I just pugged a Tempest Spine....

[k1ngp1n]

Well, your post made fun of newbies, yet you didn't mention that you tried to help them in any ways. Ah yes, you did, after being called out.

Rofl. You missed the entire point of this post, didn't you?

[Elixxer]

Here's an approximate transcript of what transpired:
Arcane who'd been leading raid for the most part: "Alright everyone...shield-block the door and I'll firewall them."
***someone opens the door***
Mobs: Ouch...ouch...ouch (still standing in the firewall)
Arcane: THEY GOT THROUGH!
Arcane: ***ding***
Other Arcane: ***ding***
Squishy Rogues: ***ding***
Everyone without Heal spell: ***ding***
Everyone with Heal spell: ***ding***
Me: Just hold tight everyone...I'll come back and get you guys back up and then go get [name redacted to protect the obnoxious]
[Name Redacted] (who happens to be dead in the lava in Fire & Ice): You #*@! all suck!

I really did enjoy this run last night. Someone pulled the leaver for the door that leads to all the named boss's before everyone blocked the door, and when it did open someone ran inside it and let the mobs eat the casters.
As quoted above, everyone starts to die. I started to run and tried to grab some soul stones, but missed because of all the orange DA. I eventually died in the lava before fire and ice when I tried to jump to the island because I would never make it to the door. Never jump when you are slowed by DA.
Thus I watched you solo the mobs for awhile, and then recalled because everyone said we were gonna rerun it.
I get back to full health and you say "Yes, 2 chests are clear and heading to clear out a third now" it was funny, the group leader stopped arguing with people outside and inside the quest and passed the star... and left.
I had to go before we finished, I would have left sometime in the end fight because I don't want an XP hit but all in all I had a blast.

[Nich]

Rofl. You missed the entire point of this post, didn't you?

Could be Enjoy DDO.

[quityourjobs]

Starter raid that lacks a functional map: highway to hilarity.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

From what I've seen, that is the most hit or miss quest in the game. It's a raid, so it's hard, but it's f2p and relatively low level so you get people there with no idea what's going on. Lots of things work great for the early levels and then stop working out so well at about that time.

I agree totally with this, since you're going to have a mix of players, some of whom are the type that actively refuse to ever read anything. Also, there are no in-game maps for the internals, and it's going to be really hard to learn anything being zerged through it. Don't get me wrong, have no issue with zerging. I haven't had really bad experiences with this, since I've always joined pugs with enough people who knew what they were doing, but I don't like this raid for the frustration factor.

I'm not elitist, but while I don't know everything, I like to at least have a clue about what i'm doing RIGHT NOW. Google something, know what the monsters are, and how to beat em, or ask at least. And I'm starting to want to find like minded types. Someone joining, saying they're new to this, what do they need, and Oh, sorry, durr, i forgot to find the questgiver, hook me up with a share? is someone you want. The shareplzthx ppl who don't know anything AND will not listen, is what we're pulling our hair out about.

Also, the much vaunted loot factor? Not so much. Yeah, there's a lot of chests, but it's way long, so you could easily be ransacking xorian or doing a number of other, shorter quests in the time it takes, without all the hassle.

Starter raid that lacks a functional map: highway to hilarity.

/this x47. Seriously?

[Flasharte]

Where is the chains of effective dissemination of game play experience and knowledge? Is there no method by which newer players get to even see experienced players?[/QUOTE]


Pugs. thats where new players learn.

but many of the knowledgeable players stick to themselves. Ive heard some people haven't pugged for months. Not pugging also usually limits guild growth, which is also where you can learn things if you are new. guilds made up of knowledgeable players that is... not the massive invite guilds.

if the vast majority of people who know everything only play with other people who know everything, nothing is learned. If the vast majority of people who know very little about the game only play with others who know as much or less there will also be very little learning.

Also pugs with lfm that say :know the quest, no noobs, be exxperienced, byoh, etc. prohibit the exchange of knowledge.

experience is still the best teacher, but not all experiences are equall.

I think new players would learn a lot more playing with someone who has been playing for three years than with someone who has been playing for three months.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Pugs. thats where new players learn.

but many of the knowledgeable players stick to themselves. Ive heard some people haven't pugged for months. Not pugging also usually limits guild growth, which is also where you can learn things if you are new. guilds made up of knowledgeable players that is... not the massive invite guilds.

if the vast majority of people who know everything only play with other people who know everything, nothing is learned. If the vast majority of people who know very little about the game only play with others who know as much or less there will also be very little learning.

Also pugs with lfm that say :know the quest, no noobs, be exxperienced, byoh, etc. prohibit the exchange of knowledge.

experience is still the best teacher, but not all experiences are equall.

I think new players would learn a lot more playing with someone who has been playing for three years than with someone who has been playing for three months.

Sure, if they WANT to learn. A lot of people don't seem to. If they're the type that actively refuses to listen, they're only going to be a source of frustration.

[breadstick]

99% of the TS runs that I pug (aka all of my TS runs) work out well. Sometimes you might get unlucky and get a bunch of first timers, but usually there are some vets leading the charge.

[Kominalito]

guess i'm lucky...i have had zero PuGs on a failboat. they've been handled for the most part fairly well. we've had a few backpack trinkets along the way, but all in all, i've had good PuGs.

now, Proof is in the Poison, Irestone, and the Phiarlan quests....thats a different story.

[Darkrok]

Starter raid that lacks a functional map: highway to hilarity.

This was honestly a big part of the problem in the quest when we ran it last night. The guy that died took several minutes before he described where his stone was well enough for someone to pick it up and by that time the group had moved on. A functional map would have completely alleviated that problem.

[Wardancer420]

The only prob I really have with TS runs is trying to get all the yokels thru water. If you can do that, its a good run. Other than that its kinda like herding kittens, a chore but rewarding.

[AndyD47]

The quest is indeed a ton of fun. My question on this thread, really, is where is this lack of knowledge perpetuating, and do we do anything about it? I haven't pugged in months, but for some reason yesterday I wanted to go back to one of my old favorites. I offered repeatedly to assist them when it became apparent they were struggling, but I was definitely not pro enough, after all. No, the level 62 guild guy was obviously better... you're only guild level 46.

Where is the chains of effective dissemination of game play experience and knowledge? Is there no method by which newer players get to even see experienced players?

Its the starter raid,most of the things you learn to do in higher level/raid groups you are just starting to pick up in TS itself.

Its DDO's very own catch-22,if you don't know what you need in a raid you might not make it through one long enough to find out.

That said,as long as everybody communicates effectively in there you could be underlevel and poorly equipped and still make it with a minimum of fuss...
So asking if anyone has done this already (as opposed to the almost call out with "who hasn't done this before")
Making sure fire resists and deathward are passed out,and lightning/sonic and FoM on the boss.
Making sure the cleric/bard/FvS has some supplies passed just in case,if they are clearly broke.
If I'm on an arcane I use stoneskin and displacement as incentives,If I see someone who is new doing pretty well i'll show my appreciation with a little something just so they get the idea that listening pays dividends.

Also,running back through it all (wether by choice or a swipe off the side) a couple of times is pretty important to the learning curve.

Just my thoughts on it.

[Catiriona]

The good and bad of this quest is it is both insanely easy to zerg(those of you who remember Moon probably know he had a toon built just to zerg TS) and insanely easy to get lost. That is a very bad combination in any pug. Now granted when I was learning this there was little else in the way of raids and it was decent loot... but I basically got lost alot and was saved alot. Few slowed down to help the lost... I probably would not have been saved if I was not both a cleric and female..lol. That being said I have done many a dungeon crawl through there to teach newer people to have those same people be lost the next time...heck I know people that have been doing that for years and still get lost...lol. Generally some never get it..some will always be lost and when you are pugging your chances of running into people that both get lost and are not self-sufficient mulitplies tenfold. Have not pugged one I was not running in years... may have to sneak into one one of thse days.

All that being said it has always been one of the most fun raids out there... I miss naked NSR cool down TSE between raids. I miss Zeph saving me over and over and still getting the kill count. Hey maybe one of these days it will be epic and we will see some good runs on it again.

[moops]

My favorite Non Guild TSE was back when Level Cap was 10. . .Yes that along ago!

There were no clerics to be had, and 2 bards volunteered to heal the whole thing, but with their awesome CC and Facinate, hardly any healing had to be done. . .It was then that I learned the power of the Bard! There was a ton of great teamwork despite many new people in the group. And even tho the quest was easier then, elite was no joke as Heavy Fort items were rare, and everyone had a 28pt build and a Burst weapon of some kind was KING!

Sheelagh, I miss the Naked TSE runs between the harder raids as well.

As far as new players, the time of day tends to make a difference I find that earlier in the day a lot of younger people play who just do not listen to the leaders at all. . .Maybe a shorter attention span. My favorite is when the leader explains about the runes, tells them not to pick them up, they pick them up anyway, and then take 10 mins to admit that they did

[aradelothion]

is perhaps our hatred and avoidance of pugging coming back to haunt us?

This, I think. I always pug because I'm either guildless or in a guild with RL friends who don't play often, and the groups have been getting worse even up to mid-high levels (even p2p content) because there aren't a lot of vets who want to lend a hand. When I was starting out back when f2p just hit, I remember being taught a thing or two by people who've been in the game for ages. I'm by no means a great player, but I do know I'd be A LOT WORSE if they didn't come along.

[Rasczak]

As far as new players, the time of day tends to make a difference I find that earlier in the day a lot of younger people play who just do not listen to the leaders at all. . .Maybe a shorter attention span. My favorite is when the leader explains about the runes, tells them not to pick them up, they pick them up anyway, and then take 10 mins to admit that they did

Which is why it's wonderful that the runes respawn

[moops]

Which is why it's wonderful that the runes respawn

Yeah. ..but I had 2 elite runs this life, where they did not, it really sucked as the xp pot was running. . .In the one run I think a person was griefing us, but alas we all kept Ddooring and running tot the rune spots and they were not respawning--Most of the runs they did tho. The first run we all dropped, the 2nd run the leader put in a ticket, but I had to go do a raid so I don't know what happened.

It would be nice to know what can keep the runes from respawning tho. . .so that if its some bizarre error it can be avoided.

[ka0t1c1sm]

And if you EVER see a pug for a 'Naked TS run', drop whatever you're doing and join it.

This right here. Naked Tempest's Spine is pure fun at any level.

[Rasczak]

99.9% of new people don't want to learn. They want me to get them the end chest.

I start off with the usual speaches (all vets have these prepared for every quest and raid in the game), it generally gets ignored by everyone because the knowledgable players know what's happening and only want to know who's tanking, who's healing who and who's handing out which buffs, and new players ignore it because they prefer using a raid group to hide in so it looks like they busy.

I can give advice on best weapons to look out for, how to be efficient and which feats are more useful than others but it's pointless. 99.9% of people, want me to lead because then they get a chest. Everythign else, like completing the raid/quest first is peripheral to them.

To all those in the 0.01%, you have my alt names

[TheDearLeader]

I like how we've got so much ado about Tempest here.