DPS pre?

[Krag]

Why can't paladins have a decent DPS prestige? Not a one trick pony. Not an undead-themed jack-of-all-trades.

Just a straight DPS guy who is built to kill stuff. Like Tempest. Like Kensei. Like Berserker.

[Dylvish]

Because they are not Fighters, Barbarians, or Rangers?

Paladins as a class and concept are specialized in an area of enemies (like undead, otherworldly, etc), not in 'gokill'. If they were, they would have gone to that other school, the War College, and would have graduated as Kensai.

[LordSemaj]

Why can't paladins have a decent DPS prestige? Not a one trick pony. Not an undead-themed jack-of-all-trades.

Just a straight DPS guy who is built to kill stuff. Like Tempest. Like Kensei. Like Berserker.

Because paladins are not simple footsoldiers like Tempests, Kensei, or Berserkers. Shining knights who slay evil, about as addicted to it as druids are to trees.

Paladins are also the mounted combat unit of Dungeons and Dragons. Problem: there is no mounted combat in DDO.

So instead we hurt things with Light damage like this is some twisted Pokemon fantasy world.

[Aaxeyu]

I agree. KotC is a very boring PrE.

When mobs keep getting so much HP, they can't leave a melee class behind in DPS.

[Krag]

Because they are not Fighters, Barbarians, or Rangers?

Paladins as a class and concept are specialized in an area of enemies (like undead, otherworldly, etc), not in 'gokill'. If they were, they would have gone to that other school, the War College, and would have graduated as Kensai.

Rangers are the class specialized in fighting specific enemies. It's called Favored Enemy. Paladins fight every kind of evil.

Because paladins are not simple footsoldiers like Tempests, Kensei, or Berserkers. Shining knights who slay evil, about as addicted to it as druids are to trees.

Paladins are also the mounted combat unit of Dungeons and Dragons. Problem: there is no mounted combat in DDO.

So instead we hurt things with Light damage like this is some twisted Pokemon fantasy world.

Paladins could do devastating damage with their lances on a charge. In other words they were DPS class in PnP.

[LordSemaj]

Paladins could do devastating damage with their lances on a charge. In other words they were DPS class in PnP.

There's no such thing as a dps class in D&D, the roles are far more versatile being that it's offline and there's no need to staple wrap each class for mass production or balance. Hence why some classes are stronger than others. Paladins are actually one of the weakest melees in D&D due to having no bonus feats like fighters, no two-weapon bonuses like rangers, and no absurd strength like barbarians. Smite evil a few times per day, that's it. No Divine Sacrifice, no Knight of the Chalice bane damage, just straight sword and board or two-hander. The mount actually made them somewhat viable as damage dealers, yet we're lacking that in DDO. That and the Holy Avenger, which only a paladin can make full use of, and another item that DDO lacks completely.

The lance thing is precisely the point made, paladins are more capable when in their zone than when not. Anti-fear powers, disease curing, holy healing, smiting evil, mounted with a lance, on a summoned celestial mount, surrounded by pledged followers and hirelings, that's how a typical paladin rolls. DDO cuts out the need or usage for many of these, rendering paladins into what you see today... slightly tougher fighters who dps better vs outsiders.

Paladins are specialists. So they will always be specialized in their role, even when dpsing.

[ekniff]

Rangers are the class specialized in fighting specific enemies. It's called Favored Enemy.

IMO, the Favored Enemy mechanic seems more to be that you learn how to fight certain enemies as you progress, and ultimately, you end up understanding most of your enemies so nigh everyone becomes your Favored Enemy.

This is as opposed to a Paladin, who hates Undeads and Evil Outsiders especially. But they don't, well, hate more and more types of mobs.

(because in the same vein, Fighters are specialized at fighting crit-friendly mobs; Monks are specialized at fighting non-crit-friendly mobs, etc.)

[Krag]

There's no such thing as a dps class in D&D, the roles are far more versatile being that it's offline and there's no need to staple wrap each class for mass production or balance. Hence why some classes are stronger than others. Paladins are actually one of the weakest melees in D&D due to having no bonus feats like fighters, no two-weapon bonuses like rangers, and no absurd strength like barbarians. Smite evil a few times per day, that's it. No Divine Sacrifice, no Knight of the Chalice bane damage, just straight sword and board or two-hander. The mount actually made them somewhat viable as damage dealers, yet we're lacking that in DDO. That and the Holy Avenger, which only a paladin can make full use of, and another item that DDO lacks completely.

Melee rangers are the weak fighters in D&D. Paladins with their x7 damage on a charge are more than viable damage-dealers.

The lance thing is precisely the point made, paladins are more capable when in their zone than when not. Anti-fear powers, disease curing, holy healing, smiting evil, mounted with a lance, on a summoned celestial mount, surrounded by pledged followers and hirelings, that's how a typical paladin rolls. DDO cuts out the need or usage for many of these, rendering paladins into what you see today... slightly tougher fighters who dps better vs outsiders.

Indeed. DDO cuts out their damage, their flavor without giving anything in return.
As for the being tougher.... WHAT?! Fighters have hit points. Lots of them. Paladins have thir saves and eva... No, not evasion. Just saves.

Paladins are specialists. So they will always be specialized in their role, even when dpsing.

When your class is only useful in a handful of quest you might call it "specialist" but you are just a one trick pony.

[MartinusWyllt]

There's no such thing as a dps class in D&D, the roles are far more versatile being that it's offline and there's no need to staple wrap each class for mass production or balance. Hence why some classes are stronger than others....

This is probably going too far back to be relevant but the Barbarian and Cavalier in 2nd ed. Unearthed Arcana looked pretty specialized for DPS. Both had explicit restrictions that limited their versatility. A DM would have to actually try to be sure the Cavalier would survive past the first couple of levels because...if played properly by their code they were practically suicidal. (Attack the biggest thing on the field capable of fighting at all times, never quit the field, ensure your enemy knew you were coming, never deny a challenge, etc...) The Barbarian might have been a little easier especially going the Conan route they seemed to be shooting for; workers of magic are generally automatically evil. Trying to have a spellcaster in the party looked kind of cheap (rather like the attempts to integrate a Paladin into a party including anyone evil)...I don't recall what the restriction was on divine magic.

[shortdevils]

A mount would be akward in ddo IMO, for the same reason indent like hezrou's. They may to be big and the screen would seem quite cluttered,. Movement would also be akward , think The Pit, think Coal chamber, think epic chronoscope in the steam tunnels. I think a charge attack without a mount would be better. Maybe even introducing lance as a weapon which would have better charge attack damage than any other weapon but it should probably be slower. Mounts would be usable in some quest but probably against only boss'. Imagine chasing a kobold with a horse .

[Dylvish]

Rangers are the class specialized in fighting specific enemies. It's called Favored Enemy. Paladins fight every kind of evil.



Paladins could do devastating damage with their lances on a charge. In other words they were DPS class in PnP.

Paladins in D&D have 'specialists' that have studied and learned how to more effectively kill a specific class of beings (like undead, or Demons, who take different strategies to kill), similar to the way rangers who spend all their time out in the mountains learn how to, for example fight giants more effectively. Paladins still have other things that help them against all other kinds of evil (capstone, smite, etc), their PRE just makes them excel vs their specific specialty.

You are mistaken with the charge. Paladins could do devastating damage with their lances on a charge. In other words, they were a BURST DAMAGE class in PnP. Even in PnP (if the DM had any clue) you had to take time to turn your horse around, get distance, and charge again. Assuming your lance did not break.
Now fighting from the back of the horse with a broadsword & Shield, and the horse kicking / biting, that would count as dps.

[LordSemaj]

Melee rangers are the weak fighters in D&D. Paladins with their x7 damage on a charge are more than viable damage-dealers.

Melee rangers aren't fighters, they're skirmishers in the same vein as the rogue class. Light armor restricted means they aren't supposed to be taking damage, they are optimized as flanking support for the heavy armor warriors. Dual wielding featless in a game flooded with juicy feats helps them quite a bit, and while they're not fighter calibur, they possess a bit of arcane, a bit of stealth, and favored enemies. Since their alternate specialization is the bow... you should see how they're not exactly the first choice for tanking up close encounters. That said, they still possess greater tools than the paladin (see Tempest prestige class), who as you stated can charge for obscene damage with a lance, but that is again a specialist route in the form of mounted combat, which does not exist in most dungeons and requires the proper setting to be effective. Charging on a mount requires ample amounts of space, that lance isn't going to do a thing in close combat. Also, the paladin would need to devote his feats to mounted combat, while a mounted fighter can do the same with plenty more to focus on lance specializations and power criticals.

Sorry but Paladins are specialists in D&D, which makes them fun to play and great party support (they're walking panaceas). Their advantages greatly diminish when the enemy is NOT using fear, disease, poison, or is non-evil. Make a Purple Dragon Knight fighter specialized in Lances and mounted combat and you'll be asking "What's a paladin?". Additionally, since stat boosting items in PnP are too costly, the paladin is going to be spreading his stat points pretty thin while the fighter has maximum strength and constitution almost by default.

Indeed. DDO cuts out their damage, their flavor without giving anything in return.
As for the being tougher.... WHAT?! Fighters have hit points. Lots of them. Paladins have thir saves and eva... No, not evasion. Just saves.

In D&D, Fighters had no more hitpoints than paladins aside from a predisposition toward Con (Toughness isn't nearly as good a feat choice in PnP). The reason DDO fighters have HP is because of the lack of decent feats and how ridiculously supped up Toughness is as a feat. Paladins had Lay on Hands as well as divine spellcasting. In a game setting where people do NOT have 600+ hps, Cure Wound spells still do a number. Couple that with self-buffs, innate immunities, and saving throws actually MATTERING in PnP, Paladins were tough as nails. The fighters with similar degrees of fortitude were the Dwarven Defenders or similar AC builds, which required devoting sizeable benefits toward defense.

When your class is only useful in a handful of quest you might call it "specialist" but you are just a one trick pony.

Point of Interest: Having EVERYONE in your party with Freedom of Movement... just isn't going to happen in PnP. Yet we can see that in DDO because the clerics/rangers are able to spell spam. DDO cuts out a lot more than flavor, it guts some of the things that made those classes powerful in FAVOR of making them one trick ponies. I'm not the one you should argue with on that, look to the devs, however paladins have always been more specialized warriors... and as I said, a tougher fighter.

[LordSemaj]

Maybe even introducing lance as a weapon which would have better charge attack damage than any other weapon but it should probably be slower.

I'd actually like to see halberds and other polearms. However, Reach weapons would give players room to avoid cleaves and they'd be able to kite mobs like casters. Doubt the devs will go down that path.

You are mistaken with the charge. Paladins could do devastating damage with their lances on a charge. In other words, they were a BURST DAMAGE class in PnP. Even in PnP (if the DM had any clue) you had to take time to turn your horse around, get distance, and charge again. Assuming your lance did not break.
Now fighting from the back of the horse with a broadsword & Shield, and the horse kicking / biting, that would count as dps.

Also the fact that one-time lance charges are outweighed by consistent Great Cleaves and Whirlwind attacks, moves that do NOT suck as badly in normal D&D. Lance combat is mainly for fighting demons, devils, dragons etc... the stuff paladins are already good at killing.

[DrNuegebauer]

Paladins don't need a prestige to be able to do very good DPS.

Here's how you do it:

(1) set up a hotbar as your 'dps hotbar'
- add Divine Might, Divine Favor, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smite

(2) learn how to 'button mash' your way to victory.

Once you get it sorted, you can add up to +11 to base damage every swing and then intermittent +9d6 light damage (every 3 seconds) and +60damage and +2 crit range and multiplier (every 3 seconds, you should have at least 5 and these recharge one every 90 seconds)

Then if it's an evil outsider (hello Amrath) you can tack on an extra +4d6 damage each and every swing.

Oh - and if you are a pure pally, tack on an extra d6 holy damage to evil and 2d6 extra light damage on top of that to outsiders/ undead.


And if that's not enough DPS for ya, then go roll a pure fighter or a barbarian. They'll do a bit more damage against non-evil outsiders, but they can't heal themselves with a Lay on Hands; they don't have the same ridiculous saves or the same immunities.

[maddmatt70]

I concur OP. Hunter of Dead and Knights of the Chalice specialize too much. Half of the bonuses for each class should apply to all evil monsters and the other half to evil outsider and undead. For instance instead of +4 to hit and 4d6 vs. evil outsider for KOTC 3 it should be +2 and 2d6 vs. evil monsters and an additional +2 to hit and 2d6 vs. evil outsider.

[CaptainPurge]

Because paladins are not simple footsoldiers like Tempests, Kensei, or Berserkers. Shining knights who slay evil, about as addicted to it as druids are to trees.

Paladins are also the mounted combat unit of Dungeons and Dragons. Problem: there is no mounted combat in DDO.

So instead we hurt things with Light damage like this is some twisted Pokemon fantasy world.

Cavalier FTMFW

[AylinIsAwesome]

I concur OP. Hunter of Dead and Knights of the Chalice specialize too much. Half of the bonuses for each class should apply to all evil monsters and the other half to evil outsider and undead. For instance instead of +4 to hit and 4d6 vs. evil outsider for KOTC 3 it should be +2 and 2d6 vs. evil monsters and an additional +2 to hit and 2d6 vs. evil outsider.

I like this idea.

[Soleran]

I concur OP. Hunter of Dead and Knights of the Chalice specialize too much. Half of the bonuses for each class should apply to all evil monsters and the other half to evil outsider and undead. For instance instead of +4 to hit and 4d6 vs. evil outsider for KOTC 3 it should be +2 and 2d6 vs. evil monsters and an additional +2 to hit and 2d6 vs. evil outsider.

I like this especially since hunter of the dead only gets ghost touch as a pre ability to assist in killing undead the rest are just saves and boosts to turning.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I like this especially since hunter of the dead only gets ghost touch as a pre ability to assist in killing undead the rest are just saves and boosts to turning.

And healing amp.

[PopeJual]

I like this especially since hunter of the dead only gets ghost touch as a pre ability to assist in killing undead the rest are just saves and boosts to turning.

And healing amp and WF-style immunity to negative levels.