Threat increase: Your damage is increased before the number is put into the threat table, I see this wholy working like spell amplification/healing amplification and as such a 40 points of damage could easily turn into 120 points of threat.

Currently Intimidate just makes you the target for 6 seconds, it doesn't modify threat very much. (There's a tiny amount of threat attached to the action.) I'd actually rather it actually put you on the top of the threat table instead (since this allows for recovering after the death of the tank, and means that the monster will stick to you for longer than six seconds if it's not being stolen away by others).

"Some mobs have unique behaviours" Arraetrikos Will be intimidated sometimes, if you intimidate him mid way through an animation he won't come to you 50% of the time but if its at the end he will turn to you instantly, he basically is using tactics, he wants the healer dead, he wants the caster dead, in part 4 with the proper timing you can intimitank him properly and easily, just don't spam intimidate wait till animation ends to make sure the agro is on you, spamming can seem succesful but it works better with no lag and good timing as also stated by many intimidators in the past.

Arraetrikos is one of those. Your intimidate should keep his melee attacks on you, but some of his spells don't use the threat list.

[Malithar45]

I think that we currently have it set so threat reducers can't bring you below 50%, but I'll have to check.

Thanks much Eladrin. Can't wait for the more detailed post concerning threat multipliers, reducers, and the social skill changes. As for the quoted part, some clarification once you check would be much appreciated, as all of the treasure reducers are in chunks of -20%, or Treason which is worded much differently, setting your threat gen to 80%. As was mentioned above too, rogues with their Subtle Backstabbing line generally have 20-40% enhancement reduction, making anything more than one reduction effect (if they even stack, as they're the exact same number with an unknown type) a redundancy, less you drop the line all the way to the 10% mark.

Good info regardless, and glad to see Junts was able to get a response on this topic, as it was indeed needed.

Edit: Should learn to refresh. XD Glad to see that currently the reduction doesn't have a max amount. Here's hoping you cut it off at -60% or more, as two item sets and two tiers of Subtle Backstabbing or one item set and four tiers of SB are fairly common, if not needed for a DPS rogue.

[Natashaelle]

On plenty of occasions I've seen him charge AFK players in part 5.

ah sorry, I was thinking Part 4...

[sephiroth1084]

Thank you, Eladrin! I love these sorts of responses!

Currently Intimidate just makes you the target for 6 seconds, it doesn't modify threat very much. (There's a tiny amount of threat attached to the action.) I'd actually rather it actually put you on the top of the threat table instead (since this allows for recovering after the death of the tank, and means that the monster will stick to you for longer than six seconds if it's not being stolen away by others).

I like the sound of this!

Arraetrikos is one of those. Your intimidate should keep his melee attacks on you, but some of his spells don't use the threat list.

It's been a while since I bothered trying to intimidate Arretrikos in part 5, but I seem to recall that a successful intimidate will draw his attention to you for only a moment before he turns elsewhere.

Speaking of which, can you comment on whether intimidate has been functioning properly? It seems like after the last update (or around that time), intimidate stopped holding aggro on some monsters for its full 6 second duration. Notably, Horoth appears to break off from a successful intimidate after about 3 seconds, making it impossible to retain aggro on him using this method.

Again, than you very much for the responses to this thread! /hug

Oh! And if you're Jewish, Happy Chanukah! And if you're not, go enjoy the rest of your month you **** goy!

[SiliconShadow]

Looks like I was wrong on that one (I was working from memory in that post). There's currently no minimum to threat reduction (so you could theoretically drop all the way to 0), but we'll likely adjust that and add a minimum threat multiplier in the pass I was talking about. The actual minimum value would be still to be determined.

So this means that a rogue backstabbing a boss almost straight after a threat tank goes on can start the dps without having any effect, I wonder what effect the max reduction would have on this is.

Currently Intimidate just makes you the target for 6 seconds, it doesn't modify threat very much. (There's a tiny amount of threat attached to the action.) I'd actually rather it actually put you on the top of the threat table instead (since this allows for recovering after the death of the tank, and means that the monster will stick to you for longer than six seconds if it's not being stolen away by others).

At the top of the threat table is where your sister game puts the intimitank when they intimidate and I would of thought the logical place of it being, the amount of threat generated by an intimidate would be nice too know and if it stacks with the threat from threat increase, especially if you have to stop to intimidate.

Arraetrikos is one of those. Your intimidate should keep his melee attacks on you, but some of his spells don't use the threat list.

This allows us to see how it works exactly without guessing, and as such new tactics can be formed, ie we cannot intimidate vs his spells so have a ranged ranger with a good evasion body block the casters from his spells, with correct positioning and teamwork this new information and the new skill changes should tighten up team work and raids extensively.

Questions back:
If you intimidate does it add a value into the threat table according to your score or is it a fixed value?
If so is this value increased by threat modifiers like the new stances and Divine Rightousness?

[HallowedOne]

They stack additively. 20% + 10% = 130% threat generation. Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects.

So this means the ToD pally set bonus of 15% extra hate doesn't stack with Tier II DT armor 15%? Or the contrary?

[SiliconShadow]

So this means the ToD pally set bonus of 15% extra hate doesn't stack with Tier II DT armor 15%? Or the contrary?

My understanding is it might or at least it should, he said they tried to make them all unique bonuses, which imo with the dps of some people out thier it is needed badly in order to start the boss as soon as possible.

[Junts]

I'll open up a major threat discussion sometime soon (probably within the next week or two). I've hinted before at some possible threat changes (when we added intimidate to Paladins), that I want to get an active discussion going to talk about them, about intimidate and the other social skills, and active tanking.


They stack additively. 20% + 10% = 130% threat generation. Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects.

I think that we currently have it set so threat reducers can't bring you below 50%, but I'll have to check.


Theat is mostly permanent. If you cease to be (died, left the dungeon, teleported), you'll drop off the threat list entirely. Monsters that teleport also clear their threat list, as do monsters that leash. Some monsters also have unique behaviors, or ignore the threat list entirely.

Aggro transfers when a monster re-evaluates its targets and someone else is at the top of the list. Monsters don't instantly switch targets when someone passes the previous top aggro target, they tend to stick to someone for several seconds unless someone forces reevaluation.

Insert declaration of love here.

I notice that teleporting monsters only seem to clear the threat list if they cannot see the person who they were targetting when they come out of the teleport: if you can position yourself in front of them and hit them as they appear, you seem to retain all threat you had with them. Since they like to teleport to flank and can end up facing odd directions, though, its very difficult to do this reliably.

I look forward to the official discussion thread, and appreciate the response.

[stainer]

I don't think it's so random -- some factors I believe to be increasive of one's aggro magnetism are - opposite alignment to Harry's, being a cleric, Favoured Enemy: Evil Outsiders. Then the various threat increasing PrEs and gear of course...

Damage *does* also generate threat, which is why the mêlée can usually keep him pinned to one location with dps aggro management -- but more than once I have been or have seen an archer stealing aggro with manyshot and a few crits in quick succession, and Harry suddenly charging the archer.

Arraetrikos is one of those. Your intimidate should keep his melee attacks on you, but some of his spells don't use the threat list.

Looks like the spells don't use a threat. According to a dev anyway.

[CaptGrim]

I think its important to say that changes to make intim add threat would be welcome, but imo keeping distinct tanking stlyes are important to have.

There is no hate tanking in hox or on harry
And threat tanking is much "safer" in tod

I think having places in game where one method or the other works better is good design, its also good to have to make investments in one stlye or the other(via gear, feats, etc.) And should not easy to build and gear a character that can do both.

Thanks for the response El and I'm looking forward to the discussion on the topic.

[sweez]

Arraetrikos is one of those. Your intimidate should keep his melee attacks on you, but some of his spells don't use the threat list.

This explains Harry's behavior in part 4; it doesn't explain his behavior in part 5, where intimidate seems to have absolutely no effect.