Kensai II or III (heavy picks), advice plz

[Choopak]

What Bracosius said: /agree and hopefull

[Consumer]

Now if the math states GS is better then I guess it is. But are you just throwing out a blanket statement or did you really do the math?

If I post on something I am interested in you can safely assume I've done the maths.

Best be getting some rep for going through needless calcs again.

And here we go:

HO Fighter

Gear (autocrit set to boost picks effectiveness)

Head - Epic Helm of the Red Dragon
Goggles - Tharne's Goggles
Trinket - Epic Bloodstone
Necklace - Shintao Cord
Body - Epic Red Dragonscale Robe
Cloak - Earth Grab 45 HP cloak
Belt - Knost's Belt
Bracers - Epic Bracers of the Claw
Gloves - Epic Gloves of the Claw
Ring - Encrusted Ring
Ring - Kyosho's Ring
Boots - Madstone Boots

Weapon 1 - lit II heavy pick
Weapon 2 - lit II heavy pick


Str

20 base
5 levels
7 item
3 exceptional
4 tome
5 enhancements
8 power surge
2 rage spell
2 madstone
2 yugo
2 guild shrine
= 60 str
= +25 modifier

2 - 17

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
25 str
8 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
2 FB
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
2 mastery
2 fighter specialization
4 specialization
= 70.5 damage
7 alignment
3.5 shocking
3.5 flaming
1 force ritual
12 lightning strike (2% chance of 600 damage)
= 97.5
8 Backstabbing
= 105.5 damage

105.5 * 16 = 1688 damage over 2 - 17


18 - 19

70.5 damage + 8 seeker +4 Kensei = 82.5

82.5 * 4 = 330

7 alignment
3.5 shocking
3.5 flaming
1 force ritual
12 lightning strike (2% chance of 600 damage)
8 Backstabbing
33 burst
16.5 blast
= 414.5 damage

414.5 * 2 = 829 damage over 18 - 19


20

414.5 + 4d6 = 428.5 damage on a 20




Deathnips:

Head - Epic Helm of the Red Dragon
Goggles - Tharne's Goggles
Trinket - Litany of the dead
Necklace - Shintao Cord
Body - Epic Red Dragonscale Robe
Cloak - Earth Grab 45 HP cloak
Belt - Knost's Belt
Bracers - Epic Bracers of the Claw
Gloves - Epic Gloves of the Claw
Ring - Encrusted Ring
Ring - Kyosho's Ring
Boots - Madstone Boots

Weapon 1 - Deathnip
Weapon 2 - Deathnip


2 - 15

3.5 Deathnip
5 weapon modifier
25 str
8 PA
1 litany
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
2 FB
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
2 mastery
2 fighter specialization
4 specialization
= 70.5 damage
3.5 flaming
1 force ritual
= 75
8 Backstabbing
= 83

83 * 14 = 1162 damage from 2 - 15

16 - 20

70.5 damage + 8 seeker + 4 Kensei= 82.5

82.5 * 4 = 330 damage

3.5 flaming
1 force ritual
8 Backstabbing
3d6 maiming = 10.5
16.5 burst
= 369.5

369.5 * 5 = 1847.5 damage over 16 - 20





Totals:

lit II = 1688 + 829 + 428.5= 2945.5 damage / 20 = 147.28 average damage

Nips = 1162 + 1847.5 = 3009.5 damage / 20 = 150.48 average damage


Autocrit

lit II = (414.5 * 18) + 428.5 = 7889.5 / 20 = 394.48 average damage per hit

Nips = 369.5 * 19 = 7029.5 damage / 20 = 351.03 average damage per hit

[Jaid314]

can't help but notice that deathnip is in fact better in non-autocrit situations, though not by much.

[PopeJual]

If I post on something I am interested in you can safely assume I've done the maths.

Best be getting some rep for going through needless calcs again.

+1 for doing the calculation. Your calculation actually shows exactly what I expected. The only (small) complaint that Iwould like to see the lightning strike pulled out of the equation entirely and then added in as its own 2% * 500 * 19 line item on the end.


LitII does more damage to non-DR enemies than MinII, I like seeing that as a comparison for the Deathnips. If you're looking to damage generic enemies, it's LitII or Deathnips or Earthgrab picks. MinII would be better when you're going after the endgame bosses with significant DR.

Your analysis shows that Deathnips are a small amount better than LitII on non-autocrit situations and Deathnips fall short of LitII on Autocrit. This makes sense since it's the Deathnips' crit range that makes them appealing, not because of anything in particular that happens on a crit. The appeal of a broader crit range is dampened a bit for a Kensai III because the Kensai III benefit gives you get a smaller % increase on a broad crit range than on a narrow crit range.

I'll post a followup calculation later today or tomorrow when I get time since I'm interested in seeing what would happen for a Kensai Ftr 12/Bbn 6/Rog 2 that doesn't have all the raid buffs. I don't know off the top of my head whether that would amplify the Deathnips' strengths enough to make them worth using over the LitII. (...and I'll leave out entirely the decision on whether either is/isn't worth acquiring because of the grind involved.)

[Bracosius]

Definite +1 for doing the math, very nice.

If your statement originally would have been Deathnip is slightly better in normal questing, but GS is better in auto-crit situations, I probably wouldn't have asked for the math.

I can certainly see the justification when running epic for Lit2, but outside of epic there are few times that auto-crits will be so common that Deathnip is actually a liability.

With the numbers so close in general questing, I have to then defer to cool factor. Deathnip wins. But I can assure you, I certainly won't be collecting tome pages to get a second knowing how the math turns out.


Again, thanks for the calculations.

[Consumer]

You also have to take into account things like earth grab, freezing ice and trap the soul green steel.

[Choopak]

Since i'm the one who start this whole thing with Deathnip, i feel oblige to also give you a +1 rep for the maths
And i'm also VERY eager to hear from your maths PopeJual about the fig12/barb6/rogue2 option...
One more time: thanks

p.s: nobody have news on Rocksplitter upgrade???

[Jaid314]

Since i'm the one who start this whole thing with Deathnip, i feel oblige to also give you a +1 rep for the maths
And i'm also VERY eager to hear from your maths PopeJual about the fig12/barb6/rogue2 option...
One more time: thanks

p.s: nobody have news on Rocksplitter upgrade???

pretty sure lammania stuff is supposed to stay on the lammania forums. there's plenty of information there, just look for the cauldron of sora kell crafting thread.

[Choopak]

Hey Jaid314, look on the Lammania forums... and nothing!
Seems to be only a couple of items, and of coarse: a khopesh sword (like they need more) but no Rocksplittter or other heavy picks, grrrrr Rocksplitter mention only once, something about a mark...
Anyway look like we're gonna have to wait U9 to see them, if we're lucky...

[Jaid314]

Hey Jaid314, look on the Lammania forums... and nothing!
Seems to be only a couple of items, and of coarse: a khopesh sword (like they need more) but no Rocksplittter or other heavy picks, grrrrr Rocksplitter mention only once, something about a mark...
Anyway look like we're gonna have to wait U9 to see them, if we're lucky...

ok, i'll summarise...

there are 4 items in the current set (handwraps, pick, falchion, and something else, can't remember...) with fusible.
in the new set, there will also be 4 sets with a similar ability, and 8 "marks", each of which is associated with a specific weapon from those 8. you put both weapons, and the correct mark, and you can craft a new combined weapon. the weapon that is consumed will grant some quality or other to the weapon that is not consumed.

the list of new items, and what abilities each can give, are in the lammania forums in that thread... just gotta keep looking

[Choopak]

Did i mention you were good Jaid314??? Thanks man, i'll look again...

[Choopak]

Oki, oki you were right, they were on the forums.. last freaking page!
But the good news: i copy paste it... so here it goes
Crippling Rocksplitter = Rocksplitter +Gnollish War Bow Ⓢ + Mark of Rhesh Turakbar
Maiming Rocksplitter = Rocksplitter + Hooked Blade Ⓢ + Mark of Rhesh Turakbar
Vengeful Rocksplitter = Rocksplitter + Ogrish War Axe Ⓢ + Mark of Rhesh Turakbar
Vampiric Rocksplitter = Rocksplitter + Staff of the Shadow Ⓢ + Mark of Rhesh Turakbar

Crippling (slow enemy movement by 50% on critical hit)
Maiming (extra damage on critical hits: 1d6 for x2, 2d6 for x3, 3d6 for x4 multiplier)
Vengeful (10% chance at Rage cast on wielder each time the wielder is hit)
Vampiric (Lesser Vampirism: heals wielder 1 HP on hit)

The Marks drop in the quest Operation: Siegebreaker as well may show up in the end reward list from the Commander Darmon Kosh for completing the whole Siege of Stormreach Quest Chain.

Hope it help...

p.s: i'm soooooooo getting Maiming

[Choopak]

Hey PopeJual, hows your calculations are going on the Deathnip vs GS on a 12/6/2 split?
Consumer did an awesome job on the Kensai 3 build, but i would really like to compare the two...

[cuddlywuddly]

just to put a spanner in the works, if you are using deathnips go FB barb, l have a duel deathnip barb, endgame crits in excess of 400, if you want a really awsome fun build then go blunt, l have a blunt (warhammers) kensai iii ftr, elemental/holy of stunning in off hand, triple acid (for earth grab) in main and the epic mobs drop quick, l dont care about the maths and damage, blunt are more effective in epic quests with stunning crits.

[Jaid314]

just to put a spanner in the works, if you are using deathnips go FB barb, l have a duel deathnip barb, endgame crits in excess of 400, if you want a really awsome fun build then go blunt, l have a blunt (warhammers) kensai iii ftr, elemental/holy of stunning in off hand, triple acid (for earth grab) in main and the epic mobs drop quick, l dont care about the maths and damage, blunt are more effective in epic quests with stunning crits.

the question then becomes if you would see greater improvement by using a hammer in the offhand with stunning and a heavy pick in the main hand, i would think.

[PopeJual]

Hey PopeJual, hows your calculations are going on the Deathnip vs GS on a 12/6/2 split?
Consumer did an awesome job on the Kensai 3 build, but i would really like to compare the two...

Thanksgiving ate my weekend. It's only fair, though, considering how much I ate on Thanksgiving.

I'll be posting the numbers on Monday.

[RS-Makk]

The +stunning is only needed on one hand right (and it still affects both hands)? Going with a blunt focus/specialization is certainly intriguing.

I have to sat though, I am intrigued by those rocksplitters.

[Choopak]

Hummm interesting combo Cuddly, i believe i saw a dwarven version, called: Anvil and... using pick in main hand, and warhammer in off. I'm sure this will help the stunning capacity of this build, specially with haste boost, you'll be a stunning machine. And beside, hammer still do decent damage (x3 on crit) so could be tempting... numbers, will have to see numbers...
I'm with you (RS-Makk) on Rocksplitter, these are easy to get (bought one for 6k plats) and with U8 comming, you'll be able to upgrade them... Still don't know how the other parts are gonna be "farmable" but i'm sure it'll be WAY easier than Deathnip.
Again, hard choices:
1) full picks spec with feats, enhanc, and weapons (TWF picks)
2) pick/ hammer combo for extra stun and big crit on main hand (you will have to split your feat selection)
3) hammer main hand/ pick off or other hammer (new build entirely)
**** you guys, back to character builder!
Thanks, i love it!

[Nerveya]

From what I've seen, for epics the deathnip/deathnip combo is the best since you don't need DR bypassing. You can stun your own mobs, but you'll likely have an Arcane to Mass hold or a monk/dedicated stunner to stun for you. Earthgrab picks are a nice option if you want to get quick autocrits, but dual deathnips are just sooo good X.x

Have you thought of using Dual Khopeshes w/o Proficiency for non-epic/autocrit situations? It's only 4-7 to-hit difference and you're a fighter so you aren't exactly hurting for to-hit if you're even moderately geared out. In the situations you'd use them (like Elite ToD for example), nothing has enough AC to matter. The loss of kensai enhancements for slashing makes Buffy a sad panda, but I don't know the exact math and you would only use min IIs anyway. Just a thought ^_^ If you feel really shaky about it, put a feat or two into weapon focuses and whatnot. But really, a pure fighter has more than enough to-hit for even elite amrath w/o proficiency or feats to back it up.

[PopeJual]

From what I've seen, for epics the deathnip/deathnip combo is the best since you don't need DR bypassing. You can stun your own mobs, but you'll likely have an Arcane to Mass hold or a monk/dedicated stunner to stun for you. Earthgrab picks are a nice option if you want to get quick autocrits, but dual deathnips are just sooo good X.x

Have you thought of using Dual Khopeshes w/o Proficiency for non-epic/autocrit situations? It's only 4-7 to-hit difference and you're a fighter so you aren't exactly hurting for to-hit if you're even moderately geared out. In the situations you'd use them (like Elite ToD for example), nothing has enough AC to matter. Just a thought ^_^ If you feel really shaky about it, put a feat or two into weapon focuses and whatnot. But really, a pure fighter has more than enough to-hit for even elite amrath w/o proficiency or feats to back it up.

A Keen/IC:Slash Khopesh will have a crit profile of 17-20/x3. That's 8 "points" of critical profile.

A Kensai III Pick gets a +1 to the crit range, so it will have a crit profile of 18-20/x4. That's 9 "points" of critical profile.

There is no reason to take Khopesh on a Heavy Pick Kensai III unless you happen to fall into a pair of Epic Chaosblades. The Kensai III bonus to crit range will bring the Heavy Picks to a better place than a Khopesh for you.

If you go for the Ftr 12/Bbn 6/??? 2 build, then Khopesh will have a better crit profile than a Heavy Pick for things that can't be auto-critted. If I were going for a Ftr 12/Bbn 6/??? 2 build, though, I'd probably just swing a Khopesh 24/7.