Bard/Rogue - need help creating a build

[DigitalNikos]

Hey guys, Im returning to DDO after many years off and am looking to design a half-elf bard/rogue. Unfortunately I am no good at figuring out where/when to splash my rogue levels in, in order to maximize the build, and having been gone for years, I'm likely going to screw something up trying to work out a build on my own anyways. I'm hoping someone out there with a knack for this sort of thing can really help me out. On a side note, Im stuck at work and thus have no access to my character builder to even offer out some potential numbers I threw together.
With that said, Im more than open to ideas/suggestions/help!! in any form you guys can offer me.

As for the chararcter I'm trying to make I am primarily designing this character to run with a small group of friends who are playing a Paladin and a Cleric. For this reason, on many maps they're finding they do not have the ability to detect traps, and disable them, find secret doors, and ultimately keeping the party buffed. For this reason, I figured a bard/rogue may be able to fit their needs. Dont get me wrong however, though this is my primary reason for building this character, I'd like him to obviously be "raid" worthy later on in the game, so I don't find myself twiddling my thumbs in marketplace all day.

From reading the boards Ive formulated that bards (unlike pen/paper) need to min/max just like most classes in DDO and cant do everything. For that reason, I'm more than open to suggestions (or pre-made builds) on how/if I can bring this character to life.

My only real reasons for going half-elf would simply be to take advantage of the Fighter Dilletante (thus giving me access to martial weapon prof) and perhaps human versatility as well as the possibility of keeping a fighter splash out of the build entirely (if that seems reasonable at all? - if not, im open to other race ideas.)

I really appreciate any help you guys can provide! Ive read through the basic Diva's bard guide, and scoured the forums but Im finding very little info on any Half-Elf Bard/Rogue builds that would fit the idea im going for.

**Edit** On a side note, I do have 32 pt build capability, drow, etc.

[Stitch78]

There's a similar discussion going on here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=286440

that I think you will find helpful.

[DigitalNikos]

Thanks!

[karl_k0ch]

There are various options to splash Rogue into a Bard build. Warchanters often only take 15 or 16 levels of bard, allowing at least 2 Rogue levels and 2 Fighter/Barb. Even 2 Ranger would work.
There are some sample builds in the Love Guide: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275472.

(The guide also includes lots of useful information for building bards in general.)

In my opinion, you want to have at least the following skills maxed:

Perform
UMD
Disable Device (no class skill for bard)
Search (no class skill for bard)
Spot (if you are a new rogue and/or no one else in the party knows where the traps and the boxes are, also no class skill for bard)

Additionally, the following skills are nice to have:
Balance
Haggle
Open Locks
Jump
Tumble

This results in a need of 6 (+2, with Spot) +1-2 (for the nice-to-have-skills) skill points per level. This way, you cannot afford to dump Int, but you need around 14 Int.
This favors Human since they get another skill point per level for free.

You can't do everything at the same time so you have to focus. I think that Melleeing/Buffing/Handling Traps (no Healing, no CC) on a 16 bard/2 rog/2 fgt build, or 15 bard/3 rog/2 fgt is doable.

TWF + Warchanter is a bit feat-expensive, so humans are a good choice. If you take rogue levels, make sure that the first one is a rogue level so you maximize your skill points. Also, take the last rogue level after the last fighter level, so you can keep up with skill points not invested into during the fighter levels.

Without further thinking about optimization, I'd go Human
15 Str
15 Dex (needs +2 Tome for ITWF)
14 Con
14 Int
8 Wis
12 Cha.

For the levels, taking evasion rather late, but haste at level 9:
1 Rog
2 Fgt
3-9 Brd
10 Fgt
11 Rog
12-20 Brd

Feats (without checking at which level they are avaliable): Power Attack, Toughness, WF: Slash, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC: Slash, Extend, IC: Slash, Khopesh. If you are interested in such a build, I will try to fleshen it out a bit.

[DigitalNikos]

I certainly am and would love your help!

[Gorbadoc]

TWF + Warchanter is a bit feat-expensive, so humans are a good choice. If you take rogue levels, make sure that the first one is a rogue level so you maximize your skill points.

For the levels, taking evasion rather late, but haste at level 9:
1 Rog
2 Fgt
3-9 Brd
10 Fgt
11 Rog
12-20 Brd

Virtuoso is another good option. You get enough songs that your song-based CC will be as functional as anyone's, and you save yourself from having to take Weapon Focus.

I encourage Hide and Move Silently, basically because I think they're a lot of fun. That, and because stealthy Fascinate is freaking amazing.

Bards are the sometimes-exception to the rogue-at-level-1 rule. You're probably right in this case, just by virtue of how many non-bard skills you've listed, but when I designed my evasion bard, I discovered that I would actually came out behind by taking a rogue level first. Had I started rogue, I would have had to slough points into skills I didn't want. And, of course, the game won't allow you to cross-class Perform until you have a bard level, or it didn't at that time (I'm hoping they have changed or will change that, since half elves with bard dilettante can use Perform).

Level 10 or 11 is the perfect time for Evasion; it's about then that it starts actually mattering. Before then, an additional use of bardic music + additional bard spells are WAY more useful at each level.

[karl_k0ch]

This is a first idea what one could do. Note that instead of Spot, one could also max out Hide and Move Silently. The extra points in Open Locks can also be reallocated to Balance, Haggle or anything else. Also on this charakter you have far too many skill points at level 1.

Any comments on this build are appreciated and it is by no means a final version. Maybe it is something the OP can start to work with.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 210
Spell Points: 450 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

                  Starting            Ending          
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats        
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)        
Strength             15                 20            
Dexterity            15                 17            
Constitution         14                 14            
Intelligence         14                 14            
Wisdom                8                  8            
Charisma             12                 12            

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                     7
Bluff                 5                     5
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             1                     1
Disable Device        6                    25
Haggle                5                     6
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  6                     7
Intimidate            1                     1
Jump                  5                    10
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         6                     7
Open Lock             6                    14
Perform               n/a                  24
Repair                2                     2
Search                6                    25
Spot                  3                    22
Swim                  2                     5
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      5                    24

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Focusing Chant


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (2): Blur


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (2): Heroism


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Good Hope


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+3)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (3): Displacement


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Neutralize Poison
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (5): Shadow Walk


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Grease
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Spell (6): Heroes Feast
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds

[DigitalNikos]

Sweet! Thanks a ton for the build layout. on a side note, could you provide any sort of Enhancement layout as well? I actually built almost an identical build to this last night prior to seeing this so I could give it a shot. (the only difference I can see is that I took Extend before TWF) - aside from that I took Focusing chant instead of cure light wounds, but thats really not a big deal (since i can always just switch it). My only question now, is what I should grab to maximize this builds "versatility" in terms of enhancements.

also I noticed DD stops at 25 at lvl 20. is that enough to disable all traps when other buffs are tacked on?

[karl_k0ch]

Acually, going into dual-wield mode before level 9 might not the best idea since you get a malus to your attack bonus and you only have a 40% chance to proc off-hand attacks. Going THF (maybe with a carnifex) might better results because you can afford to switch on PA sometimes. So taking Empower before TWF is totally viable. And actually, at level 3, you should be able to wand-heal anyway. Focusing Chant, on the other hand is a really nice stacking boost to your skills. So your idea looks like the better option.

In order to boost your Search and Disable Skills, I recommend some switchable gear: a + X Int Item and level-appropriate +skills items (with competence bonus, +15 at level 13 iirc). Additionally, you have more means to buff your skills: Heroism/Good Hope/Greater Heroism and Focusing Chant.

The following guide is old, but good nevertheless:
Is my (insert rogue skill) high enough?


Regarding Enhancements:
This build should get Warchanter I at level 8 and Warchanter II at level 17.

You should use the Human Adaptability to even out odd stats, preferably Str and Con.

Toughness is always good.

The Human Versatility will also provide a nice option to boost your skills when disabling.
The prereqs of the Warchanter II PrEinclude the useful boost to +Attack and +Damage of the Inspire Courage song. I recommend picking up tier 3 of those.

Also without much SP and no Healing-focused feats, you can do decent healing with a wand - this justifies taking the Wand & Scroll mastery line.

Lingering songs will your songs make last longer, which is nice at a base time of at most 4 minutes.

From the rogue enhancements, the following are noteworthy:
Rogue Haste Boost I provides a 20-boost to your attack speed which is really nice when fighting bosses.
Rogue Sneak attack Training adds +3 damage to your sneak attacks, which you will always deliver, unless you have the aggro of the mob you are attacking.

If you have spare points, +Skills to DD and Search and +SP will help your overall performance.