caster dps cleric, fvs, wiz, sorc?

[selutha]

Been asking questions about builds, reading threads about diffrent spells but there are a few things that still elude me:

How does the caster dps compare between wiz/cleric?

I am currently playing a wizard, only lv 7 atm. I am enjoying he quite a bit, but firewall does not really live up to the hype to me. (compared to the forums) I have heard the some arguement about the wizard vs sorc, but i really enjoy the versitality on the wizard compared to the sorc.

A sorc has much more sp, gets 2x sp from items, has less feats, but does that amount of sp really matter later on? what about the sp potions? are they rare/hard to get ahold of?

I started a cleric and build atm is high wis/con/cha, 18/16/14 if i remember right. I also enjoy this i see most people ether standing and healing... not really for me and I teamed with one cleric that was buffing, healing, and meleeing. I have not teamed with anyone who was using the cleric as a caster dps, but have seen a few builds for this too. Mostly I read about blade barrier, I am assuming thats what "bb" is.

If I remember right fvs have more sp, 1 less feat, but are usually build for melee + heals and not caster + heals. Is that due to the limited spell slots? What other major diffrence is there between a cleric and fvs. Turning undead? I read that there are some abilities that use your turns, are they used often and how or do they factor in more of a caster dps roll?

Back to the main question of divine vs arcane dps:

How do they compare later on? I was thinking that I have not seen a caster dps on a cleric due to the early stage and low sp or is it that their casting dps is poor and that is why there are so many melee clerics? battle clerics - is that the build that is all about melee dps + heals.

Is the Arcane that much better? arcane dps/cc but mainly cc and end lv?

Can you point out specific spells that I could look at to compare? Seems a spell you get at lv 7, firewall, should not be compared to a spell you get at level 11, blade barrier?


Please for give the wiz/sorc statements and questions just don't think I can get my questions across w/o explaining what my limited understanding is and I think that both could be answer in a single thread.

- Thanks for your time.

[Arlathen]

I'll allow others to contribute specific thoughts and math-related answers, but the primary hinderance in party/raid based situations is that a Divine Class is expected/required to Cure/Heal, thus the 'Caster' DPS dwindles significantly.

In undead area's this is not so much of a problem, especially as a Radiant Servant.

That said, I use a variety of spells offensivly on my all-comer cleric, but its situation dependant on what I do. I don't have the simple 'Drop a FW and let it burn' option.

[painindaguild]

u've been reading the wrong forums, noone here ever talked about casters as dps my friend.

[Fejj]

Either Class can solo the game, and dominate at all levels (if played properly)

As said before, its when you join a group, as a cleric you are expected to heal. If you can do that while laying down the hurt, that's great, however those situations will be rare, you'll never get to "dump" your spell point pool spamming your best spells, you CAN .... but shouldn't.

A sorc IS made for DPS. End of story. The capstone get you even more DPS!!, So for pure nukage, I'd say sorc. The massive spell point pool lets you unleash like a monster at end boss fights!!!!

Wizard is all about expertise, surgical strikes, and superior DC's make you better at CC later in the game.

These are just generalizations and I should note, in ddo you can do amazing things, and play your characters with many different styles.

As a side thought, if wall of fire is not impressive, get a superior combustion III clicky, Maximize it, and then come back here and say its unimpressive. But yes, a base value, un-enhanced fire wall is meh ... did you max out your fire damage enhancements??? Fire Wall really shines when you gather up as many mobs as possible and drop one down. Burning 20 enemies, with one cast it priceless.

[azrael4h]

Either Class can solo the game, and dominate at all levels (if played properly)

As said before, its when you join a group, as a cleric you are expected to heal. If you can do that while laying down the hurt, that's great, however those situations will be rare, you'll never get to "dump" your spell point pool spamming your best spells, you CAN .... but shouldn't.

A sorc IS made for DPS. End of story. The capstone get you even more DPS!!, So for pure nukage, I'd say sorc. The massive spell point pool lets you unleash like a monster at end boss fights!!!!

Wizard is all about expertise, surgical strikes, and superior DC's make you better at CC later in the game.

These are just generalizations and I should note, in ddo you can do amazing things, and play your characters with many different styles.

As a side thought, if wall of fire is not impressive, get a superior combustion III clicky, Maximize it, and then come back here and say its unimpressive. But yes, a base value, un-enhanced fire wall is meh ... did you max out your fire damage enhancements??? Fire Wall really shines when you gather up as many mobs as possible and drop one down. Burning 20 enemies, with one cast it priceless.

Superior Inferno IV clickie for 75%, or Superior Combustion/Potency IV for passive +50%. Otherwise agree. Firewall, at level 7, with no items, enhancements, or buffs, won't seem like much. Nor will Fireball, or any other offensive spell you may have under similar lack of gear/building for it.

Divines don't really get a decent damage spell until they hit level 6 spells; before that it's rather uninspiring (though I love Flamestrike). Blade Barrier is the game changer; I found out I could clear areas faster if I go one way, and the rest of my guild goes another. And my cleric is an undergeared Elf. Human or Half-Elf would be more powerful, more survivable, and more versatile.

[darkforest]

To OP: you can form a cleric only group to play as offensive caster. There are many hidden clerics out there dodging healbot baby-sitting duties. They and the battle-clerics would be happy to join you.

As said before, its when you join a group, as a cleric you are expected to heal. If you can do that while laying down the hurt, that's great, however those situations will be rare, you'll never get to "dump" your spell point pool spamming your best spells, you CAN .... but shouldn't.

I would hope people woundn't perpetuate the clerics must be healbot edict.

A sorc IS made for DPS. End of story. The capstone get you even more DPS!!, So for pure nukage, I'd say sorc. The massive spell point pool lets you unleash like a monster at end boss fights!!!!

No sorc should play as reconstruct/repair bot especially since the capstone ubers repair!

[Kmnh]

Arcane casters shine because of their defensive abilities. As a sorcerer, I can keep dislpacement, stoneskin, resists, protection, fire/cold shieldd, nightshield and haste up at all times. I have a crowd control spell that bypasses saves, and one that bypasses SR. I have dimension door as a "get out of jail free" card. I can UMD heal and raise scrolls, and I have some nice burst dps options.

Divines have the best "damage over time" spell in the game: Blade Barrier. Favored souls have the "wings" effect for mobility and can UMD ddoor scrolls easily.

Use crowd control on dangerous mobs, keep yourself alive and let the area spells do the work for you. Don't worry too much about dps, you'll spend more time running around than fighting mobs.

Oh, and arcanes do better burst dps, because they can quickly spam multiple spells, while divines have to wait for the cooldown on their limited options.

[selutha]

Superior Inferno IV clickie for 75%, or Superior Combustion/Potency IV for passive +50%. Otherwise agree. Firewall, at level 7, with no items, enhancements, or buffs, won't seem like much. Nor will Fireball, or any other offensive spell you may have under similar lack of gear/building for it.

Divines don't really get a decent damage spell until they hit level 6 spells; before that it's rather uninspiring (though I love Flamestrike). Blade Barrier is the game changer; I found out I could clear areas faster if I go one way, and the rest of my guild goes another. And my cleric is an undergeared Elf. Human or Half-Elf would be more powerful, more survivable, and more versatile.

Sorry for taking so long to respond to everyone's posts... That said:

I had a very short time to play today before work and ran a quest in delera's graveyard, dead girl, I found a inferno III clickie finally, cant afford any higher or have not see many on the AH lately. I pulled levers and ran, after I got "Harried"? (yellow indicator saying that if i stop i die ) dropped a fire wall and watched as i ran around and things died. Ok i admit it it was very nice, i have metas heightened/max/extend. I wish I had empowered but i chose an envoke spec, for Archmage and picked up more sp and free magic missle. Might have been a mistake but i find often I am out of sp all the time and i dont cast much DD due to low sp. Most expensive is buffing a team at start, some told me i was buffing everyone alittle more than I really needed to but all appriciated the buffs. I am still learning what resists are needed for what quests and personally believe that a team of melee dps w/ haste will far out dps anything i could do with the sp in casting.

Learned stoneskin today and thats really nice but cant afford to cast it much due to cost of mats. current buff for myself is (extend on) resist(specific if i know the quest all if I dont)/blur/ER/shield(try to have a wand of this)/false life/haste/dispacement(before any boss fight)/night shield/ I know I am forgetting something on the bars.... but it takes alarge portion of my sp. I then take off power VII ? think it is worth 75 sp. put on spell penentration mace/combustion dagger clickie. Max dd if thats all i have to do in team during boss fight, try to hold/cc anything else. Tell me where i can improve if you see a problem.

currently looking for an efficy? item to use at start during buffing to decrease the amount of sp I am blowing at the begining.

How do firewall and BB compare to each other?

Darkforest -

To OP: you can form a cleric only group to play as offensive caster. There are many hidden clerics out there dodging healbot baby-sitting duties. They and the battle-clerics would be happy to join you.

Thanks, I was starting to think I was barking up the wrong tree. I will always do more than healbot, played a healer in most mmo and hate just healing.

u've been reading the wrong forums, noone here ever talked about casters as dps my friend.

Perhaps, but if the forums say I can't dps, then the forums are wrong!!! I do understand that there are times in the game where you must fill your class specific roll, but hope that is not what a clearic has to do ALL the time. Just trying to figure out if what I want to do is possible before I start on a fruitless venture.

A sorc IS made for DPS. End of story. The capstone get you even more DPS!!, So for pure nukage, I'd say sorc. The massive spell point pool lets you unleash like a monster at end boss fights!!!!

Does that mean that FVS are the dps version of a cleric? I appriciate your generalizations, can you give me a generalization of a FVS?


-Thanks for the info and help

[Cartheron]

First and very importnat thing - you need superior inferno IV clickie, not III to power up firewall.

Now, the problem with divine caster dps is simple - divine enchantment damage lines dont support their best damage spells (with exception of undead killing, divines,and particulary RS are great here) and trying to kill stuff with divine direct damage spells is rather sp-expensive proces. With 1 exception, blade barrier. Its a great spell, but requires movement of the target - it deals damage when mobs enter and leaves are of the spell. This means that great crowd control spells divine caster can deliver decrease his damage output, making mobs stationary. Additionaly since melee in groups tend to run ahead and grab agro, its hard to kite mobs through BB if you are in pug.

Second issue is that those zerging melees expect that you will keep them up and alive, because they are taking alot of damage - little to no protection (usable AC is rather rare finding in end game) and they have to stay in melee range to deal their damage. This takes alot of your time and resources. Im not saying that its impossible to deal damage with divine spells, its just hard to achieve.

Arcane casters on the other hand have full enchantments lines for almost all worthwile damage spells. They have persistent aoe, fw and hopefully ice storm in U8 that are not interfering with their crowd control spells. They have spells that bypass saving throws and scales damage well with levels. With only few exceptions, noone realy expects arcane to be a healer, so they can play with their sp as they wish.

Now, about firewall damage. Its true that it doesnt look great in first moment. At lev 7 fully powered fw (superior inferno IV, full enchantments) deals about 30dmg/2sec. About 60 if undead or maximized, about 120 if both. So, lets use 60/2sec wariant, its 30 dps. Nice geared melee with outdps this easily. But now, gather 20 mobs. You are dealing 600dps now. Its nice even for end game melee and impossible to achieve at lev 7. Problem is, you have to be able to survive beating from 20 mobs. Is it possible? Sure. Defensive spells, constant movement or shield blocking with some nice tower shield works wonders, even easier if you are WF and can easily self heal. Just get as many hp as possible, they help alot.

Obviosly, most of your melees wont be happy that you just aggroed 20+mobs. Many groups will just die because of this. Red alert is very painful for melee, and much less painful for casters. So, if you are in group that picks mobs in small packs and deal with them, keep them buffed and happily pike till end. If they like adrenaline, show them true arcane power

In end game, its still true, but outdpsing entire party with fw is either impossible because mobs are immune or higly resistant to fire, or you just cant aggro enough mobs - end game melee can get for example 500dps, you will have fw ticking for 150, so 75dps. To outdps 4 melees, you need 27 mobs. Quite alot. Maybe ice storm will change equation...

Highest possible damage output comes from insta kill spells, where arcanes have big advantage thanks to their aoe instakill having much shorter cooldown than divine counterpart.

To end my lenghty post - if you want caster dps, I would advice you rolling arcane (wizard or sorc, doesnt really matters), get best damage enchantments and items you can get, remember about hp, dont overbuff, dont waste your sp on things melees will anihilate before you will even target your spell, remember that beside damage dealing you can do other things too. And most important thing - have fun doing this

[flynnjsw]

As a cleric/FvS you have another option that people aren't mentioning. Since you are self-healing it is always possible for YOU to zerg ahead and kite them all through blade barriers. Let the party keep up with YOU, not the other way around.

[Noctus]

u've been reading the wrong forums, noone here ever talked about casters as dps my friend.

This.



Divines are CC, buff and burst, not DPS.

You can kite a bit through BB, but that doesnt work well with the melees in your group, so its only a good solooption.

[Cartheron]

As a cleric/FvS you have another option that people aren't mentioning. Since you are self-healing it is always possible for YOU to zerg ahead and kite them all through blade barriers. Let the party keep up with YOU, not the other way around.

Sure thing you can. But why bother with bringing party in the first place then?

[Chette]

I, personally, love devine casters. I would rather play 10 devine casters than a single arcane casters (though I do have an arcane, and one of my devines used to be arcane). They are both extremely powerful, and they both have their pros and cons. It really comes down to which you prefer playing, so try them both and go from there.

As a devine caster you main spell will of course be blade barrier. The advantage to BB is that it is untyped damage. That means it tears up everything. There are a few enemies in the game that have a high reflex save and evasion, but relatively few. The disadvantage to BB is that if you can't kill things in a single hit, you have to kite them through it, unlike firewall which deals damage as long as the enemy is inside. Another disadvantage is that you can only cast it on yourself, you can't target an enemy. Learn to work with BBs, get the timing right and learn to kite, and you'll have a blast.

A word of caution though, as most people have noted, other people will EXPECT you to heal them. Don't let them push you around. Run with people who are self-sufficient and show them what you can do. If you can solo a quest why the heck should they expect you to wait for them and heal them while they kill things at half the speed you could? I do some healing on my offensive specced devines, particularly in raids, but in quests I hit the ground running, gathering things for BBs, and letting people know if they want heals they need to keep up and not kite things away from my blades.

However, that same drawback of being expected to heal is also a benefit at times. It's an easy button, if you don't have a lot of time, are distracted, and just want to get a raid completion. Join a raid as a healer, let them do all the work while you read a book and press mass-heal