Pale Master or Archmage?

[Silent-Death]

So Im on my level ten wizard, almost level eleven, and what I did was take Archmage till level eleven to take advantage of the spell points then go Pale Master on level twelve. I already got SF: Necromancy . But now Im having second thoughts. I took the feat SF: Evocation for the temporary(since I planned on becoming PM on level 12) almost unlimited Magic Missiles.

But, It seems like Im gonna miss that 150 sp, and that nice almost-free 90-100 damage from Magic Missiles. So my question is, should I stay Archmage or go on with my plan on becoming Pale Master? Is self-healing really that helpful since in higher levels, the groups always 'needs a healer'. Im the kinda wizard who throws a firewall, let themburn, then move on.

Ill put more info later, thanks in advance!

[Jaid314]

self-healing is great, plus it takes a bit of a burden off the healer (plus it means you don't have an umbilical cord attached to the healer... just go ahead and watch a barbarian try to roam ahead a bit, and see what happens :P )

the immunities will also be quite nice, and while you lose your magic missile attack, you will be gaining necrotic ray, a spell that costs only hit points. hit points that you can replace easily from your death aura spell (which you should keep on all the time). lich form will also grant you intelligence that will gain you back a small amount of SP, should gain you back any DC boosts you got from archmage (and will add to every school, not just 1), and should raise your necromancy DCs further (you'll really come to appreciate that at level 13, when you get finger of death), and will make you a fair bit tougher (courtesy of the constitution boost and hit points when you get hit). alternately, wraith form (which i'm not personally all that impressed with overall, but to each their own) will give you a miss chance that stacks with blur/displacement (well, not truly stacks, since you don't add them together, but you will get both miss chances against most attacks).

is all that worth it? well, that's up to you. archmage has some really strong options with the low-level crowd control SLAs, and the free magic missile isn't a horrible option to have either.

[William_the_Bat]

I'd say put off switching until you are using finger of death a lot and your at-will MMs just aren't cutting it.

At level 12, there's still a lot of content you can burn through with ease on your at-wills before it can get to you...

Later on, the lack of scaling up will skew your results toward finger of death and self-healing while you let them burn in your firewalls.

[jojje_b]

i say it all comes down to what you like, the differences in dc's will be that archmage has 1 more in anything he focuses in (except necromancy, wich is the same) and depending on how much he abuses the archmage enchantments he will have more or less sp than the pale master. while the pale master will be ALOT harder to kill.

myself i play a halfling pale master and i can solo just about anything (vod takes a while though) because i end up getting healed for more than enemies hit me for (lifeshield, concordant opposition, boon of undeath, lich form all give me hp when im hit and with a good shield i get very nice dr) and with concordant opposition/torc they even give me my sp back.

my dc's are around 37 on everything but necro wich is 40 but an archmage could easily get to 40 in any school he focuses in. note that i didnt pick any spell focuses except necromancy

some might argue that a warforged archmage would be even harder to kill because of all the dr and the ability to reconstruct themselves but a pale master would still have the dr and can always switch out of lichform for repairs and then go back in for the price of 100 sp

[seobanio]

I have both a wizard and a healer. On my wizard I'm a warforged, so I get self healing that way, but even for fleshie I would probably go archmage with enchantment spec. I ignored the SLAs that take away sp. (I did try out palemaster before making sure I wanted to go archmage.)

From a healers perspective, it can be very annoying to have palemasters in the party. PM generally is good when things aren't going too badly as the aura keeps you topped up. But when things start to go poorly, a PM is IMMUNE to heals. That is a huge drawback of the PRE/liche form. I know that PM can hit negative energy burst, but the healer is so used to healing everyone usually they will have wasted at least a heal by the time that happens. Also, even though PM could theoretically heal themselves as well as the healer could, in my experience that doesn't happen. Probably because they don't have quicken/rely too much on death aura/or get distracted by everything else that is going on.

Added to that is that the necro focus feats are pretty useless at end game, but more sp is always good. So, I would go archmage.

[bryanmeerkat]

From a healers perspective, it can be very annoying to have palemasters in the party. PM generally is good when things aren't going too badly as the aura keeps you topped up. But when things start to go poorly, a PM is IMMUNE to heals. That is a huge drawback of the PRE/liche form. I know that PM can hit negative energy burst, but the healer is so used to healing everyone usually they will have wasted at least a heal by the time that happens. Also, even though PM could theoretically heal themselves as well as the healer could, in my experience that doesn't happen. Probably because they don't have quicken/rely too much on death aura/or get distracted by everything else that is going on.

So dont play pale master badly and dont play with bad healers ?

[testing1234]

So dont play pale master badly and dont play with bad healers ?

so a pale master is best IF
the party are not bad?
palemaster are not bad in a single quest?
the healer is bad?
the quest is extremly hard?

sure makes PM sound like the "best" choice to me :_ or did i misunderstand you?
i mean who would want a class thats good when ur doing someting actually hard? (by hard i mean for the entire party)

[jojje_b]

so a pale master is best IF
the party are not bad?
palemaster are not bad in a single quest?
the healer is bad?
the quest is extremly hard?

sure makes PM sound like the "best" choice to me :_ or did i misunderstand you?
i mean who would want a class thats good when ur doing someting actually hard? (by hard i mean for the entire party)

i just want to say that i was talking about the endgame when i was making my comparisons. archmages will be doing their jobs as casters better than pale masters in all aspects except necro, wich is only useable in a few quests at that point.

the big benefit for being a pale master is being tough, its hard to describe but imagine having any amount of enemies hitting you for moderate damage and end up healing more than you loose. of course there will be things dealing more damage than you will be able to absorb but it still helps.

screw the healing part, u wont need it most of the time and if the healers cant handle it... well, lets just say i play a healer myself and ive never had an issue

[voodoogroves]

i just want to say that i was talking about the endgame when i was making my comparisons. archmages will be doing their jobs as casters better than pale masters in all aspects except necro, wich is only useable in a few quests at that point.

The math shows this is incorrect, right? We've beaten that horse?

An Archmage who specializes in Enchantment will be better than a Pale Master who does not. Enchantment alone or Enchantment + another, either way.

A Pale Master who also specializes in Enchantment and Necro is equal or ahead on DCs.

the big benefit for being a pale master is being tough, its hard to describe but imagine having any amount of enemies hitting you for moderate damage and end up healing more than you loose. of course there will be things dealing more damage than you will be able to absorb but it still helps.

screw the healing part, u wont need it most of the time and if the healers cant handle it... well, lets just say i play a healer myself and ive never had an issue

Staying power is a big piece of it. At-will, SP-friendly offense is nice too. General DC capabilities. I've only capped a Pale Master but the mid-level archmage-ish ones I mess with are fun too - just different.

[gurgar78]

I don't think people give enough credit to the lichform immunities and to the Palemaster necrotic SLAs.

I went enchantment focused archmage for 3 days. I was chomping at the bit to get back to Palemaster. I find my palemaster infinitely more survivable, with just as much staying power and DCs that are comparable. Death aura + necrotic bolt/blast are nearly as good as magic missile/chain missile spam with the added benefit of making you nearly unkillable unless there are 5+ mobs around you.

It's also extremely nice to run through quests and see constant "Immune" messages pop up over your head as enemy casters try to use CC spells against your party. The only thing a Palemaster-in-form is susceptible to is trip. At least until Turbine makes enemy arcanes load halt undead and enemy clerics use turn. =P

[jojje_b]

The math shows this is incorrect, right? We've beaten that horse?

im not sure what you mean. the archmages get enhantments that can improve the dc's of schools they have focused in with +2. the lich form gives you a +2 int and +1 to necro dc's. this means liches get +1 to all dc's and an aditional +1 to necro. this means archmages can get higher in anything but necro, wich will be same. this is only true if you are in lichform however

An Archmage who specializes in Enchantment will be better than a Pale Master who does not. Enchantment alone or Enchantment + another, either way.

A Pale Master who also specializes in Enchantment and Necro is equal or ahead on DCs.

no, the archmage will have 1 higher dc's on enchantment and the same necro. providing the pale master is in lichform


the pale master "spell like abilites" are indeed nice but the archmages have the exact same abilities, except that those deal force damage (force burst/blast) wich is way better than negative damage. and in not even gonna bother to count up all the other nice spell like abilities the archmages have.

my summary would be that archmages are better at everything except being tough.
if you are a warforged being an archmage with the ability to reconstruct yourself might be a better alternative compared to having to switch in and out of lichform (wich costs 100 sp each time) the few occasions where you will actually need to heal yourself but personally i like being a pale master better

[Jaid314]

the dividing line comes from 2 things.

first of all, a pale master has much less to lose from being a fleshy. this means you can be human, half-elf, or even drow, while sacrificing much less for not being warforged. while you don't *have* to be a warforged archmage, that's what most people bring up when comparing to pale master, because otherwise self-healing is an extremely large gap.

secondly, and more importantly, are yugoloth potions. +2 intelligence, which every wizard wants, in exchange for 50% fortification lost... which the average wizard would be ill-advised to take. oh, you *could* take the fortification hit, but that can be very very deadly. this +2 intelligence is largely considered to be essentially "unavailable" to archmage, mostly because they can't get 200% base fortification. the pale master, on the other hand, can drink one of these potions and still be sitting on 150% fortification. this accounts for +1 DC.

so instead of being 1 point of DC behind the archmage, the pale master is in fact equaling the DC, provided the pale master spends the feats for enchantment focus just like the archmage. if you're going archmage, you should be doing it for either the spell-likes, or the spell points, not because you have any reasonable expectation of your DC being higher.

as to more damage from the archmage force SLAs, you're wrong there too. pale master has a higher bonus to necrotic damage than archmage can ever get even if he fully invests in force damage, plus has built-in necrotic critical enhancements (all at zero additional AP cost beyond the PrE) which the archmage may or may not have... but even if the archmage does, the archmage still can't get the same amount of damage boosted from the force enhancement line. additionally, the pale master comes with built-in higher save DCs on their spell-likes (we've just established that the pale master can get equal DCs above, plus has an extra DC boost in necromancy), which are also not subject to evasion or improved evasion.

now, i can't deny that there are more things that force will work on than necrotic, that may very well be. but as far as max damage, the pale master abilities have you beat easily. they're also better because they cost hit points instead of spell points, which is a pretty major advantage in a class that essentially has an inexpensive regenerating aura.

archmages are "better" at crowd control because they can spam certain spells for dirt-cheap, *not* because they have higher DCs. an enchant/conj archmage can throw inexpensive web, hypnotism, and resistible dance for next-to-no SP cost, and *that* is where their advantage lies... not in higher DCs.

[voodoogroves]

Jojje there are threads and threads where this is debated. End result, like Jaid said, absolute end-game everything the Pale Master can actually come out on top. Reality says that the Archmage and Pale Master will have different "luck" snagging the tomes, raid gear, etc. to make that differentiation stick.

Ultimately, who's ahead in the race matters. Also ultimately while 1 DC is important, it is not as important as the other benefits each PRE brings. If you like to spam the hypno/webs - go nuts with Archmage and either force or reflex-based damage. If you prefer the other route w/ more survivability, insta-kills, etc. go nuts with Pale Master.



"End Game" is also a cliche that is tired, over-used and frankly open to too much interpretation. Grinding raids? Epics? Farming for shroud materials? Speed runs? Solo runs? IQ?

There is no one-size fits all answer. The PREs are actually pleasantly balanced.

[donfilibuster]

But, It seems like Im gonna miss that 150 sp, and that nice almost-free 90-100 damage from Magic Missiles. So my question is, should I stay Archmage or go on with my plan on becoming Pale Master? Is self-healing really that helpful since in higher levels, the groups always 'needs a healer'. Im the kinda wizard who throws a firewall, let themburn, then move on.

(without reading previous posts)

Not really, you wont miss those 150 sp, see the combo of necrotic touch and necrotic bolt is a good way to replace the magic missiles.
By using this bolt you also save more sp from direct damage than the 150 sp you lose.

Now, self healing is not full healing, keep in mind, but is a good thing on a player that makes the life easier for the party healer.
It is also enough to cover the needs of a wizard.

If you skip the pets, you'll have enough action points to take the fire enhancement line and keep using firewall properly.
Whereas on archmage you can possibly take only one such elemental line because it cost pore ap and you possibly need the force line for magic missiles and arcane bolt.

[ddoer]

as to more damage from the archmage force SLAs, you're wrong there too. pale master has a higher bonus to necrotic damage than archmage can ever get even if he fully invests in force damage, plus has built-in necrotic critical enhancements (all at zero additional AP cost beyond the PrE) which the archmage may or may not have... but even if the archmage does, the archmage still can't get the same amount of damage boosted from the force enhancement line. additionally, the pale master comes with built-in higher save DCs on their spell-likes (we've just established that the pale master can get equal DCs above, plus has an extra DC boost in necromancy), which are also not subject to evasion or improved evasion.

I originally think force spec has better potential damage but Jaid314 is right. The following is a break down.

PM3 with the best gear provides

• +120% dmg (+45% dmg from PM3 +75% from Superior Nihil),
• 21% crit chance (+9% PM3 +12% Epic Robe of Shadow),
• 2 crit multiplier (1.5 base + 0.5 from any Major/Superior Void Lore).
  It costs a total of 8 APs. Gears and Superior Nihil pots are easy to obtain.

Full force-spec wiz provides

• +115% dmg (+40% from enhancement +75% from Superior Nihil),
• 18% crit chance (+9% enhancement +9% from Greater Arcane Lore),
• 2.75 crit multiplier (2.25 from enhancement, +0.5 from Rakhir's Sash Set / +0.25 from Greater Arcane Lore)

It costs a total of 22 APs, that is very expensive, but AP also help reconstruct. Most ppl probably won't take the last tier of each enhancement line. Superior Nihil 1 is easy to get Superior Nihil 3+ is not exactly easy to get. So chain missiles may not benefit from the +75%.

PM SLA is 20d6 that is higher than MM and CM. I'm not familiar with Gust of Wind and Cyclonic Blast. Neg dmg is protected by DW and missiles are protected by shield so they are more or less the same in immunity.

The above covers the SLA damage info only. AM and PM both have benefits other than SLA dmg.

[Jaid314]

it is worth noting that the 8 APs for the PM enhancement is, obviously, not only getting you the bonuses there. for example, an archmage will not only need to invest in the force/repair line (which costs 22) to match this, but will also need to actually *buy* the spell-like abilities (costing more AP and SP) to be able to spam them. the pale master, on the other hand, also gains some bonus hit points, the spell-like abilities, and a (rather weak, though not completely useless at-level) summon in addition to their regular one.

gust of wind is not good for damage-dealing (specifically, it deals 0 points of damage no matter how many enhancements you put on it) and cyclonic is ok for essentially-unresistible damage, but otherwise not that great. i doubt anyone will take the line that high anyways, and besides... i think the actual comparison was to the archmage's force blast and burst, not to the evocation spell-like ability line (which is a whole different kettle of fish, since it gets free metamagics. and, for that matter, since it gets metamagics at all! however, at that point you're sacrificing your ability to boost DCs and get cheap spell-likes in other areas, mind you)

[Samiusbot]

Hi my name is Samius Gurobo and I am a pale master.

All the touches + the aura == free damage forever!

A quickened Neg burst beats a reconstruct every time as long as you have then Sp, which you do as you are using free attacks or wail/finger.

The best Pale master piece of gear is free to farm now. Epic robe of night. Get moving!

And welcome to the land of not entirely unlike undead.