For a friend. . .

[Mithran]

A coworker and Facebook Friend asked for a good starter build for Cleric, so here it is:

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Nuhealbot 
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 1757 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 16                   16
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         13                 13                   14
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               17                 22                   26
Charisma              8                  8                    8

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance              -1                 10                   10
Bluff                -1                 -1                   -1
Concentration         1                  2                    2
Diplomacy            -1                 -1                   -1
Disable Device       n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                 -1                   -1
Heal                  3                 14                   16
Hide                 -1                 -1                   -1
Intimidate           -1                 -1                   -1
Jump                  5                  7                    7
Listen                3                  8                    8
Move Silently        -1                 -1                   -1
Open Lock            n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                 -1                   -1
Search               -1                 -1                   -1
Spot                  3                  8                    8
Swim                  3                  3                    3
Tumble                1                  4                    4
Use Magic Device     n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Heal (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Jump (+0.5)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I

[TitoJ]

Shouldn't you be giving it to them then? I already have a cleric!

[flynnjsw]

Would you mind a bit of input on this build?

[biggin]

Edited: I need to be less of a smart***.

[Mithran]

It's as the name indicates, a healbot build. He is a longtime WoW veteran where he preferred dps builds and wanted to try a change from his usual role. I haven't played 28-point builds since Drow were released, so it's hard for me, but I think this one will be flexible.

[flynnjsw]

Well the only things I would suggest would be to drop a point in Str, put it in Con, and drop tumble replacing it with concentration. I know you gave him Quicken early, but he will run out of SP much faster trying to use quicken as opposed to having a good concetration.

[ToKu]

That is a horrible build... for any cleric. Threw this one togeather on the fly, would prob change a few things myself this isnt a pure healbot it has some offensive casting ability built into it as well.

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Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 1652 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 20

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             12                 12                   12
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         14                 14                   15
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               18                 23                   26
Charisma             10                 10                   12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance              -1                  8                    8
Bluff                 0                  1                    1
Concentration         6                 25                   25
Diplomacy             0                  1                    1
Disable Device       n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                  1                    1
Heal                  4                  8                   10
Hide                 -1                 -1                   -1
Intimidate            0                  1                    1
Jump                  1                  1                    1
Listen                4                  8                    8
Move Silently        -1                 -1                   -1
Open Lock            n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                 -1                   -1
Search               -1                 -1                   -1
Spot                  4                  8                    8
Swim                  1                  1                    1
Tumble                1                  1                    1
Use Magic Device      n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV

At level 20 or whenever mental toughness is no longer needed he can use his free feat swap to pick up spell penetration or any other feat he wants.

[TitoJ]

That is a horrible build... for any cleric. Threw this one togeather on the fly, would prob change a few things myself this isnt a pure healbot it has some offensive casting ability built into it as well.

I find it funny how awful my cleric build is, how I tell people how awful my cleric build is. How they still want me to heal them, and we complete and never look back.

Why do making a few changes in other peoples builds just so you can call theirs horrible give some people a hard on? I dunno.

Know what gets me going? Knowing you know my build sucks...and you still want me to heal for you lol.

[Sirea]

Yeah, there's really no reason to start off with all that strength and at less than max wisdom as a healing build. And 14 CON is pretty much the generally accepted minimum for 95% of builds.

I wouldn't pidgeonhole your friend into thinking that all a cleric is for is healing. I always recommend a cleric have some offensive casting abilities as well. I don't really think you can call this build "flexible".

@Toku: An offensive caster with no spell pen feats? Tsk tsk... Even at lower levels it can be useful. I don't think either of my divine casters have Mental Toughness feats and they do just fine.

[ToKu]

I find it funny how awful my cleric build is, how I tell people how awful my cleric build is. How they still want me to heal them, and we complete and never look back.

Why do making a few changes in other peoples builds just so you can call theirs horrible give some people a hard on? I dunno.

Know what gets me going? Knowing you know my build sucks...and you still want me to heal for you lol.

Naw I identify bad healers fairly quickly and blacklist them. Then again I mainly play divines myself so am rarely looking for one myself.

That said this is not about showing off, if you know your build what is wrong with your build and still play it, and enjoy it, more power to you. The problem here is this is advice being given to a person who would not know, and would trust it to be sound. All the OP build would accomplish is a person not enjoying thier class and possibly being told what is wrong with thier build 10 levels in.

My personal pet peeve is people the term healbots but if thats your schtik then so be it. The OP build would at best be an "ok" healbot.

When you post on a forum, expect feedback.

[ToKu]

Yeah, there's really no reason to start off with all that strength and at less than max wisdom as a healing build. And 14 CON is pretty much the generally accepted minimum for 95% of builds.

I wouldn't pidgeonhole your friend into thinking that all a cleric is for is healing. I always recommend a cleric have some offensive casting abilities as well. I don't really think you can call this build "flexible".

@Toku: An offensive caster with no spell pen feats? Tsk tsk... Even at lower levels it can be useful. I don't think either of my divine casters have Mental Toughness feats and they do just fine.

My assumption was that the person would have no tomes and no twinking, added to that no knowledge about which chains to complete for gear.. the mental toughness helps early on. Especially since casters have the roughest time early game with sp managment.

I did note at the bottom to use the free feat swap to switch that out to spell pen. I threw the build togeather in a few mins trying to show what enhancements to pick up each lvl as well, I myself prefer to be an offensive caster who just happens to be able to heal so my build would be a bit different itself. About lvl 10 is when you'll start encountering spell resistance so could use it as early as then.

[TitoJ]

Naw I identify bad healers fairly quickly and blacklist them. Then again I mainly play divines myself so am rarely looking for one myself.

That said this is not about showing off, if you know your build what is wrong with your build and still play it, and enjoy it, more power to you. The problem here is this is advice being given to a person who would not know, and would trust it to be sound. All the OP build would accomplish is a person not enjoying thier class and possibly being told what is wrong with thier build 10 levels in.

My personal pet peeve is people the term healbots but if thats your schtik then so be it. The OP build would at best be an "ok" healbot.

When you post on a forum, expect feedback.

Nobody said anything about bad healing...just what would be considered a bad build.

There's forum talk..and then there's absolute in game reality.

Nobody at level 10 is going to be calling out a cleric for using op's build. I have yet to get called out for a build flaw.

Your use of the word 'horrible' may have thrown me off of your intentions though. Maybe you aren't saying her build wouldn't work for every part of the game...I don't know. Horrible to me would mean they can barely function...not that they could receive a few extra benefits from something else...

[ToKu]

Nobody said anything about bad healing...just what would be considered a bad build.

There's forum talk..and then there's absolute in game reality.

Nobody at level 10 is going to be calling out a cleric for using op's build. I have yet to get called out for a build flaw.

Your use of the word 'horrible' may have thrown me off of your intentions though. Maybe you aren't saying her build wouldn't work for every part of the game...I don't know. Horrible to me would mean they can barely function...not that they could receive a few extra benefits from something else...

You are correct most people would not be able to identify a flaw in a persons build at level 10, I have caught it a few times but its usually con as a dump stat or some wierd build people are trying.

The OP said the player is a veteran WoW player, I would assume then that they would want a character who would not be "bleh" for better lack of a term, as they leveled up.

Yeah I did come off as hostile in my first post.. its part elitest of me and part im tired of people who have no clue trying to give advice. I could have broken down what is wrong with the OP's build then posted my own I suppose.

Str : Too much if your not intending to be a melee battle cleric, really dont need more then 12 for early level melee'n.

Wis : If this is a caster, max it out at creation.

Con : I understand why you went 13, because of the human con enhancement, just go 14 base.

Cha : If this is a healbot cha is great as it gives you more turns, thus more radiant bursts/auras.

Heal : Worthless, dont bother, ever. In fact the only reason you waste 2 enhancement points on heal is for the radiant line.

Tumble : No more then 1 point is needed in it.

Feats : The feats are all over the place and in the wrong order. Mental toughness "may" help early on but loses its appeal as you level, improved mental toughness is worthless, especially as your final feat. The only reason you would need quicken that early is if you needed it always on due to your lack of concentration. Just take concentration.

My current feat order:
1: Toughness / Extra Turning
3: Extend
6: Empower Healing
9: Heighten / swap Extra Turning for Spell Penetration
12: Quicken
15: Maximize
18: Empower

I solo alot, if I was going to try to squeeze in Greater Spell Pen it'd be in place of Empower but it hasnt been a huge issue to date.

[TitoJ]

You are correct

That's as far as you needed to go. Again, your beefs have nothing to do with in game reality. Your spewing off about stuff you can see on the forums...but in game I guarantee you none of this matters. Game play will be far more vital skill for him to learn, than listening to some guy on forums rant about things that only have a big impact...on the forums.

The OP does have a clue, or else your changes would have had to been drastic...and not minor.

At least I got you to post something intelligent though...that in itself was helpful for the op.

[ToKu]

Let me rephrase it then, if you are playing a build thats about as ineffective as it can be, please PM me your name if your on Thelanis so I can save myself the grief and just blacklist you.

Your entitled to play and have fun however you like, but when your not carrying your weight, or playing incorrectly (wether intentional or not) its cutting into my fun. Save us both the hassel.

My toon names are on my sig, feel free to ignore me as well, we will both be happier for it.

IF on the other hand, your not looking to intentionally handicap yourself from the start, do not use the OP's build for a caster cleric.

[Mithran]

Presumably, the criticisms offered here were made in good faith and intended as helpful suggestions. Separately, I indicated that it had been a long time since I'd made my own 28-point build. Having made these allowances for the sake of courtesy, I posted the build for my friend because I wanted him to be able to play a build that will take him to endgame comfortably and with flexibility. I don't think it's a suboptimal build at all.

This is not my first rodeo. My own Cleric, Essene has served me (and other players) well. The fact that it may not be exactly as you would have done it doesn't make it any less viable.

[smokeyser]

I'm curious why you decided to skip concentration. Even a completely twinked cleric has a REALLY hard time with sp management at low levels. One mistake in the party will usually drain 80% of a players sp without quicken. With it you you pretty much have to play perfectly all the way through every dungeon. Not very realistic for a new player.

EDIT: Other than skipping the most important skill for a caster (concentration) in favor of putting points into skills that are completely useless for a cleric (tumble and heal), it looks like it'll work nicely.

[AtomicMew]

Presumably, the criticisms offered here were made in good faith and intended as helpful suggestions. Separately, I indicated that it had been a long time since I'd made my own 28-point build. Having made these allowances for the sake of courtesy, I posted the build for my friend because I wanted him to be able to play a build that will take him to endgame comfortably and with flexibility. I don't think it's a suboptimal build at all.

This is not my first rodeo. My own Cleric, Essene has served me (and other players) well. The fact that it may not be exactly as you would have done it doesn't make it any less viable.

Actually, no, you posted this build for the forums, since you posted on the forums. Therefore, your build is open for criticism.

I get the point of having a build that is easy to level, even if it is slightly suboptimal at 20. I'm not critical about that, however, there are some obvious mistakes with this build. For example, I assume you put 16 pts into STR to make early levels easier.. yet you take quicken at level 3...? You will simply not have the SP to rock quicken at those levels... and won't until level 15+. Either extend or mental toughness would be better placed and would make your friends journey to the end game more "comfortable" (as you say).

As for concentration, you still need it for scrolls/wands. Without that, your cleric will be severely gimp.

Basically, these aren't small mistakes that only matter on "teh forum." These are big mistakes that will actually have a large influence the playability of your friend's cleric. It's not going to be fun times for him when he'll never have SP due to quicken.