Remove WC bonus to Inspire Courage - Opinions?

[breadstick]

I've been pondering the balance between bards recently, and the major issue I've thought about is Inspire courage. IC is the reason why everyone wants a bard in their party. Sure, bards also bring a lot more, but you know it's true.

Anyway, WCs get +1/+2 on spellsingers and virtuosos. Even a level 16 WC will have +1 damage over a pure spellsinger or virtuoso.

I don't know about the rest of you, but to me this seems unfair. I believe that all of the bard PRE's should be able to do the bard's main party trick equally well. The way things are currently makes spellsingers and especially virtuosos much less desirable in groups.

What I propose is for the WC line to add more personal DPS. I'm not imaginative enough to think of actual abilities (maybe full BAB?), so I'll just leave it at that.

Tl;dr: Remove WC bonus to IC, give WC more personal DPS.

Since polls cannot be posted, please indicate (by number) which option you agree with:
1) I am in favour of removing WC bonus to IC in return for more personal DPS (I have a warchanter)
2) I am in favour of removing WC bonus to IC in return for more personal DPS (I do not have a warchanter/have a different PRE bard)
3) I am not in favour of removing WC bonus to IC in return for more personal DPS (I have a warchanter)
4) I am not in favour of removing WC bonus to IC in return for more personal DPS (I do not have a warchanter/have a different PRE bard)

[Nysrock]

/not signed


You are taking a prestige class that by it's very name has dedicated itself to war. And yet another PRE that just sat around singing songs about spells should be able to give you the same courage in battle? Not hardly! I know my fighter wouldn't gain as much courage from somebody that just plays at war.

Maybe we should let WarChanters help a casters DC then too. Or how about letting them give spell points to everyone as it is unfair that a SpellSinger learned THAT trick while he was learning the art of war.

When you make comments like this you need to not only look at this from a balance issue as also a RP issue as D&D is based on that.

[Krag]

As long as WC gets significant boost to his personal DPS I don't mind.

[RequiemVampie]

/not signed.

I have a War Chanter and I like him just the way it is. As it stands, my bard deals good dps as is and has the HP close to some melees.

As previously mentioned, the War Chanter PrE is a dedicated battle-bard. They should get the bonus to IC.

Spell Singers boost casters. Its what they do.

Virtuoso Bards have near unrivaled crowd control over the other bard PrEs, maybe even some or most casters.

[Meowin]

I´m with Nysrock on this one, each prestige class has it´s speciality and the warchanter is about melee combat.

Spellsinger and Virtuoso get their own special trick so let Warchanters keep theirs.

/not signed

[Hardehar]

/notsigned

absolutely and utterly ludicrous. Warchanters add to the DPS of the group, spellsingers and virtuosos have other abilities. I like the ice-cream shop with lots of different flavours, I don't like the ice-cream shop where all the flavours are different colours but all taste of vanilla.

[Nysrock]

/notsigned

absolutely and utterly ludicrous. Warchanters add to the DPS of the group, spellsingers and virtuosos have other abilities. I like the ice-cream shop with lots of different flavours, I don't like the ice-cream shop where all the flavours are different colours but all taste of vanilla.

LOL....+1 for the ice cream reference. The laugh helps these long nights at work.

[FastTaco]

The +1/+2 isnt enough to justify going warchanter, unless your playing epics with high ac mobs.

[breadstick]

/notsigned

absolutely and utterly ludicrous. Warchanters add to the DPS of the group, spellsingers and virtuosos have other abilities. I like the ice-cream shop with lots of different flavours, I don't like the ice-cream shop where all the flavours are different colours but all taste of vanilla.

The way I see it, spellsingers have better PERSONAL spell casting, virtuosos have better PERSONAL songs, yet warchanters have better group songs? Shouldn't there be a melee bard in their somewhere, as opposed to a bard that does the bard's job better than the others.

Your ice-cream reference doesn't really make sense...I am not suggesting to mash all the PRE's into one homogeneous blob, I merely want to alter the flavour of one so the others don't taste so bad relatively.

[Nysrock]

The way I see it, spellsingers have better PERSONAL spell casting, virtuosos have better PERSONAL songs, yet warchanters have better group songs? Shouldn't there be a melee bard in their somewhere, as opposed to a bard that does the bard's job better than the others.

Bard Warchanter I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 4 action points
Spent: 16 action points
Requires One of: Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons, Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Requires All of: Power Attack, Bard Inspired Attack I, Bard Inspired Damage I, Bard Inspired Bravery II
Available to Bard class level 6
Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class. They help all party members with DR and additional bonus to Inspire Courage. Not just themselves.


Bard Spellsinger I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 4 action points
Spent: 16 action points
Requires One of: Spell Focus: Enchantment, Mental Toughness, Maximize Spell, Heighten Spell, Empower Spell, Magical Training, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Requires All of: Bard Energy of Music II, Bard Song Magic II, Bard Lyric of Song I, Improved Concentration II
Available to Bard class level 6
Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant yourself and all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell point costs. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class. They increase the DCs and decrease SP cost to the ENTIRE party. Not just themselves.


Bard Virtuoso I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 4 action points
Spent: 16 action points
Requires One of: Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator, Bard Extra Song IV
Requires All of: Bard Charisma I, Bard Extra Song II, Bard Lingering Song I, Improved Perform II
Available to Bard class level 6
Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and the ability to extend the duration of your beneficial songs by an additional 10%. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class. They give bonuses to the rest of the party for a longer period of time. Not just themselves.

If you look at all the examples you will see that each one has a different skill that is greater to group buffs then the other. Each unique to the other. And all very well balanced.

[breadstick]

/not signed


You are taking a prestige class that by it's very name has dedicated itself to war. And yet another PRE that just sat around singing songs about spells should be able to give you the same courage in battle? Not hardly! I know my fighter wouldn't gain as much courage from somebody that just plays at war.

I interpret WC as battle hardened bards, hence the more personal DPS.

Maybe we should let WarChanters help a casters DC then too. Or how about letting them give spell points to everyone as it is unfair that a SpellSinger learned THAT trick while he was learning the art of war.

I don't see how this is relevant to what I'm suggesting.

When you make comments like this you need to not only look at this from a balance issue as also a RP issue as D&D is based on that.

Never having played D&D I can't really comment, but this isn't D&D. A pen and paper game is never going to transfer perfectly to a video game.

[Nysrock]

They are Bards by nature hence they Inspire Courage with their songs. They are WarChanters which means they chant their songs to inspire others while they fight.

What you are thinking of is not a battle hardened Bard but a Fighter with UMD. Otherwise why else would they just benefit themselves more then the rest of the party? Should a Cleric or a Favored Soul heal themselves more then everyone they party with? Of course not. So why should a bard lose part of his prestige class just to make HIMSELF fight better?

As for never playing PnP D&D, that doesn't matter. You don't have to RP to play this game. But you should at least look at the names of some of the PREs and realize they all mean different things.

Warchanter=Dedicated to the art of war.
Spellsinger=Dedicated to the art of spells.
Virtuoso=Dedicated to the art of CC.

They all get different skills and bonuses. They all mean different things. And they should always be separated by the very act of training for their particular skill set.

[breadstick]

They are Bards by nature hence they Inspire Courage with their songs. They are WarChanters which means they chant their songs to inspire others while they fight.

Don't all bards inspire others?

What you are thinking of is not a battle hardened Bard but a Fighter with UMD. Otherwise why else would they just benefit themselves more then the rest of the party? Should a Cleric or a Favored Soul heal themselves more then everyone they party with? Of course not. So why should a bard lose part of his prestige class just to make HIMSELF fight better?

Fighters with UMD can't give IC, ironskin chant, recklessness, etc etc.

Warchanter=Dedicated to the art of war.

They would still be dedicated to the art of war (more personal DPS), they just wouldn't be able to inspire party members better than their spellsinger and virtuoso counterparts.

[Tirkan]

/not signed.

I have a heavy melee spellsinger build. I don't see why Warchanters should lose one of their buffs - and for some, a primary reason to play it, as their buff allow for deep splashing into a fighter-type class and still be effective at Inspire Courage...even if nothing else.

The only change -I- would like to see is having all of the Pre's regen songs.

My spellsinger burns through songs like mad keeping everyone buffed, the tunes and SP rolling in to those who need it.

[rodallec]

so you dont want the other pre to give spell point cost reduction or +1 to DC's aswell?
why have a pre at all?
/not signed

[Veileira]

/not signed


You are taking a prestige class that by it's very name has dedicated itself to war. And yet another PRE that just sat around singing songs about spells should be able to give you the same courage in battle? Not hardly! I know my fighter wouldn't gain as much courage from somebody that just plays at war.

Maybe we should let WarChanters help a casters DC then too. Or how about letting them give spell points to everyone as it is unfair that a SpellSinger learned THAT trick while he was learning the art of war.

When you make comments like this you need to not only look at this from a balance issue as also a RP issue as D&D is based on that.

Yes the war chanter dedicated itself to war and received a song that reduces incoming damage to the entire party where the spellsinger received a song that helps spells and the virtuoso received more songs per day.

1. I have a war chanter and I don't think it's fair that war chanters get better basic songs than other bards. I think it's overpowered.

[Jaid314]

i'm already completely uninterested in warchanter, even with the added buff. i can't support taking that away, it's the only thing making the warchanter particularly appealing. ironskin chant is not that impressive (plenty of ways to get DR 5), the reckless song is only going to be interesting for a select few people, and the armor/weapon stuff is mostly just a minor addition to the class, not the main feature (though i suppose it's a tiny bit possible that many warchanters are celebrating their freedom from master's touch so that they can fit in merfolk's blessing or something like that, i doubt it)

[Stitch78]

ironskin chant is not that impressive (plenty of ways to get DR 5) [snip]

Really? Because DR5/- is actually not common, especially at levels 6-12, when most bards get the song.

Healing circle is mass cure light which we already get. I like greater magic weapon, and keen edge. I too wish they had not removed 3/4 of all spell options from PnP DnD. Improved invis would be OP in a melee focused game if it had long duration. I believe the old school 3.0 version was minutes (turns or 10 rounds 6 sec each) per level, which is why 3.5 went with displacement.

Love the idea of a Keen buff, so long as it is a level 2 or 3 spell so it would benefit melees prior to when they take IC. If it is a level 4 or 5 spell, it is kind of useless although I suppose it frees up a feat if you self-cast it.

[Jaid314]

Really? Because DR5/- is actually not common, especially at levels 6-12, when most bards get the song.




Love the idea of a Keen buff, so long as it is a level 2 or 3 spell so it would benefit melees prior to when they take IC. If it is a level 4 or 5 spell, it is kind of useless although I suppose it frees up a feat if you self-cast it.

doesn't need to be 5/-, just needs to be 5 (or more) / something the other guy can't break.

so for example, invulnerability? not all that hard to get, available at level 4, useful until about level 10ish. stoneskin? available in scroll form at level 5, in spell form at level 7 or 8. hammerblock, spearblock, axeblock? not all that hard to find. barbarians will have some simply from class levels, warforged can have 4/adamantine innate from enhancements + armor feat, bloodrage symbiont is available at level 7 (albeit with drawbacks and is somewhat rare)... not that hard to get really. you can just find 5 dr on vendor trash. i suppose if you're deliberately comparing people who have crappy gear, you might have something. or if you're comparing people who normally don't bother with defense. i suppose if i knew i was going to be in a static group with a warchanter, i might not bother developing DR from other sources. but i don't think that applies to most people as a general rule.

[Angelus_dead]

Tl;dr: Remove WC bonus to IC, give WC more personal DPS.

It's true that the Bard specialties would be improved if some of their party buffs were replaced with personal effectiveness, but the +2 Inspire Courage is not the problem here. It's not a big deal compared with the total magnitude of Inspire Courage you'll get anyway.

It's actually the tier 2 abilities that would've been better left out: Song of Recklessness and Spellsong Vigor. In both cases, gameplay would be better if the Bard had instead got a self-only buff to give himself either direct melee power or offensive casting.

PS. An additional helpful change for Bards would be to reduce the cost of Inspired Damage to 1 per tier, opening up more flexibility after the obligatory is taken care of.