build opinions and fixes?

[Sallik]

So I took anthios' horcrux build and made a few tweaks and wondering what others opinions on it would be and where i might be able to make improvements.

Gear not included, planning on a non litany gear buildout though, most likely gem of many facets.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.2
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Karraak D'Voran
Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Orc Female
(20 Monk)
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 15/15/20/2525
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 15
Will: 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 22
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 6 8
Wisdom 16 24
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 25
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 6 38
Diplomacy -2 1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1
Heal 3 9
Hide 2 3
Intimidate -2 -1
Jump 7 22
Listen 3 7
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -2 -1
Search -2 -1
Spot 3 7
Swim 4 6
Tumble 3 6
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I

Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I

Level 4 (Monk)
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II

Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I

Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Flame

Level 7 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I

Level 8 (Monk)
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Figghting
Enhancement: Touch of Death

Level 10 (Monk)
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II

Level 11 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Adept of Rock

Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Soldier of the Faith
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II

Level 13 (Monk)
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires

Level 14 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II

Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II

Level 16 (Monk)
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder

Level 17 (Monk)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Void Strike II

Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun

Level 19 (Monk)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III

Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains

[t0r012]

looks good to me only recommendation I have is to take improved concentration over either the jump or tumble. i'd probably skip the improved tumble myself.

[Sallik]

jump and tumble are required for ninja spy

[AylinIsAwesome]

It's much easier for people to provide feedback on your enhancements if they're all listed at level 20, instead of spread out across 20 levels.

Two things though:

1. You don't actually qualify for GM in Earth since with your +2 CON tome you only have 17 CON, and you need 18 before items and enhancements.
2. GM in Wind Stance is better DPS than GM in Sun Stance.

[Taimasan]

2. GM in Wind Stance is better DPS than GM in Sun Stance.

Why do you think so?? Im assuming this is a opinion based on your gear and play style not as a fact.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Why do you think so?? Im assuming this is a opinion based on your gear and play style not as a fact.

Assumptions:

1. Always hit on a 2.
2. Confirm criticals on a 1.
3. Wind Stance user uses Garments of Equilibrium, Oremi's Necklace, Oremi's Ring, and has Crane 4.
4. Sun Stance user uses Shintao Cord, Kyosho's Ring, Epic Red Dragonscale Robe and does not have Crane 4 (as per the Metaru Build since Hydro has stated repeatedly that he is able to keep up with constant Ki strikes and ToD without Crane or Oremi's).
5. Ki generation for both Monks is about the same (slightly in favour of the Wind Stance), so I'm leaving Ki strikes out.
6. Rings have Holy Burst and Shocking Burst.
7. Mobs are not immune to Acid, Electricity, or Fire.
8. Both Monks are STR-based.
9. Devout Handwraps are used.
10. Monk is Ninja Spy and wearing Tharne's (total 3d6+8 SA).
11. Mobs have 50% Fort.
12. Both Monks are Half-Orc, and have full PA enhancements.
13. Both Monks are using Epic Gloves of the Claw and Epic Bracers of the Claw
14. Situation is not auto-crit.
15. Both Monks are using Knost's Belt and Encrusted Ring.
16. "Average" rolls for dice are used. 1d6 is treated as 3.5, and so on.
17. Both Monks have the past life feat to increase damage by one step.
18. Sun Stance has Haste, so attack speeds are equal.
19. Bard songs are not taken into account.
20. Both Monks are using a Bloodstone (non-Epic).
21. Both Monks have Improved Critical.
22. Both Monks have GTWF.



Wind Stance user:

1.9 * (.5 * (3.5 * 3 + 8) * .95 + .95 * (3.5 * 5) + .9 * (x + 15 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 4) + .05 * 2 * (x + 15 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 4) + .05 * (3.5 * 3 + 5.5))

Sun Stance user:

1.8 * (.5 * (3.5 * 3 + 8) * .95 + .95 * (3.5 * 5) + .9 * (x + 13 + 2 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 2) + .05 * 2 (x + 13 + 2 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 2) + .05 * (3.5 * 3 + 5.5 * 2))


The first number relates the number of attacks relative to the other one (Wind Stance has 1.1 main hand + .8 off hand, Sun Stance has 1 main hand and .8 off hand).

Second set of numbers is the sneak attack, reduced by 50% due to Fort.

Third set is the on-hit effects (1d6 Fire, 2d6 Holy, 1d6 Pure Good, 1d6 Shock).

Fourth set is the non-critical damage, with x being STR-mod. In order, they are damage from fists, extra damage from stance due to STR-increase (if applicable), damage from PA, damage from FB set, + from handwraps, Epic Claw set, Shintao set (if applicable).

Fifth set is the critical damage, with x again being STR-mod. In order, they are damage from fists, extra damage from increased STR due to stance (if applicable), damage from PA, damage from FB set, damage from handwraps, seeker from bloodstone, damage from Epic Claw set, damage from Shintao set (if applicable).

EDIT 2: Sixth set is the damage from burst effects on criticals. Holy Burst is 3d6, Shocking Burst and Flaming Burst are both 1d10.

Critical is only at 5% due to 50% fort negating half of the critical rolls, which is also why non-critical is at 90% instead of 85%.



Setting the two equal and solving for x yields a value of -8.5375. In other words, you'd have to lose damage from your STR mod before they would be equal, which is impossible.

So setting x to be 10 (for 30 STR) in both equations shows that Wind gets to 128.844 damage, and Sun gets to 126.99 damage.



Therefore, Wind Stance > Sun Stance. The difference isn't so huge as to be crippling, but the fact is Wind Stance is better than Sun Stance for DPS. Additionally, it has the added benefit of not lowering the DCs on your Stunning Fist (which is infinitely better than Stunning Blow) and ToD.


However, before Oremi's necklace is acquired Sun Stance would be better because of the Ki generation.



EDIT: As an add-on, since the extra .1 on Wind Stance is doublestrike, the Wind Stance user will occasionally get extra benefits from Ki strikes, further putting Wind over Sun.

[Taimasan]

I don't really understand all that math. So can you put it to me simply how with equal equipment and equal speed with sun having higher strength than wind. That outdps's sun?? Or are you saying if they both were at 30 strength???? Sorry if I can't get on your level, I am just not a math person. I just find it a little hard to believe that with my build I have 40 strength with sun, and 36 strength in wind iv, with less ki generation for strikes, that wind is going to outperform sun. Or you saying its the double strike? And wouldnt the doublestrike chance be relative since it is not 100% except with relentless song?

EDIT: it would probably be more appropriate for a person that is good at math to concur or deny these findings by Aylin.

Im also getting reports that the data is inherently flawed on the assumption that both builds would have the same strength, but as I said before I am not sure. Assuming wind and sun builds would have equal strength might be a little unrealistic. Plus fire would most likely get more ki generation for strikes against fortified monsters. But like I said before, all this data is kinda just assumptions since there is no true way to measure dps in the game.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I don't really understand all that math.

Set equal:
1.9 * (.5 * (3.5 * 3 + 8) * .95 + .95 * (3.5 * 5) + .9 * (x + 15 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 4) + .05 * 2 * (x + 15 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 4) + .05 * (3.5 * 3 + 5.5)) = 1.8 * (.5 * (3.5 * 3 + 8) * .95 + .95 * (3.5 * 5) + .9 * (x + 13 + 2 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 2) + .05 * 2 (x + 13 + 2 + 8 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 4 + 2) + .05 * (3.5 * 3 + 5.5 * 2))

Simplify:
1.9 * (8.7875 + 16.625 + .9 * (x + 31) + .1 * (x + 37) + .8) = 1.8 * (8.7875 + 16.625 + .9 * (x + 33) + .1 * (x + 39) + 1.075)

1.9 * (26.2125 + .9x + 27.9 + .1x + 3.7) = 1.8 * (26.4875 + .9x + 29.7 + .1x + 3.9)

1.9 * (57.8125 + x) = 1.8 * (60.0875 + x)

109.844 + 1.9x = 108.158 + 1.8x

Solve for x:

.1x = -1.686

x = -16.86

I hope that lets you see my math clearer.

The difference between this number and the number in my last post reflects an error I made somewhere when adding up all of the damage bonuses of the Sun Stance user the first time.

The new numbers for 30 STR (before stance benefits) are:

Sun: 126.158
Wind: 128.844

So can you put it to me simply how with equal equipment and equal speed with sun having higher strength than wind.

As I stated in my assumptions, Sun has equal speed to Wind from benefiting from Haste.

As for equal gear, I see no reason to assume that. Shintao Set + Red Dragon is best for Sun Stance, and Oremi's Set + the new robe is best for Wind Stance. I have no idea why a player would ever wear gear that would not be best for the stance they're using. Since as far as I know, Oremi's Set won't stack with Red Dragon, so the Wind stance has no reason to use that robe. Additionally, why would a Sun user wear the Garments with Red Dragon being better since it doesn't conflict with any of that player's other gear? The difference in the sets was made to make up for the additional Ki generation that Sun stance has.

Assuming both in Oremi's + Garments or Shintao + Red Dragon wouldn't tell anyone anything of any value at all.


Plus, Sun does have higher STR than Wind in my calculation. x is the STR value before stances are used, and you'll note that there's an extra + 2 in the Sun stance calculations to reflect that Sun stance gives +4 STR.

That outdps's sun?? Or are you saying if they both were at 30 strength????

I chose 30 STR as an arbitrary value, as that is relatively easy to reach. The point was that at any value for STR before stance mods, that Wind would be greater DPS.

Sorry if I can't get on your level, I am just not a math person. I just find it a little hard to believe that with my build I have 40 strength with sun, and 36 strength in wind iv, with less ki generation for strikes, that wind is going to outperform sun.

Again, as stated in my assumptions, both setups have about the same Ki generation. They are both attacking at the same speed (due to Sun having Haste), both gain +2 Ki on hit (from Wind having Oremi's), and both gain extra Ki on criticals (due to Wind having Crane).

Inputting 13 for x, as would be the case for your Monk, Wind goes to 134.544 and Sun goes to 131.558.

Or you saying its the double strike? And wouldnt the doublestrike chance be relative since it is not 100% except with relentless song?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Wind stance gives +10% doublestrike to the main hand, so during the amount of time a Sun User with Haste would hit 10 times, the Wind User would hit for 11 times on average. Ignoring the changes to the TWF feats, the only thing the change to wind stance did to the total number of attacks is reduce the off hand number of attacks to .8 from .88.

Bard songs were not included in the calculation, but you could add that in by changing the first number (1.9 to 1.95 and 1.8 to 1.85) to see what happens. I have not done this since I don't always run with a Bard, and don't see the point.


EDIT:

Im also getting reports that the data is inherently flawed on the assumption that both builds would have the same strength, but as I said before I am not sure. Assuming wind and sun builds would have equal strength might be a little unrealistic.

I do not see how it unrealistic to assume that both Monks would have the exact same stats before stance benefits. Both monks are STR-based in my calculations.

Plus fire would most likely get more ki generation for strikes against fortified monsters. But like I said before, all this data is kinda just assumptions since there is no true way to measure dps in the game.

In the assumptions I used, both stances have approximately the same Ki generation, with Wind coming out slightly ahead, as Oremi's necklace makes up for the fact that fire gets +1 Ki on hits automatically.

[Taimasan]

Oh I still don't understand the math but I think your saying with new robe that raises the unarmed dice??? Now it makes more sense seeing that the damage is sort of stacked in wind's favor. That I can see prehaps being true if your giving wind a higher unarmed dice than fire, what if both were at the same unarmed dice? But I am a double TR monk. Can you perhaps give the calculations of a TR monk with the feat raising the unarmed dice to your wind IV and see what you come out with?? What I am seeing here in a nutshell is that wind iv will out preform sun iv if wind's damage dice is higher due to the new equipment, correct? But if im a TR with feat and im equal with that 2d12, im guessing that my sun stance will outdps your wind.

EDIT: Or just do a calculation if a sun stance monk deciced to put on the new gear also, lol i dunno I think by this point I am thoroughly confused.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Oh I still don't understand the math but I think your saying with new robe that raises the unarmed dice???

Yes, it does raise unarmed dice another step.

Perhaps an easier way of looking at is to think of your attacks having 2 less damage behind them, but then in the time that you used to get 18 attacks you now get 19 attacks, complete with all the extra on-hit effects you have like Sneak Attack and Holy damage.

Now it makes more sense seeing that the damage is sort of stacked in wind's favor. That I can see prehaps being true if your giving wind a higher unarmed dice than fire, what if both were at the same unarmed dice?

The only way for Fire to get the same unarmed dice as Wind would be to drop the Red Dragonscale robe in favour of the Garments. That wouldn't make sense from a DPS perspective though, as the garments only add +2 damage on non-crits and +4 on crits, while Red Dragonscale gives +3.5 damage on every hit with an additional 5.5 on criticals (providing the mobs aren't fire immune).

You could exclude the garments from Wind, which would change the value of x that the two become equal, but Wind would still be superior as the garments only give +3.8 damage to Wind.

But I am a double TR monk. Can you perhaps give the calculations of a TR monk with the feat raising the unarmed dice to your wind IV and see what you come out with??

That's already included for both Sun and Wind. Sun is rolling 2d12 from the feat, and Wind is rolling 2d14 from the feat and robe.

EDIT: Or just do a calculation if a sun stance monk deciced to put on the new gear also, lol i dunno I think by this point I and thoroughly confused.

If you have an alternative gear setup you'd like me to check against Wind, I'd be happy to do so. Or the same setups against different fort and/or different handwraps.

[shortdevils]

nvm

[Taimasan]

Ok im still confused so your saying both your wind iv and fire iv have the same strength? And if it was more dps for wind to wear the garments why wouldn't it be more dps for fire to wear the garments?

[AylinIsAwesome]

Ok im still confused so your saying both your wind iv and fire iv have the same strength?

Sort of.

x is just the STR modifier excluding Sun Stance benefits, and for the Sun calculations there's an extra +2 damage to say that they'll do more damage per strike.

Basically, x is just the STR Mod you have before you turn on Sun Stance, which for you is 13.

And if it was more dps for wind to wear the garments why wouldn't it be more dps for fire to wear the garments?

Good question.

I'm making the unstated assumption (my fault here for not saying it) that Red Dragonscale won't stack with the 1d6 Fire damage from Oremi's set (at least the 1d6 fire damage part). If they do in fact stack, then it's better for Wind to wear the red dragonscale too.

[Taimasan]

Well I do agree with you that if a wind iv build and a fire iv build have the same strength then wind iv will probally come ahead due to double strike. But I don't know if i have ever meet a monk who has the same strength in wind iv and the same strength in fire iv

[AylinIsAwesome]

Well I do agree with you that if a wind iv build and a fire iv build have the same strength then wind iv will probally come ahead due to double strike. But I don't know if i have ever meet a monk who has the same strength in wind iv and the same strength in fire iv

I'm not saying that they'd have the same STR in both stances.

In Sun Stance your Monk has 40 STR, and in Wind Stance yours has 36.

So without a stance on, your STR Mod is 13, and Sun Stance brings that up to 13 + 2 = 15. The x I'm using is just the 13, since the +2 I'm accounting for by pretending it's instead +2 base damage that gets added in when you use that stance.

[Taimasan]

So without a stance on, your STR Mod is 13, and Sun Stance brings that up to 13 + 2 = 15. The x I'm using is just the 13, since the +2 I'm accounting for by pretending it's instead +2 base damage that gets added in when you use that stance.

So you saying the mod is 15 but for the math your pretending its 13?

[AylinIsAwesome]

So you saying the mod is 15 but for the math your pretending its 13?

Sun 4 adds +4 STR, or +2 STR Mod.

So for Sun Stance I'm using x + 2, and for Wind just x, where x is the STR Mod you have with Sun Stance off.

[Taimasan]

So what if they both had the save dice for unarmed strikes? Would wind still outperform fire? And is there anyway you can give me the variable's for this to give to someone who does not know about ddo. I want to give it to a math student I know so he can try and explain it to me.

[AylinIsAwesome]

So what if they both had the save dice for unarmed strikes? Would wind still outperform fire?

It would change the value at which Sun and Wind become equal.

I've just done the calculation, and it affected it a lot more than I thought it would, changing the breaking point to 52 STR.

Giving the Wind Monk Red Dragonscale as an alternative gives me two results, based on how it stacks with Oremi's.

Doesn't stack: 42 STR needed
Does stack: -84 STR needed to make Wind equal Sun, with Wind > Sun at all positive values

Additionally, taking away the Epic Red Dragonscale robe from Sun gives the following value of x: -8.4625, or Wind > Sun for all possible values of STR.

Further, taking away all "raid gear" things (Tharne's, Bloodstone, Rings, ToD set bonuses, Epic Claw set, ect.), but leaving Devouts gives a value of x at 40, or 90 STR required. This is of course assuming that Wind would be able to maintain adequate Ki generation, which is impossible. As more on-hit effects are added in though, Wind gets progressively better than Sun.

So my conclusions are:

1. If the Red Dragonscale does not stack with Oremi's, Sun > Wind for U7 when fully geared.
2. If the Red Dragonscale does stack fully with Oremi's, then Wind >>>> Sun when fully geared.
3. The new robe puts Wind > Sun (but just barely) for U8. (Ie, you [Taimasan] would only gain ~2% more DPS by switching to Sun with 36 STR, and assuming you had the gear I listed).
4. If Red Dragon doesn't stack with Oremi's, then every DPS Monk in Wind Stance had better go farm up this item, because it's god-like. (Sun Stance users would get a lot out of this too before Red Dragon, and should use it when fighting all fire immune or resistant mobs).
5. Red Dragonscale favours Sun Stance heavily, as it likely does not stack with Oremi's.
6. The Garments favour Wind Stance heavily, as a Sun Stance user wouldn't want to downgrade to this unless required, and it lets the body slot actually contribute to DPS on a Wind Monk.
7. Undergeared monks are better off using Sun Stance until they acquire the gear needed to get the most out of Wind Stance.

And is there anyway you can give me the variable's for this to give to someone who does not know about ddo. I want to give it to a math student I know so he can try and explain it to me.

Well, the only variable I used was STR Mod (before Stance benefits). Everything else I just stuck at an arbitrary value, ie Fort at 50%, ect.


Both stances have (in my setup):

Main Hand normally procs on every attack roll (1), with offhand procing 80% of the time (.8).

Sneak Attack:
3d6+8 (Ninja Spy 2 + Tharne's)

On-hit Effects:
1d6 Fire damage
2d6 Holy damage
1d6 Pure Good damage
1d6 Shock damage

Base Damage:
+4 damage (Epic Claw)
+2 damage (FB set)
+2 damage (handwraps)
+8 damage (power attack)

Critical Burst Effects:
3d6 Holy Burst damage
1d10 Shocking Burst damage

Critical Damage:
+6 Seeker


Wind Only:

Base:
Rolls 2d14 fist damage

Special:
Main hand procs 10% more often than normal

Sun Only:

Base:
Rolls 2d12+2 fist damage
+2 damage (Shintao set)

Critical Burst Effects:
1d10 Fire (Epic Red Dragon)

Special:
Has Haste, equaling attack speed to Wind.


The basic formula is below. I'm going to use a new variable, F, to represent Fortification. x is still STR Mod, and to compare x between the two you'd have to set F at some number. .95 is used to represent the assumption that you always hit on a 2.

(main hand proc rate + off hand proc rate) * ( (1 - F) * (Sneak Attack damage) * .95 + .95 * (on-hit effects) + .85 * (x + base damage stuff) + (1 - F) * .1 * (x + base damage stuff + critical damage stuff) + F * (x + base damage stuff) + .1 * (critical burst effects stuff))


If F equals 1 (100% Fortification), then Sneak Attack and Critical damage is nullified, with the otherwise critical damage rolls turned into normal damage rolls. If F equals 0 on the other hand, Sneak Attack is rolled 95% of the time, critical damage always happens on 19-20, and the damage used to make up not getting criticals on Fortified mobs goes to 0.

Burst effects always proc on a 19-20, which is why sometimes you can see Maiming damage on undead.


If your friend (or anyone else) spots any mistakes, let me know. I want to get the best DPS I can too.

[Taimasan]

I have to say that I really don't understand all of what your talking bout still but I would have to agree that having a extra dice step would certainly change things. I do think that you are being a little too lenient in your math because everything about it seems to be with perfect conditions, perfect gear setup, with gear that is not even in the game yet and still subject to change. I for one think that wearing the epic scale where I can slot different things brings more to the table besides dps than the garments. Furthermore having a 36 strength in a epic quest without wearing the epic spectral gloves is going to put me at a disadvantage if I want to put power attack on with a 40 strength and land almost all my hits. Ive found that in quest if you can't land the hits then you are not doing alot of dps. I think that while your math is probably right, it contains alot of assumptions I don't believe that are realistic and fair, i.e. always hitting on a 2, sun user not having crane(I never even looked at the Metaru build but I have crane path on my fire path monk with void iv and full ninja spy).