And unemotional look at the new cosmetic system.

[IronClan]

Okay to stray off the emotional or passionate appraisals of the new cosmetic kits lets break the topic down to what players want and how the "kits" address this.

First the goal, or primary concern or motivation of the player base, I base my take on players "goals" (motivators) for cosmetics on reading and participating in the "DDO Devs: Pls allow us to change the look of Armour!" thread that finally got their attention:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253849

I feel the following goals/motives are fair and accurate generalizations of what MOST players want customized appearances for.

Goal: have our characters look like we envision them in our imaginations

The new system: fails to address that goal, only allowing us to look like the vision of a limited number of texture artists.

Goal: allow us to look unique from one another (or differentiate what our character's role/flavor is) via appearance.

The new System: fails to address this... in fact it takes a step away from this, as all the skins are predetermined so they are less unique and individualistic than the random generated robes/armor. There will literally be MORE players running around looking the same as random armor gets replaced by everyones favorite from the store.

Goal: have our characters look like they might typically be expected to look. A Paladin in shining armor even if they are wearing a monk outfit (because heavy armor is a bad option for most builds past Giant Hold)

The New system: fails to address that, because the skins are based on the armor type you are currently wearing. Never mind that game mechanics make many paladins into pajama wearers, any "appearance customization" should at least be able to make the character look the business.

Goal: allow us to maintain what our characters look like from early levels to late levels and even when TR'ing. For running around town recognition and flavor purposes. (this game has near zero recognition of other players due in large part to the sameness of everyone's random appearance)

The New System: perhaps partially addresses this if you like the pre-determined skins available and decide to keep buying the same kits as you outgrow your old clothes or armor... However it fails to address this if you wear different types of armor, or switch between robes/outfits or light/medium/heavy armor. So in other words it only addresses that goal for some players.

Goal: allow us to use cool looking random armors and outfits we've found that we already like the looks of, but the effects are not useful or would keep us from wearing much better gear.

The New System: fails again, it doesn't address this in the slightest... If there's a kit that accidentally looks a little like the item you've been keeping in hopes of a LOTRO like costume slot then congrats on the great coincidence.

So based on a fairly unemotional examination this new customization kit system is not very effective at addressing the main concerns of the players. The question is, will Turbine address any of them after they put these kits in, or will they view further (actual) appearance customization as a detriment to store sales and thus sticking everyone with a system that fails on most counts?

[Kominalito]

agree'd. i hate to say i called it, but i totally called it. theres no way of making everyone happy with customization, and in the end, everyone is going to run around with the same outfits. its a waste of time and energy. why not just make small adjustments to the armor that is circulating in the game? maybe that would be a better idea than the devs banging their heads together with logistics.

[shortdevils]

allowing us to change the colors of the store ones would help just a teeny bit more but unless there are a hundred and one different versions that look equally cool (unlikely) this new system wont really help armor diversity.

[Alabore]

agree'd. i hate to say i called it, but i totally called it. theres no way of making everyone happy with customization, and in the end, everyone is going to run around with the same outfits.

^
I must admit I do recall a remark along those lines.
Fair is fair.

[Bladedge]

One major problem is the DDO developers continue to be so secretive about new features and changes. Instead of actually talking about what what they have plan and how they going about it and asking the player base if they are going in the right direction they don't. When do get information its a one or two liner and then wall of secrecy goes back up. In the end the players get disappointed.

Of all the new features and changes they added this year none of them was given a preview till after months of work were done and lock down. Player feedback only happen when it is on Lamannia by then its to late.

[Devonian]

One major problem is the DDO developers continue to be so secretive about new features and changes. Instead of actually talking about what what they have plan and how they going about it and asking the player base if they are going in the right direction they don't. When do get information its a one or two liner and then wall of secrecy goes back up. In the end the players get disappointed.

Of all the new features and changes they added this year none of them was given a preview till after months of work were done and lock down. Player feedback only happen when it is on Lamannia by then its to late.

I'd have to agree here, they don't give us anything to talk about till its too late.

[Pwesiela]

The positive thing I see coming out of this is that it appears to allow for future additions.

When you look at the Leaf 1 and Royal 1, these are the bases for what gets added on top: Leaf 2 and Royal 2. The base remains the same, and the top gets changed. The bright side of all of this is that they can add Leaf 3-X and Royal 3-X with little additional work. Also, they'll be able to add additional bases with the new tops.

Keep in mind that every armor has to be stretched over a frame. Both male and female, for all races.

That's 14 frame adjustments for any single new armor style that they add. This will allow them to add a LOT more, a LOT faster, with little development time.

I'm not a fan of only having 4 options at the moment, and I agree that they fail in many ways, but this is a Large step forward. Changing the color of the styles will be a lot easier than changing the color options for all existent armor styles.

[Alabore]

When you look at the Leaf 1 and Royal 1, these are the bases for what gets added on top: Leaf 2 and Royal 2.

That's 14 frame adjustments for any single new armor style that they add. This will allow them to add a LOT more, a LOT faster, with little development time.

If I may politely chime in on this matter, devs don't really have to create frame adjustments.
It would be more time/cost-effective if they allowed us to freely pick existing meshes, textures and hues, and maybe charge us once for the resulting appearance kit.
Or the service, account-wide.

As they are, appearance kits swap a fixed appearance with another fixed appearance.
The whole point of appearance customisation is removing the fixed part, not switching a fixed quantity with another fixed quantity.

They might work for veteran chars with fixed appearance gear - they are wearing end-game gear they'll be keeping anyway, so applying a one-shot kit isn't a big issue.
For lower level characters they are pointless: you are still stuck with city-gear and quest-gear, just with a store-bought kit instead of randomly generated bits.

[Kominalito]

^
I must admit I do recall a remark along those lines.
Fair is fair.

rep for politeness and great sportsmanship :P

the problem i see with this cosmetic "thing" is that the gear you wear and the gear you are seen in is different. to me this is so shallow and pointless that it doesnt really have a place. if you wear plate mail, you should be seen in plate mail. not a bikini. if you wear mithril chain, you shouldnt be seen in jammies. this is when a halfway coherent idea snowballs into a "lets just do anything to appease these people" situation.

if you really want to make things more diverse, make more versions of the same gear. just small changes. then make THOSE a customizable purchase. if you have an elemental breastplate, maybe with a purchase, you can make the studs a different color with the shoulder plates in steel, or even black. this makes way, way more sense than wasting valuable dev time making brand new designs that are completely for show.

[shagath]

I'm ok with current DT vestments look but I would just like to change colors. Black and red, or black and gold.

[donfilibuster]

I'm ok with current DT vestments look but I would just like to change colors. Black and red, or black and gold.

Agreed, surely thear and vorace aren't the only dragons that can touch your armor, gotta be some travelling argonessen of another color.
Or is it that the green dragons are hiding not from fear of the slayers but of the tailoring fans?

[Alabore]

if you wear plate mail, you should be seen in plate mail. not a bikini. if you wear mithril chain, you shouldnt be seen in jammies. this is when a halfway coherent idea snowballs into a "lets just do anything to appease these people" situation.

The problem here is, DnD does not discriminate between armour types.
You could get your AC - and DR - from physical armour, "force fields", spells and so on.
But the source of AC itself is usually irrelevant; only numbers really matter.
Your character could be as heavily or lightly dressed as you envision it to be: your AC 20 could come from plate and shield, or dex and spells, and it would work the same way.

The paladin/monk other players mentioned could be reasonably pictured wearing small bits of armour, equating to cloth, and still maintain a martial appearance.
In DDO you can't do that: your paladin/monk will have to wear robes or outfits.
You can't have it wear overmeshes from, say, leather armour, over a surcoat texture skin.

Also, the issue of tying armour appearance to armour type is really harmless.
If AC worked differently, and DDO had a strong PvP slant, you'd make a solid point, since outward appearance would prove misleading to other players.
In a PvE game, with a strong solo slant, freedom in choosing appearance is really harmless, and only imposes extra limits to players and developers.

I agree that spending dev time only to disappoint your player base, is a waste.
I've come to accept that Lamannia sometimes is a preview server, sometimes effectively works as a test server.
I am hoping the current appearance kit system is just a test, a promising proof of concept, and not a carved-in-stone preview of things to come.

At any rate, as another player correctly mentioned: it is optional.
I'll keep using sub-par gear as city armour for characters who don't need the extra juice.
I'll put up with "ugly" armour as quest gear for characters who need to squeeze out every last drop of dps, AC or mana.
And maybe buy kits when my chars get end-game level gear and they plan on keeping what they wear.

[moorewr]

Great OP.

The "new sameness" we're threatened with will be alleviated if there are a large number of skins to choose from - dozens, say. Simple color variations of a given model will help. Make your basic ninja pajamas in a bunch of colors, for example (so long as you include black!).

Overall, the LOTRO system is far superior - there, you take an item and tell the system you want that appearance. You can tell that system - which seems easier to code - predates the cash shop.

[Xanshae]

The problem here is, DnD does not discriminate between armour types.
You could get your AC - and DR - from physical armour, "force fields", spells and so on.
But the source of AC itself is usually irrelevant; only numbers really matter.
Your character could be as heavily or lightly dressed as you envision it to be: your AC 20 could come from plate and shield, or dex and spells, and it would work the same way.

The paladin/monk other players mentioned could be reasonably pictured wearing small bits of armour, equating to cloth, and still maintain a martial appearance.
In DDO you can't do that: your paladin/monk will have to wear robes or outfits.
You can't have it wear overmeshes from, say, leather armour, over a surcoat texture skin.

Also, the issue of tying armour appearance to armour type is really harmless.
If AC worked differently, and DDO had a strong PvP slant, you'd make a solid point, since outward appearance would prove misleading to other players.
In a PvE game, with a strong solo slant, freedom in choosing appearance is really harmless, and only imposes extra limits to players and developers.

I agree that spending dev time only to disappoint your player base, is a waste.
I've come to accept that Lamannia sometimes is a preview server, sometimes effectively works as a test server.
I am hoping the current appearance kit system is just a test, a promising proof of concept, and not a carved-in-stone preview of things to come.

At any rate, as another player correctly mentioned: it is optional.
I'll keep using sub-par gear as city armour for characters who don't need the extra juice.
I'll put up with "ugly" armour as quest gear for characters who need to squeeze out every last drop of dps, AC or mana.
And maybe buy kits when my chars get end-game level gear and they plan on keeping what they wear.

Ofc this is not the point in this conversation, but i state it still (and i assume most of ppl reading this understand the AC as a term, but just wanted to clarify this a bit)

AC (or Armor Class as the full name is) in D&D combines two types of defenses really. Parry and Dodge. ( DDO parry/block is not the same i mean here, Block in DDO is just way to stand still, take the hit and hope for the best instead of Parry in order to avoid the enemy to hit you at all) In many other roleplaying games those are different, for example RuneQuest where you can either actively parry with your shield or weapon or dodge the attack with some kind of movement. And in that game both the attack and defence (whether it is dodge or parry) are different dice rolls, enemy can score a hit, but then you can still avoid it by making a successful dodge or parry. In DDO/D&D as we very well know, its only one roll, AC just makes the hitting harder (I understand it is not possible to effectively use those different systems in a videogame like DDO).

Basicly my point is that you can get your AC high no matter what you wear, because in Armor Class description (or game mechanics itself) doesnt state in anyway HOW it is so hard to hit you, are you just so good at parrying or do you move away too quickly.

Instead D&D/DDO have Damage Reduction portion to represent the thickness of armor/skin/maybe some kind of forcefield etc. to determine how much dmg does the attack do to you AFTER the attacking weapon passes your parry/dodge ie. Armor Class

In many ways the defence system in D&D (and DDO ofc) is more complex and simple at the same time than in for example RuneQuest, where you just Parry or Dodge, then your armor, if any, reduces the incoming dmg like DR in D&D/DDO.

D&D and DDO uses Armor class+Damage reduction And Saves as a combination to determine the power of your defenses in somewhat passive method.

Hopefully someone understood even something about this babble, its been long night at work (time is about 5:20 am when i wrote this)

And also sorry to throw in this nonsense in this great cosmetics conversation

[Alabore]

And also sorry to throw in this nonsense in this great cosmetics conversation

Actually, thanks for reminding us the underlying issue with AC/DR: it does not directly express how good your armour is, rather, how good your defences are - or as you said, how good your character is at avoiding/absorbing damage.

This is why armour type and armour appearance are not necessarily tied together.

...

To be fair, DDO could implement something more complex than straight DnD - it wouldn't be the worst or most glaring deviation from 3.5.
GURPS employs a mixed system which features parrying, blocking, dodging, deflecting and absorbing blows.
Number-crunching shouldn't be an issue with a computer game.

Not the point with current thread though.
But if we really want appearance to be tied with effectiveness, maybe devs should make high level gear clearly different from low level stuff.
When I started playing DDO I realised how "mundane" lvl 20 characters looked, especially compared to high level toons from other games.

One point with character customisation is making epic-level characters feel suitably epic.
If you can buy a skin from the store, and it makes both starter rags and epic gear look the same, we risk missing the whole point with customisation.

[reaktorblock]

Usually i am a big roleplaying fan of the 'look as real as is it can get type'
I never turn off my helmet and I am very sad that cloaks have been left our of the game.

These thoughts put aside, I have the strong opinion that cosmetic magic has a place in a world like eberron. People want to look as good as possible and illusion & transmutation magic are the perfect ways to fullfill this wish.

[Grimmsie]

Agreed with the OP, I haven't got a character on Lammania so I can only follow people's posts in the forums and thank them for screenshots of the armour cosmetics available so far...

First day or two of the preview I was really excited about the new armour looks, many nice screenshots, different looks, on different races, everything very cool. But after a few days of viewing the threads I noticed that the armours and their colours in the screenshots keep repeating and it also got to me...what if that's all we're gonna get?

So here's me hoping that the devs will listen to the community and will give us armour cosmetics that will really let us make our characters look the way we want them (imo this isn't a lot to ask..all humans, halfings etc. we all look almost the same...same height, almost the same faces etc...)

I liked the idea that came up a long time before in the suggestions thread - to give us a palette of colours that we can play with on many levels, using brightness/contrast/saturation etc. just like in graphic programs...add customising your own armour looks by adding/moving/removing parts of armour (sashes, belts, shoulder covers etc.) and I'm sure we could get creative here..

I know one may say "chill out, they're working on it" but me/we just want our opinions to count here, I don't wanna be "another brick in the wall"

[Tumarek]

Okay to stray off the emotional or passionate appraisals of the new cosmetic kits lets break the topic down to what players want and how the "kits" address this.

First the goal, or primary concern or motivation of the player base, I base my take on players "goals" (motivators) for cosmetics on reading and participating in the "DDO Devs: Pls allow us to change the look of Armour!" thread that finally got their attention:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253849

I feel the following goals/motives are fair and accurate generalizations of what MOST players want customized appearances for.

Goal: have our characters look like we envision them in our imaginations

The new system: fails to address that goal, only allowing us to look like the vision of a limited number of texture artists.

Are you saying poeple should be able to make their own armor looks... say like in Second life? Get a grip man. This would be a huge development effort

Goal: allow us to look unique from one another (or differentiate what our character's role/flavor is) via appearance.

The new System: fails to address this... in fact it takes a step away from this, as all the skins are predetermined so they are less unique and individualistic than the random generated robes/armor. There will literally be MORE players running around looking the same as random armor gets replaced by everyones favorite from the store.

As far as i recall the devs stated there would be a great number of kits when U8 comes around. Now if they actually deliver on this your argument will be void.

Goal: have our characters look like they might typically be expected to look. A Paladin in shining armor even if they are wearing a monk outfit (because heavy armor is a bad option for most builds past Giant Hold)

The New system: fails to address that, because the skins are based on the armor type you are currently wearing. Never mind that game mechanics make many paladins into pajama wearers, any "appearance customization" should at least be able to make the character look the business.

You cant have everything... either you can have your char look like somebody thinks he should look or like you want him to look. My pallies never had shining armors as i hated the concept of them been lawfull stupid.

Goal: allow us to maintain what our characters look like from early levels to late levels and even when TR'ing. For running around town recognition and flavor purposes. (this game has near zero recognition of other players due in large part to the sameness of everyone's random appearance)

The New System: perhaps partially addresses this if you like the pre-determined skins available and decide to keep buying the same kits as you outgrow your old clothes or armor... However it fails to address this if you wear different types of armor, or switch between robes/outfits or light/medium/heavy armor. So in other words it only addresses that goal for some players.

Ya this actually would be nice.

Goal: allow us to use cool looking random armors and outfits we've found that we already like the looks of, but the effects are not useful or would keep us from wearing much better gear.

The New System: fails again, it doesn't address this in the slightest... If there's a kit that accidentally looks a little like the item you've been keeping in hopes of a LOTRO like costume slot then congrats on the great coincidence.

It is really annyoying that they didnt do this... It has been begged for all over the place but just ignored.

So based on a fairly unemotional examination this new customization kit system is not very effective at addressing the main concerns of the players. The question is, will Turbine address any of them after they put these kits in, or will they view further (actual) appearance customization as a detriment to store sales and thus sticking everyone with a system that fails on most counts?

Give them time to actually finish this update before judging it.

[Dragavon]

I have 2 armours. One that is a good armour, the other is a good looking armour. Why cannot I put the good armour in the armour slot, and the cool looking armour in the cosmetic slot?

I am 100% certain this is what 100% of the playerbase wants, not this DDO shop piece of **** we are about to get offered.

[Pfold]

I have 2 armours. One that is a good armour, the other is a good looking armour. Why cannot I put the good armour in the armour slot, and the cool looking armour in the cosmetic slot?

I am 100% certain this is what 100% of the playerbase wants, not this DDO shop piece of **** we are about to get offered.

Careful, Maybar is watching you.