Tomes shouldn't self-destruct

[Memnir]

The DDO player in me sees the point in this, and kinda agrees.
The PnP player in me sees this as an aberration of the rules, and kinda disagrees.


I'm conflicted - but more inclined to agree with the PnP player in me. I'd not complain if this was enacted, but I do think we need to hew closer to the PnP game then stray farther away.

If this change were to happen, I'd suggest that the min-level on the BtC Perma-Tome be doubled. Since it's power and functionality would be getting a boost (not vanishing upon use), then there should be a heavier requirement for it's usage as well.

[biggin]

DDO is about hard choices sometimes, losing your tomes benefit is one of them. I understand some may think that more would pay for a TR if that were so, but who's to say they aren't buying those +2 Supreme tomes for every life? I understand the benefits, but I like it that when people TR they know they are having to give up maybe +3 in 4 or 5 abilities to do so.

Now a mechanic I would maybe get behind would be something of this sort. If you wanted you could keep one +3 to whatever ability after a TR, but it would exclude you from eating another tome for that entire life. Again, I like the hard choices.

[Kabaon]

Oh I see, your saying that you don't want that already read/eaten tome to go to waste when you TR and the Inherent bonus dissapears not that the tome disaapears from your inventory when you TR.

Completionist is a bit rediculous anyway, just eat your tome :P, surely you can get another.

[GBantaR]

The using up of the book is straight from pnp. They were always a one time use. Doubt that it will change

PnP didn't have TRing. Different scenarios deserve different handlings.

[Boromirs]

TR to 36 points AND THEN start eating +3/+4 tomes. If they are found in chests at random, I don't believe they are bound (so you can save them) if they are end reward they are bound...so don't do too many completions until your maximum TR. (unless you're doing completionist...but few and far between are doing that...)

[Tirkan]

Yes, PnP -does- have True Reincarnation - there's a couple different modes of it, mostly Druid Spells or going through rituals to rebuild yourself, such as the process to become an Elan or a necropolitan, to name a couple.

The thing is, as written in DDO, there's no reason to have tomes carry over. You are literally starting over, with only vague memories of your past life/lives, with a completely new body.

I wouldn't mind if they were made to carry over, but I also don't mind if it stayed the same as it is now.

[Cendaer]

IMO, a True Reincarnation should be considered the true reset of a character. As it stands now, you do get an extra 4-8 build points to distribute at creation when you undergo a True Reincarnation. Not enough to make up for having used three or more different tomes, but it certainly gives a true reincarnate a considerable bonus.

Considering that a character does become more "powerful" with each reincarnation, I have to wonder if it might be a bit overpowered to allow these BTC & BTA tomes to remain in your inventory for future re-use after a True Reincarnation. After all, isn't it now a bit easier for a reincarnated character to complete content in their quest for these +3 & +4 tomes, since they now have bonus build points and one or more past life feats?

If the devs were to implement this sort of functionality, why not just apply the BTC or BTA tome automatically at the appropriate level (as it functions now for other forms of reincarnation)? If it were to be implemented, I'd rather it just be done automatically, so I can reclaim that inventory slot being taken up by the tome itself.

Also if this were to be implemented, I have to agree with Memnir, that the devs would have to consider raising the min-level on the tomes in question. There would likely have to be a heavier requirement for it's usage, after applying such a bonus to their functionality.

[rimble]

The thing is, as written in DDO, there's no reason to have tomes carry over. You are literally starting over, with only vague memories of your past life/lives, with a completely new body.

I wouldn't mind if they were made to carry over, but I also don't mind if it stayed the same as it is now.

The real reason is that it's just never all that nice to take away hard earned raid loot. It's as simple as that to me. I'm willing to toss out continuity over that one basic gameplay rule. I see it as no different than trashing my Greensteel, or ToD rings, or whatever, when I TR. Because of that, I also don't follow the above ideas regarding doubling the min-levels.

Following that logic, go ahead and strip my +1 and +2 tomes, but leave me my +3 and +4 tomes (either auto-applied or BtC so I can reread them as I relevel).

Continuing forward, that begs the question, what to do if +3 and +4 tomes ever become non-Raid items? Meh, I'll worry about it then...

[bryanmeerkat]

TR to 36 points AND THEN start eating +3/+4 tomes. If they are found in chests at random, I don't believe they are bound (so you can save them) if they are end reward they are bound...so don't do too many completions until your maximum TR. (unless you're doing completionist...but few and far between are doing that...)

Well everyone knows how to not lose the tomes , thats not what is being discussed

[hermespan]

Why on earth would you eat a +3/+4 on a character you plan to TR?
Why not limit yourself to +2 tomes until you are on your final TR?

I could see having this conversation just after TR was added to game, but now?

I even limit consumption of +2 tomes to STR and CON on melee characters who still need to TR, dex too on a TWF. A little extra dps for a few months isn't worth the expense. If it is, then you've decided what you are willing to trade off on. Don't ask to change the game because you have post-snack Tome remorse.

My characters aren't gimped because I ate a +2 instead of a +3 or +4. Bank your ubertomes until final TR.

LR/GR is good for fixing your build and re-feating after game updates. You don't lose your tomes here.

/not signed

Plan better.

[Wren666]

/signed because I'm facing the same dilemma and would love them to last across True Reincarnations..

BUT! It's not gonna happen. because that could severely decrease the value of Tomes in the DDO Store, and might even make certain TR chains pretty overpowered. In the long run, Turbine would be shooting themselves in the foot.


unless they left in-game Tome drops as-is and updated the Store Tomes to last through multiple lives.

[Phidius]

But then I'd have to let Puggers roll on +3 tomes that I've already consumed, instead of stockpiling them in my bank "just in case".

Seriously, though, bound +2/3/4 tomes are considered raid loot, and they should follow a TR to their next life, the same as any other. IMHO.

[dkyle]

Why on earth would you eat a +3/+4 on a character you plan to TR?

Because someone might change their mind about TRing? Or a Completionist thought they were done, but the Druid comes out? Or a new race comes out? If I wouldn't be losing two +3 tomes and a +4 tome, I might TR my Bard HOrc. Now, I'm locked in to Human.

It sucks to have to choose between actually using the rarest and most valuable endgame loot, and being able to use one of the main endgame options.

I could see having this conversation just after TR was added to game, but now?

Why not? Perhaps it takes some time playing with a system to understand its faults.

[Krag]

/signed

One of the most needed changes to improve TR system and make it more attractive.

[Slowe]

The real reason is that it's just never all that nice to take away hard earned raid loot. It's as simple as that to me. I'm willing to toss out continuity over that one basic gameplay rule. I see it as no different than trashing my Greensteel, or ToD rings, or whatever, when I TR. Because of that, I also don't follow the above ideas regarding doubling the min-levels.

Following that logic, go ahead and strip my +1 and +2 tomes, but leave me my +3 and +4 tomes (either auto-applied or BtC so I can reread them as I relevel).

Continuing forward, that begs the question, what to do if +3 and +4 tomes ever become non-Raid items? Meh, I'll worry about it then...

This is precisely why I started this thread. I suggested the simplest solution I could think of, in hopes of it coming to fruition - as such I don't really care if it's done like this or through keeping the bonuses - the main idea is to make all the raid loot follow a consistent set of rules. BtC Tomes are currently the only raid loot which stands out in that they don't persist in any way through TRing, and I see it no different than losing a piece of Greensteel, in fact it's even worse as they're so hard to come by.

[eonfreon]

Why on earth would you eat a +3/+4 on a character you plan to TR?
Why not limit yourself to +2 tomes until you are on your final TR?

Plan better.

Funny.
Some of us have characters from before TR was even a concept.

Kind of hard to plan for something that didn't exist.

To me it doesn't really matter either way. It's not a game-breaker either way. But it is pretty silly to tell people not to do something when the option didn't always exist.

[Bilger]

Why on earth would you eat a +3/+4 on a character you plan to TR?
Why not limit yourself to +2 tomes until you are on your final TR?

I could see having this conversation just after TR was added to game, but now?

I even limit consumption of +2 tomes to STR and CON on melee characters who still need to TR, dex too on a TWF. A little extra dps for a few months isn't worth the expense. If it is, then you've decided what you are willing to trade off on. Don't ask to change the game because you have post-snack Tome remorse.

My characters aren't gimped because I ate a +2 instead of a +3 or +4. Bank your ubertomes until final TR.

LR/GR is good for fixing your build and re-feating after game updates. You don't lose your tomes here.

/not signed

Plan better.

What ya say makes sense. BUT like me have a character that has used almost a full set of +3 tomes before tr was avaialable.

In a case like that it would be viable but like Mem said I am split atm because the PNP player says no the DDO player in me says yes.

Like ya said shouldn't eat those +3 or +4 till done if do thats your fault.

I am not sure where stand just because I would love to tr one of mine but isn't worth the tome loss atm. Maybe a store item you could buy to preserve a read tome on a character.

What saying is a item that checks what tomes ya have and stores it before a TR. Make it expensive so if have multiple tough choices will need to be made if really want to keep that tome. Just and Idea.

[Dylvish]

The using up of the book is straight from pnp. They were always a one time use. Doubt that it will change

Did they have TR in pnp? I did not play much Ebberon, but I dont remember true rezzing being in the paper game.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Well hopefully they will realise that they will sell more Hearts if people dont lose their tomes when they TR and add this function in .

The main obstacle though is people who have already burnt their tomes will kick up a a Huge Massive Fuss

Some truth to both your points here.

I think the initial point from the OP that they "shouldn't self destruct" was off base. However, other people have made some good points on the fun/play side. Maybe they should work on TR more like they do on LR/GR and reapply as you level.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The DDO player in me sees the point in this, and kinda agrees.
The PnP player in me sees this as an aberration of the rules, and kinda disagrees.


I'm conflicted - but more inclined to agree with the PnP player in me. I'd not complain if this was enacted, but I do think we need to hew closer to the PnP game then stray farther away.

If this change were to happen, I'd suggest that the min-level on the BtC Perma-Tome be doubled. Since it's power and functionality would be getting a boost (not vanishing upon use), then there should be a heavier requirement for it's usage as well.

Yeah, that's kind of the conflict I was in as well.

And forget BtC, all tomes should have their ML increased.