build opinions and fixes?

[Taimasan]

I have to say that I really don't understand all of what your talking bout still but I would have to agree that having a extra dice step would certainly change things. I do think that you are being a little too lenient in your math because everything about it seems to be with perfect conditions, perfect gear setup, with gear that is not even in the game yet and still subject to change. I for one think that wearing the epic scale where I can slot different things brings more to the table besides dps than the garments. Furthermore having a 36 strength in a epic quest without wearing the epic spectral gloves is going to put me at a disadvantage if I want to put power attack on with a 40 strength and land almost all my hits. Ive found that in quest if you can't land the hits then you are not doing alot of dps. I think that while your math is probably right, it contains alot of assumptions I don't believe that are realistic and fair, i.e. always hitting on a 2, sun user not having crane(I never even looked at the Metaru build but I have crane path on my fire path monk with void iv and full ninja spy).

[manfredshw]

When both hasted, wind4 can never keep up dps with fire4.
This dps gap even larger when both fighting a named boss that cannot be stunned.

Today I believe it it update 7 on live, right?
Wind stance is so weak. Even post u6, wind stance can't keep up dps with fire stance.

Here ki regain rate is a big issue.
If you think your ki regain rate is enough in wind stance, then you should think about that your monk haven't doing your best and as much as possible ki strikes.

Note: during a ki strike cool down, that is 3s, you can add 5 ki strikes when your first ki strike on timer.
Sometimes, fist of darkness add many dps, and this drain your ki very fast.

For example: sully fight, rotate:
wind4>wind3>fist of darkness>earth4>earth3>void4
8 7 10 8 7 8
that is: 48ki

[AylinIsAwesome]

I have to say that I really don't understand all of what your talking bout still but I would have to agree that having a extra dice step would certainly change things. I do think that you are being a little too lenient in your math because everything about it seems to be with perfect conditions, perfect gear setup, with gear that is not even in the game yet and still subject to change. I for one think that wearing the epic scale where I can slot different things brings more to the table besides dps than the garments. Furthermore having a 36 strength in a epic quest without wearing the epic spectral gloves is going to put me at a disadvantage if I want to put power attack on with a 40 strength and land almost all my hits. Ive found that in quest if you can't land the hits then you are not doing alot of dps. I think that while your math is probably right, it contains alot of assumptions I don't believe that are realistic and fair, i.e. always hitting on a 2, sun user not having crane(I never even looked at the Metaru build but I have crane path on my fire path monk with void iv and full ninja spy).

20 BAB
4 GH
2 Flanking
5 Tharne's
2 Handwraps
2 Recitation
-8 PA
8 Bard Song (from splashed Warchanter)
1 Haste

That's +35, before STR Mod. With 36 STR that's a +49 to-hit. Against mobs that can't be held, webbed, stunned or danced and have a high AC it's probable that someone (say a Cleric) is using a Rahl's Might on the mob to apply Improved Destruction.

Additionally, note that the handwraps I used for this calculation are just +2 Devout handwraps. The mobs I can think of that require a stellar to-hit to beat their AC do not require Silver + Good, so improvements to the handwraps can add up to +7 to that to-hit as well. Actually, the only mobs that I fight on a regular basis that require me to turn PA off on melee are the djinns in eVON6, and only if no one is applying Destruction to the mobs. Even then, I'm ok with turning Power Attack off for that fight, since it doesn't last more than 15 seconds anyway.

Plus, that excludes Rage (my Monk will have 36 STR before Rage, 38 with), Madstone Rage and Titan's Grip.


As for the assumptions in gear, I like to plan for the best. As one of my conclusions in my previous post though I did state that undergeared Monks would be better off in Sun Stance, and then switching to Wind Stance as they got more gear. It would be easy to simply plug in the gear you have and solve for the STR you would need for Wind to beat Sun to see when it is best to make the change. Additionally, I gave the Sun Stance user better gear, as Epic Red Dragonscale Robe/Docent is arguably the best DPS body slot available to Monks, and I didn't give that to Wind.

As far as you having Crane path, you've also stated that you are not permanently hasted (and you use Jorgundal's Collar, which only provides a +10% speed increase instead of a +25% speed increase to attacks), and the assumption is that the Sun Stance user is never going without Haste. In situations where you are permanently hasted are you absolutely requiring the extra Ki from Crane? Please differentiate between auto-crit and non-auto-crit situations.

When both hasted, wind4 can never keep up dps with fire4.

In the current update I believe I just showed that with my math (providing the Monk with Sun Stance has Epic Red Dragonscale and the mobs are not fire immune or resistant). I wouldn't be able to say that "wind 4 can never keep up with sun 4" in terms of DPS as that is just false.

In U8 when the garments come out, the situation changes heavily though, putting Wind 4 back on top.

This dps gap even larger when both fighting a named boss that cannot be stunned.

In the calculations I showed above, raid boss conditions are used (50% Fort, needing Silver + Good to bypass DR,ect).

Using better handwraps for trash would of course widen the gap, but in favour of the Wind Monk, not the Sun one.

Today I believe it it update 7 on live, right?

Yes, that's true. I believe I was clear in stating that a Wind Monk would need these new U8 garments to beat Sun Stance, and that in the current update Sun > Wind.

But once again, the situation will change when U8 comes out and the garments become available.

Wind stance is so weak. Even post u6, wind stance can't keep up dps with fire stance.

Do you have evidence of this?

Here ki regain rate is a big issue.
If you think your ki regain rate is enough in wind stance, then you should think about that your monk haven't doing your best and as much as possible ki strikes.

In the calculations I did, both Monks had approximately the same Ki generation, with Wind having slightly more due the extra attacks from doublestrike.

Are you saying it's impossible to have enough Ki without Sun Stance + Oremi's/Crane Path?

I'm basing the decision not to give the Sun Stance Monk either Crane or Oremi's because of Hokonoso's Monk and Hydro's Monk, both of whom have stated that a major advantage to Fire Stance is that you aren't required to lower your Fort save with Crane or lose the Shintao set bonus from being forced to use Oremi's.

Additionally, the situation I used in my calculations was not auto-crit, so any situation what would give more than enough Ki to keep going.

Note: during a ki strike cool down, that is 3s, you can add 5 ki strikes when your first ki strike on timer.
Sometimes, fist of darkness add many dps, and this drain your ki very fast.

For example: sully fight, rotate:
wind4>wind3>fist of darkness>earth4>earth3>void4
8 7 10 8 7 8
that is: 48ki

This is some helpful information.

I'll be able to use this (not today though; too busy) to add Ki strikes in at some point and more conclusively show the difference between Wind and Sun stances, whatever that may be.

[Taimasan]

20 BAB
4 GH
2 Flanking
5 Tharne's
2 Handwraps
2 Recitation
-8 PA
8 Bard Song (from splashed Warchanter)
1 Haste

In a epic dungeon not a raid you don't tend to count on a bard being avail, or recitation constantly being up. And if your doing this great amount of dps you cannot count on the flanking and tharnes adding to your hit as well. I see these as assumptions and situational.

As far as you having Crane path, you've also stated that you are not permanently hasted (and you use Jorgundal's Collar, which only provides a +10% speed increase instead of a +25% speed increase to attacks), and the assumption is that the Sun Stance user is never going without Haste. In situations where you are permanently hasted are you absolutely requiring the extra Ki from Crane? Please differentiate between auto-crit and non-auto-crit situations.

I don't understand where you are getting the 25% speed increase from, Wind IV caps you at 15% enhancement speed with 10% double strike chance. With madstone rage I can close the gap even further if I don't want to put on the jourgy neck. And haste is just the icing on the cake. Fire IV + Haste = Wind IV speed. Jourgy neck puts me a little below Wind III and Jourgy neck puts me on par with Wind III. Maybe the 25% increase was a typo. Furthermore a couple of stacks of potions or a few shroud clickies can usually take care of a haste addiction till another shrine.

Just want it to be known I am not trying to be hostile with you or anything, just trying to have a adult conversation.

[AylinIsAwesome]

In a epic dungeon not a raid you don't tend to count on a bard being avail, or recitation constantly being up. And if your doing this great amount of dps you cannot count on the flanking and tharnes adding to your hit as well. I see these as assumptions and situational.

In a quest though, most mobs you won't need a very high to-hit, since once they're stunned, held, webbed or commanded they lose a lot of AC.

Against red names which can't be crowd controlled that way, your party members (at least the people I run with) always make sure to pass the relevant buffs, which is why I included them. When I do eADQ2 and eVON6 those are the buffs I generally run with (unless we can't get a Bard).

I don't understand where you are getting the 25% speed increase from, Wind IV caps you at 15% enhancement speed with 10% double strike chance. With madstone rage I can close the gap even further if I don't want to put on the jourgy neck. And haste is just the icing on the cake. Fire IV + Haste = Wind IV speed. Jourgy neck puts me a little below Wind III and Jourgy neck puts me on par with Wind III. Maybe the 25% increase was a typo.

You're right, it was a typo on my part. I'm a little rushed today.

Furthermore a couple of stacks of potions or a few shroud clickies can usually take care of a haste addiction till another shrine.

Well, you'd also lose attacks to rebuff Haste with potions or Shroud clickies, so that would have a measurable effect on your DPS.

Just want it to be known I am not trying to be hostile with you or anything, just trying to have a adult conversation.

I'm not meaning to be hostile either.

The way I'm seeing it though, there are two things that would prevent Wind from being better DPS than Sun. The first is to-hit issues, which I can look at more in-depth tomorrow, provided I can find information on the highest AC mobs (and account for increases in to-hit as the attack chain progresses). I'll use A-O's DPS calculator to get the number of attacks when I get home tonight.

The other is Ki generation issues and use of Ki strikes. This is probably going to be the most complicated part, and where I'll need help from I think. In auto-crit situations I don't think there is any disagreement about both Wind and Sun being able to generate enough Ki, so I'm going to focus on non-auto-crit situations. Could you give me the ideal Ki strike rotation you use every minute on raid bosses (so that ToD can proc 4 times during it)? Anyone else helping out would be greatly appreciated too.

I'll use that to compare the total difference in damage on Sun + Ki Strikes to Wind + Ki Strikes.

Quite frankly, whichever is better is what I'll build for.

[Fafnir]

I predominantly play epics (whether epic quests or epic raids). I find 'to hit' to be an issue that is underplayed in these sorts of calculations.

Importantly:
- Fire stance is a bonus to the to hit stat for STR based monks (say Half Orc);
- Wind stance obviously gives a bonus to the to hit stance of a dex based monk (say Halfling).

[manfredshw]

Our guildies including me, we playing fire stance monk with oremi.
3ki/hit, and with hound animal path for extra to hit.

We have enough ki for trashes,
for boss fighting, we always store a full ki bar when we fighting some trashes.
Then charge to the boss with full ki bar.

If we are not luckily enough to roll more 19-20 for critical attack. We will not rotate as much as possible ki strikes in the following 45s later. Then to gain enough ki for tod, and for the highest level strikes priority. Do not have to use inferior ki strikes.

For example, when ki is not enough, rotate:
wind4 earth4 void4 tod

That is the way how a monk to keep up dps with barbs.