Quicken Vs Emp. Healing Advice

[AltheaSteelrain]

Common Knowledge says, if I plan to melee and heal I should take Quicken.

However, I find myself w/ Jump Spell active from casual to epic jumping in and out of combat to heal/rebuff and w/ maximize spell active, I heal on an average of 130 hp for 50 SP non-crit cure critical wounds spell. Yes I do have healing amp on myself so I heal myself for higher values.

But I always encounter people saying I should aim to heal for higher values, but while I do understand where this is coming from, I feel as if the "overhealing" is both a SP sink and overrated especially in PUG groups with HP averaging from 200 up to the uber 600's.

So I am confused, even more after reading the new U8 item sets for archers that promotes vorpal strikes over critical strikes, I feel as if being a sub-par "ranger" bard that uses ranged attacks during manyshot, the Imp. Crit: Ranged feat should be replaced for a better feat to complement the group's survivability. I figure it is time then to upgrade my healing capabilities through either a faster, non interrupt-able spell (Quicken Spell) and/or a more powerful heal (Empower Healing ).

So simply put, since I am already mobile in fighting in close quarters combat (to flank opponents to get more +hit and reduce incoming damage), the quicken spell is useless but getting empower healing when I already heal for 1/3 hp of an average player on both casual to epic quests, I feel this is a mana sink feat that will mostly be turned off.

So in your experience, does over-healing really pays for itself or is it really a mandatory feat to take when you plan to backup heal? Would quicken spell improve my decent spot healing strategy of jumping in and out of combat w/ jump spell active? Or does this tactic of mobility in combat a deterrent to the group's overall DPS/Damaged Received?

Thank You

Discuss.

PS: I'm wearing my DR 50 Junts/casual forum mantle on.

PPS: Hi Junts XD

[BoBoDaClown]

Sorry, I could be confused over what you are asking.

Personally I would grab maximise - even without quicken you could 'main' heal a lot of content.

I wouldn't bother with quicken until you have something worth quickening - i.e. decent heals. (OID is nice quickened - but I'm not sure I'd spend the feat for this one spell).

So, if you only have 1 feat, I'd grab maximise (or Emp heal.). Two feats = quicken as well.

I couldn't imagine serious healing duties without at least one healing meta.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Sorry, I could be confused over what you are asking.

Personally I would grab maximise - even without quicken you could 'main' heal a lot of content.

I wouldn't bother with quicken until you have something worth quickening - i.e. decent heals. (OID is nice quickened - but I'm not sure I'd spend the feat for this one spell).

So, if you only have 1 feat, I'd grab maximise (or Emp heal.). Two feats = quicken as well.

I couldn't imagine serious healing duties without at least one healing meta.

No no, I think its how I worded my query.

Yes, I do have maximize feat, what I am trying to ask is if I were to replace my Imp. Crit: Ranged feat for another healing metamagic, which of the two will be more optimal, the Quicken or the Emp. Heal?

Because right now, I do not see any issues healing during combat from casual to epic content because I am not a main tank and I always have jump spell active for additional mobility to reduce incoming damage and position myself for +hit through flanking bonuses especially on epics, where every hit is a plus .

If this combat style is a valid strategy for spot healing, then I see no need for quicken spell, however taking Emp. Heal would most likely end up being turned off because on most PUG groups, 130ish HP is more than enough and I do not like overhealing; I want to use my SP on displace/haste instead and reserve my healing for myself or backup healing.

[Aashrym]

Is this for your bard12/ranger6/fighter2 build?

What content are you planning on healing, because I have concerns over your SP pool if you are taking more metas?

[Tirkan]

Empower Heal is more SP efficient than Maximize is.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Is this for your bard12/ranger6/fighter2 build?

What content are you planning on healing, because I have concerns over your SP pool if you are taking more metas?

Yes.

I am currently sitting at 874 SP, without SP greensteels and tomes. I am also a Spellsinger II, since I like crits and would prefer real casters to do the CC for my Picks

And we both share the same concern. I plan to backup heal on all difficulties, hence the difficulty in deciding w/c metamagic feat would be optimal to complement this role.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Empower Heal is more SP efficient than Maximize is.

Unfortunately its not a prerequisite feat for Spellsinger I and II

[Celestialbeast]

Quicken is great... If you're in the front lines or needing a heal when harried. Then again I have all three feats on my WF FvS and even at level 15 I never turn Quicken off. Red DA on a Coal BYOH with people joining halfway through the quest is fun. Quicken saved me more than once.. like at 3 HP's because of stupid Harried.

That said if you're not going to be getting hit on take Emp healing. Leave EMp on and turn Max off unless you're trying to heal that crazy barb or uber player with 600 hp's.


Edit: If you do plan on healing and being in melee range Quicken is a life saver.


However other opinions may differ.

[BoBoDaClown]

I'm not sure Emp Heal is actually more efficient on MCMW, your staple.

Personally I would grab quicken.

That means you could be confident of being a main healer in most content - with a limited sp pool it might cost a few more resources, but you'll be fine. It means you'll be that much more flexible.

Emp Heal + Maximise is probably a little much on the mana. I have both, but I have more SP and have dedicated myself to healing, and I'm still not absolutely convinced of the need for Empower Heal. I might switch it out.

To sum up - if I were you I'd take a maximise and quicken combo, so I could fill a healing slot.

[Tirkan]

Personally, I don't feel that Improved Crit: ranged is very worthwhile, esp. on a bow based build that isn't an AA or Kensai...the extra crit range is nice but not necessary, and doesn't add all that much to your DPS.

Quicken may or may not be worth it...I don't think it would be, given a bards fairly limited spell point pool, and that you're not trying to get Heal/Mass Heal to go off, either.

On mine, which is strangely similar save that I don't have the TWF feats(THF), I'm planning on Emp. Heal and Maximize to leverage my limited Spell points as much as possible.

Anyone squishy should be used to keeping themselves up, and the heavier HP sacks should either respect your capabilities or go buy a nannybot.

I'm not sure Emp Heal is actually more efficient on MCMW, your staple.

Empower Heal reaches 1:1 efficiency with third level spells.
Maximise reaches 1:1 efficiency with fourth level spells.

Mass Cure Moderate Wounds is a 6th level spell, costing 35 SP.
Empowering it increases its healing capacity by 50%, so two Empowered MCMW heals roughly the same amount as three non-empowered MCMW. Two MCMW, Emp Heal, costs 90 SP. Three non-metaed MCMW costs 105.

1 max'd MCMW is 60 SP, vs 2 MCMW at 70 SP.

In direct Comparison, 3 Max'd MCMW is roughly equivalent to 6 normal ones, and costs 180 SP. 4 Empowered MCMW costs 180 SP.

In other news, it appears that for 6th level is the break even point on efficiency between Max/Emp Heal. Never actually run the numbers for that before. Thanks for encouraging me to do so.

Emp. Heal is More efficient for 5th level spells, though. :P

[AltheaSteelrain]

Personally, I don't feel that Improved Crit: ranged is very worthwhile, esp. on a bow based build that isn't an AA or Kensai...the extra crit range is nice but not necessary, and doesn't add all that much to your DPS.

Quicken may or may not be worth it...I don't think it would be, given a bards fairly limited spell point pool, and that you're not trying to get Heal/Mass Heal to go off, either.

On mine, which is strangely similar save that I don't have the TWF feats(THF), I'm planning on Emp. Heal and Maximize to leverage my limited Spell points as much as possible.

Anyone squishy should be used to keeping themselves up, and the heavier HP sacks should either respect your capabilities or go buy a nannybot.

I'm a bard AA, but yes, I also share your belief about Imp. Crit: Ranged feat, even more so come U8 and my current playstyle of Shoot w/ manyshot melee when cooldown method.

But both Metamagics cost 10 more sp while active right? So I figure its just a choice between faster healing versus overhealing...

[AltheaSteelrain]

I'm not sure Emp Heal is actually more efficient on MCMW, your staple.

Personally I would grab quicken.

That means you could be confident of being a main healer in most content - with a limited sp pool it might cost a few more resources, but you'll be fine. It means you'll be that much more flexible.

Emp Heal + Maximise is probably a little much on the mana. I have both, but I have more SP and have dedicated myself to healing, and I'm still not absolutely convinced of the need for Empower Heal. I might switch it out.

To sum up - if I were you I'd take a maximise and quicken combo, so I could fill a healing slot.

True, even more so when I consider to make a con/opp greensteel it would signal the need to get hit on purpose... :P

[Aashrym]

The build doesn't have MCMW or MCLW with only 12 bard levels.

At level 12 CSW is more SP efficient than CCW too. We're talking toggling those 2 spells plus items. I'm not sure I would take quicken in this case and empower might be a requirement to hit any real numbers.

With the limited caster level and lack of mass healing spells it's going to be tough to play healer in a lot of content. And running single target healing with 2 meta's is a hefty expense.

I would consider this more of a self healing build. The SP are not too bad for an archer build and some SP regen, but it will be tough.

[AltheaSteelrain]

The build doesn't have MCMW or MCLW with only 12 bard levels.

At level 12 CSW is more SP efficient than CCW too. We're talking toggling those 2 spells plus items. I'm not sure I would take quicken in this case and empower might be a requirement to hit any real numbers.

With the limited caster level and lack of mass healing spells it's going to be tough to play healer in a lot of content. And running single target healing with 2 meta's is a hefty expense.

I would consider this more of a self healing build. The SP are not too bad for an archer build and some SP regen, but it will be tough.

True, but I'm not exactly gonna advertise my bard as a healing bard, though I can pretty much fill the role cycling CSW, CCW and no fail heal scrolls on 6 man groups. I did solo heal once on Epic Last Stand, though it was expensive but we got two wizards a monk and two barbs so its mostly a beatfest with all the CC properly landing and everyone doing their job I probably got lucky on the PUG composition back there.

I just figure since I'm a bard, therefore I am responsible for group DPS. W/c is why I want to squeeze in a little healing especially in 6 man groups where every slot count and "healing bards" are rarer than "bards" to fill up this role.

A dead person is 0 DPS right? and bards don't like 0 DPS :P

[BoBoDaClown]

Sorry, I didn't realise this was a deep splash. That changes things - I was viewing it from the perspective of being able to tweak it into a significant healer.

In that case, I wouldn't bother much beyond self sufficiency. Probably one meta, no quicken. However, I don't have experience playing such deep splashes.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Sorry, I didn't realise this was a deep splash. That changes things - I was viewing it from the perspective of being able to tweak it into a significant healer.

In that case, I wouldn't bother much beyond self sufficiency. Probably one meta, no quicken. However, I don't have experience playing such deep splashes.

No no actually your opinions among all the rest of you had me decide to go quicken maximize instead.

[Aashrym]

I think you'll be hitting a wall with the spell points and no mass versions of the healing.

I recommend you stick with maximize and superior ardor IV clickies, wands and scrolls. Taking maximize to qualify for spellsinger might be taxing enough. You should be able to spot heal if needed doing that.

The deep splash is pretty hard on the healing potential. If you do decide to take another meta then empower healing over quicken. You will need to grind out some more SP to keep both up for long.

Hopefully it works out for you.

[AltheaSteelrain]

I think you'll be hitting a wall with the spell points and no mass versions of the healing.

I recommend you stick with maximize and superior ardor IV clickies, wands and scrolls. Taking maximize to qualify for spellsinger might be taxing enough. You should be able to spot heal if needed doing that.

The deep splash is pretty hard on the healing potential. If you do decide to take another meta then empower healing over quicken. You will need to grind out some more SP to keep both up for long.

Hopefully it works out for you.

Well there's always siberys dragonshards (oh the grind!!~) if I find quicken/maximize cmbo wanting.

And thanks BTW for reminding me to buy those ardor pots.. I always forget /facepalm

[BoBoDaClown]

And thanks BTW for reminding me to buy those ardor pots.. I always forget /facepalm

Not pots, clickies. They give you three minutes of healing goodness - 75%.

[Aashrym]

Well there's always siberys dragonshards (oh the grind!!~) if I find quicken/maximize cmbo wanting.

And thanks BTW for reminding me to buy those ardor pots.. I always forget /facepalm

The reason I'm saying empower healing spell over quicken is because of the play style you mentioned. Facing a needed heal on a 600 hp+ characters with CSW and CCW in the content you want isn't going to put you in so much of the over healing variety.


Bigger numbers while you cycle thru targets isn't so much to keep ahead of the timers in this case as the damage the party is taking. It's the single target cycling that will slow you down and bigger numbers will help more than quicken IMO.


And you aren't getting a hp/sp spent advantage with quicken over empower heal; it's just the opposite. You would get more hp/sp with empower heal on instead of quicken.


There really is a huge difference to +12 levels and +20 levels adding to the healing and single target is where you fall behind. In a 6 man group with only 2-3 in melee and you should be able to keep up.


I still expect a lot of content you will not be able to heal through, but if the goal is to be decent enough for a short period of time and recharge SP from SSII inbetween you can contribute to healing.



Yes, definitely superior ardor clickies. Half dozenish when you can get them. +75% @ no SP increase is good. And heal scrolls, and reconstruct scrolls. I used to use a lot of reconstruct scrolls and still use more than I use heal scrolls. A lot of WF are set up to help themselves out, but not all of them.








On a side note and off topic, couple of weeks ago a rogue I new (F2P) wanted to do a favor run for the 3 droam quests. He hadn't done them before. I had a 17th level bard who hadn't done them yet either, so I wasn't even on a lvl 20 character. I'm a subscriber and opened them all on elite.


2 Clerics join for it. Lvl16 and Lvl20. I'm thinking we have 2 lvl 20 characters and alot of healing so cakewalk.


Running framework we just sat there for a while, while the rogue and I cheered the pink hat army vs the non pink hat army. This was after the clerics kept getting separated and dying.


The optional troll in eyes of stone. We all walked in there and both clerics were one-shotted. I'm not used to a lvl20 cleric who can be one-shotted in a lvl12 elite quest. I popped of a MCMW followed by greater shout and glitterdust for some quick damage and and grabbing aggro, mass suggestion and a CCW on myself again because I was taking damage with the aggro.


Rogue is a 20th assassin. He runs around and knocks of the archers while I play with the troll then comes back to finish it off. Rogue kindly raises them even tho I'm tempted to carry them to the next shrine.


I could run those quests on elite pretty easily with lvl 16 or 17 bard. It goes much faster with the assassin for the DPS he adds. The morale of the story tho, is that any healer sucks with 0 hp.