Ok Bard players need some advice!

[Sethus]

Was wanting to roll up a new character and i was thinking Bard. Any suggestions as to what the most useful builds are? One that can be a trap monkey? One that can fight a bit better? Party buffs or crowd control? Just want to get a feel for all of this. I'm just wanting to make one that is going to be useful to all groups. I don't do much soloing as i enjoy helping others. Fire away!

[Qezuzu]

I'm only the ownder of a lvl9 bard, but I still know some things.

If you want CC then you'll want to go pure bard for the capstone. +3 to DC's is huge. Focusing on CC will still mean you can have great buffs and healing, but your combat abilities will be subpar. If you go this route, I would reccomend Spellsinger for the +1 to DC's -10% to SP costs and the freaking regeneration of everyone's SP. However, Virtuoso has a mass HP regeneration song and the song of Capering, which is like Otto's dances but with a diabolically high DC.

If you want to skimp on CC (a pure bard is the only kind that can get useful DC's for end game) then I would get at least two rogue levels for Evasion (considered one of the best feats in the game) and trap skills.

For better DPS, you'll really have to skimp on your CC and spells. A heavy fighter/rogue/ranger splash will be required or you'll just be far too feat starved to do anything. Like 16brd/2ftr/2rog. Always get 2rog if you go for combat. It helps with DPS, gives trapskills, and evasion.

Basically, for CC/buffs/healing, go pure. For DPS/Traps, get a heavy splash. I haven't done too much research on builds but I'm not seeing anyway to get sizeable DPS and CC, since the cap gives +3 DC's and you won't get any free feats with that.

[Gorbadoc]

Check these:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ighlight=guide

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...s.htm#vocative

I recommend you stay pure for your first bard.

Casting and meleeing are generally considered an either/or option; you can do one or the other well, but not both (okay, a caster bard CAN hit stuff; just don't think of it as an acceptable fallback plan, because his DPS will be lousy).

Melee warchanter is probably the most idiot-proof option (not to mention a lot of fun if you already enjoy playing fighter types). Focus on your buffs; then focus on hitting stuff; ignore CC spells completely, though Fascinate/Music of the Dead/Music of Makers are still awesome.

Could you give more information on what you're looking for? 28pt or 32pt? Melee or caster?

Also, sorry to play grammar nazi, but if you would spend twenty extra seconds punctuating correctly, then that would save every reader five seconds of trying to figure out your meaning. Multiply that by dozens of readers, and that's a net time savings. It's just like a bard's Inspire Courage-- you spend those six APs on that last rank of Inspired Attack, because that one extra attack point is given to EVERYONE in the party, and this multiplication of effort results in everyone being better off. This is the way of the bard.

In case you're unsure what I'm talking about, I think you meant "Okay, Bard players, I need some advice!". The way you wrote it, it means that bard players who are okay are in need of advice.

[Kawabonga]

Irinis said it all (ok maybe not all but a lot!)...Check out the Diva's post!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275472

[Sethus]

Check these:

Also, sorry to play grammar nazi, but if you would spend twenty extra seconds punctuating correctly, then that would save every reader five seconds of trying to figure out your meaning. Multiply that by dozens of readers, and that's a net time savings. It's just like a bard's Inspire Courage-- you spend those six APs on that last rank of Inspired Attack, because that one extra attack point is given to EVERYONE in the party, and this multiplication of effort results in everyone being better off. This is the way of the bard.

In case you're unsure what I'm talking about, I think you meant "Okay, Bard players, I need some advice!". The way you wrote it, it means that bard players who are okay are in need of advice.

BLARGH! ****ing grammar nazis.... Kidding man. I get ya. Usually i'm better at that ****. Anyway, on to the important stuff.

As of right now i'm pretty good at the "multi-tasking while fighting ****: thing. I play a pure Cleric right now as my main and i'm proud to say very little bad happens on my watch. I enjoy the "help others do their job better" aspect of the Cleric, so i thought a bard could be a lot of fun in a similar, but different, way.

That being said, i think the wade in and smash **** way could be a lot of fun too. I have a 18th Exploiter build and a 13th Frenzied Berserker as my alts and i enjoy smashing everything around me into submission as well.

From what i understand, though, the CC and buff Bards are in a bit higher demand at higher levels for all the little things they can do for the raid party or regular parties you get into.

So, maybe that's a bit more of the info you need to help. I sincerely appreciate your guys help in this matter. Mucho thanks!

Character would be rolled up as a 32 pt. Unless i went Drow, of course, in which case it would be 28 only.

[Chette]

From what i understand, though, the CC and buff Bards are in a bit higher demand at higher levels for all the little things they can do for the raid party or regular parties you get into.

Not really. All bards can buff equally well. In fact, warchanters (typically battle bards) can give slightly better damage songs. All bards can also CC, in the form of fascinate. Even a fully DPS specced multi-classed bard can get up to a 50 fascinate with items, and that's plenty for epic. Warchanters are the most in-demand, but having back-up healing from spellsingers, and the SP regen song can save a raid if you don't have enough healing power from your clerics and favoured souls. Virtuoso's are sort of a niche, not having one I can't really say much there.

Character would be rolled up as a 32 pt. Unless i went Drow, of course, in which case it would be 28 only.

Don't go Drow, please

In sum, having played a multitude of different bards, they are all fun, and all unique. You need to decide what you want to do with your bard before you can be given much advice. Read the Diva's Bard guide and you'll get a better idea of your options.

[Stitch78]

I'm currently at lvl 12 with a bard/rog/fighter Warchanter. And I am STILL not sure whether it will be 15/3/2 or 16/2/2. It is a beast. If the main melee in the party isn't geared out, doens't play his toon well or doesn't know the quest, I'll probably lead in kills. (Yah, yea, yea, means nothing, I know. It means something to me when the kills leader is a bard or FVS.)

Here's what you need to know:

1) traps:take the first level as rogue, and max the rogue skills, UMD. You will have plenty left over, so dump it into perform. You will still have left over, so go nuts (balance, jump, concentration, sneak). With decent intelligence, you can keep search and disable device maxed and get enough open lock levels that you won't fail often. Take the second rogue level around 7-8, because that's when you will start appreciating evasion. And with only two rogue levels, you can get every trap in the game (maybe 2-3 exceptions) if you just dont vendor the items you loot without checking their stats first.

2) melee: much like a pally, to be effective in melee you must be clicking and pre-clicking things - heroism/greater, focusing chant, songs, action boosts, haste, blur, displacement, rage. But once you're buffed, you'll have the to-hit to leave Power Attack (warchanter feat prerequisite) all the time. The rogue level 1 gets you sneak attack, so avoid getting aggro whenever possible for the DPS boost.

3) casting: buffs only, no real offensive casting (until certain things are fixed at least - AOE spells like shout now need hard targets?!? yuk). But the buffs are amazing. By your 9th bard level, 3 song buffs (plus one for the other rogue in the party) Eagle's Splendor (save a gear slot) haste, blur, displace, GH, rage, inviz PLUS all the things you can easily UMD like fire shield, stoneskin, protection/resist energy, dimension door, etc.

4) emergency: when everything has gone down hill, swap to your best Perform item and hit the Fascinate button. Then use your somewhat meager healing abilities (carry a greater efficacy/devotion item) and UMD scroll/wand abilities to get people up. Or, run away while everything is fascinated. Or charm the fascinated mobs to help you out.

Basically, you can play every role the party needs. You can improve your healing a lot by tweaking your enhancements and carrying wands. So, um, that's my vote.

[Sethus]

Once again guys, thanks for the help.

Diva's guide is definitely the bees knees for useful bard info. I'll keep reading it and decide what route to go shortly.

Stitch: You may've just sold me on that build. I like the versatility thing and if it's still effective at high levels i can definitely dig on that build. What race did you select and what do the starting stats look like? If i may be so bold as to ask. I'm thinkin of doing it half-elf and doing the Pally feat for the saves. Hit me with some more knowledge man.

[voodoogroves]

You will miss that song at 16 in raids on your war chanter...or at least I sure would.

[Gorbadoc]

That, and two other things about splashing:
1) Leveling, you'll feel the retardation. Or you would if you had already played a pure bard. I rolled an evasion bard after I had capped a pure bard, and while I think Evasion was totally worth it, I felt the pinch of having to wait two additional levels for each new or upgraded bard buff.

2) A splash build CAN be stronger and tougher in melee than a pure build, but this isn't automatic. Meanwhile, the pure build will almost automatically have better buffs (I say 'almost', because a splashed War Chanter has one more point of damage in his Inspire Courage than a pure Virtuoso or Spellsinger, and I don't feel like arguing over whether that one point of damage trumps the fact that the pure Virtuoso or Spellsinger has other useful songs and longer durations for everything).

If you're running with a guild, there's no need to worry; they know what your character can do, plus you can get ongoing feedback about the effectiveness of any tweaks you make to your buffs (for example, when I got Heroic Companion IV on my Spellsinger, I had guildies commenting on noticing the difference after an elite Mindsunder).

If you run with a lot of PUGs, though, staying pure (especially War Chanter) will give you the easiest time finding a party. My pure bard (who is actually kind of gimpy) wound up getting VoD elite and ToD hard shortly after each quest came out, when they were still considered extremely difficult quests. In both cases, some random raid guild recruited me to run with them purely so they could have a maxed Inspire Courage. As far as they were concerned, the fact that I could heal was just an incidental bonus.

To put all this another way,

BASTARD CHILD BARDS:

The less Bard levels your Bard has, the less respect you get from other Bards! But these can be fun and viable characters. You just have to be ready to step aside and let the Bard with more powerful songs do the singing.

[Stitch78]

You will miss that song at 16 in raids on your war chanter...or at least I sure would.

The Inspire Heroics song you get at 15, not 16. Did you mean something else?

[Stitch78]

Stitch: You may've just sold me on that build. I like the versatility thing and if it's still effective at high levels i can definitely dig on that build. What race did you select and what do the starting stats look like? If i may be so bold as to ask. I'm thinkin of doing it half-elf and doing the Pally feat for the saves. Hit me with some more knowledge man.

Rolled it as a human for the extra feat, which comes in handy as a melee focused bard. There are a ton of guides around if you flip through this forum, and I doubt my build is completely "original" nor am I any kind of DDO creative megamind.

I'm at work so I can't give you exact stats, but: 14 or 16 STR; 16 Dex (will need a +1 tome or use of a stat raise to get to 17 for TWF); 14 CON; 12 or 14 INT (for skills and traps). You can dump wisdom and charisma. CHA tomes are the cheapest and +6 CHA items are usually easy to find. The offensive casting will always be craptastic, other than Fascinate. I would not go lower than 14 CON unless you are an experienced aggro-manager, plan to dodge disintegrate rays and have to gear to keep your DEX high enough that your evasion will usually save you.

Level progression: Rogue, Fighter, Bard, Bard, Bard, Rogue, Bard, Bard, Bard, Bard. That gets you to 10. You want to get 7 Bard levels quickly, because that opens up 3rd level spells and Displacement and Haste are must-haves to enter combat at that level. At that point, you need to figure out when and whether to take a 3rd rogue level, which gets you an additional 1d6 of sneak attack damage and boosts your rogue skills (spot and open lock), but puts off your next round of bard spells. I will probably take my 2nd fighter level at 15, when I can use the bonus fighter feat to pick up Greater TWF (need to wait to get your BAB high enough).

Note: by taking a 3rd rogue level, you will lose access to lvl 6 bard spells, if that matters to you. I think the big loss is to Otto's Irresistable Dance, but to each their own.

Spells are pretty obvious and can be changed. Same with enhancements.

Feats: I went a little off the well-troden path here. Power Attack, Wep Focus: Slashing (need Wep Focus and PA for Warchanter), Two Wep Fighting (get the Dex tome or stat raise), Skill Focus: UMD, Improved TWF, Improved Crit: Slashing. That get's you through lvl 12. After that, you will want Great TWF and probably Toughness. That only leaves 1 more feat and there are seveal good choices, including taking Toughness twice.

Most people will want Extend, Maximize, Empower and Quicken, but you can't fit them all in. Of those, I think Extend is probably best for this build. You won't be doing much offensive casting, so Max and Emp are not critical. Quicken is lovely for the no-fail self healing, but you probably won't be healing in combat too much. Plus you will have a good Jump skill.

UMD is a must. Can't stress it enough.

Gear: Divine Power clicky. Can't say it enough. With my level-ups into STR, a Divine Power click plus rage... well, people are always surprised to see a bard doing the STR levers!

Here's the melee trick: If you can get your STR up around 25 for combat, with your songs and self buffs, you can leave Power Attack on almost all the time and do damage that is only slightly below that off a pally or fighter. Actually, better than a pally who isn't using his own Divine Favor, Divine Sacrifice and Smites.

I never, ever have trouble getting groups. Most leaders LOVE having a bard who is also a rogue who is also a warchanter. The DPS factor (which they can't know about on the LFM screen) is just a bonus.

Hope that was helpful.

[DigitalNikos]

Would going Half-Elf and taking the Fighter feat in exchange for the 1 level of fighter (thus still giving the martial weapon proficiency), be worth the loss of the extra feat you'd gain from actually taking that one level of fighter?

Everything provided here sounds like the build i'd like to create, but I'm torn between going Human and having the 2 extra feats, or going Half-elf and potentially keeping a level in either bard or rogue at the risk of losing those.

Any advice?

[Irinis]

Would going Half-Elf and taking the Fighter feat in exchange for the 1 level of fighter (thus still giving the martial weapon proficiency), be worth the loss of the extra feat you'd gain from actually taking that one level of fighter?

Everything provided here sounds like the build i'd like to create, but I'm torn between going Human and having the 2 extra feats, or going Half-elf and potentially keeping a level in either bard or rogue at the risk of losing those.

Any advice?

Only on a pure 20 Bard, but if you're splashing 2 rogue for traps and evasion you may as well splash fighter in for feats as well, especially on a Warchanter. Until we get Tier III it's just not that big of a deal for a Warchanter to splash more than 2 levels.

But, a pure 20 Bard can use Master's Touch for weapon proficiency anyway, making Human still the much better choice. If anything, rogue sneak attack dilettante on a Half-Elf would prove more useful to pure 20 Bard. 18/2 can work, but... why not get the extra feats for soooo much more?

[DigitalNikos]

Cool! Thanks for the advice!

[Wurmheart]

But, a pure 20 Bard can use Master's Touch for weapon proficiency anyway, making Human still the much better choice. If anything, rogue sneak attack dilettante on a Half-Elf would prove more useful to pure 20 Bard. 18/2 can work, but... why not get the extra feats for soooo much more?

with warchanter 2 you can also grab a martial weapon proficiency of choice i believe, even further reducing benefits of using the fighter dillitante feat.

and if you do multiclass with rogue you could also consider the paladin dillitante for the +5 bonus to saves (if that isnt alignment resticted) to get a even better evasion.




and i have to agree with Stitch, a melee warchanter with rogue splash is a beast to play
i'm currently working towards my 15/3 rogue/2 fighter split build with 2handed weapons and it's real nice dps and utility.

[Gorbadoc]

Only on a pure 20 Bard, but if you're splashing 2 rogue for traps and evasion you may as well splash fighter in for feats as well, especially on a Warchanter. Until we get Tier III it's just not that big of a deal for a Warchanter to splash more than 2 levels.

But, a pure 20 Bard can use Master's Touch for weapon proficiency anyway, making Human still the much better choice. If anything, rogue sneak attack dilettante on a Half-Elf would prove more useful to pure 20 Bard. 18/2 can work, but... why not get the extra feats for soooo much more?

Warchanter has the least reason to splash fighter, as they can already get proficiency in their martial weapon of choice for one AP.

[Stitch78]

Would going Half-Elf and taking the Fighter feat in exchange for the 1 level of fighter (thus still giving the martial weapon proficiency), be worth the loss of the extra feat you'd gain from actually taking that one level of fighter?

Everything provided here sounds like the build i'd like to create, but I'm torn between going Human and having the 2 extra feats, or going Half-elf and potentially keeping a level in either bard or rogue at the risk of losing those.

Any advice?

There are good points made above, but I'll add this:

Human gives you 1 extra skill point per level, which is nice on this build, since you want Search, Disable, Open Lock, Spot, Balance, Perform, Jump, UMD and Haggle.

Also, Humans get Human Versatility which is a HUGE bonus since at 3rd tier it gives you +4 to all your rogue skills, and +4 to saves which is handy on traps you need to bypass, and +4 to attack and damage. All for the price of one enhancement. I usually save my uses for traps, since that is what lets you easily keep pace with a pure rogue for search and disable.

[Sethus]

Killer killer killer advice Stitch. I think i may end up using that build. I may skip the 3rd level of rogue for the 16 bard since i'd like to have access to the 6th level spells. If i give that a shot i'll let you know how it works out. Thanks again for all the advice.

As it stands, if i do decide on this particular build i'm probably going to go human then for the extra feat. Quick question, though. If i don't want to TWF what would the exchanges be for THF? Just higher str? Weapon focus slashing still but maybe GTWF? I'm curious as to your thoughts on that.

Thanks again!

[Lord_WC]

I'd go with wf if warchanter. The bump in your hp is really noticable (up to 60), you have +3 dam over lesser races, and two sources of healing is awesome.

Also

Grab a shield turtle up with your madstone boots and intimidate. You really have the skill points to crank in intim, get a nice bonus from PrE, you have to have at least 16 cha either way. With equipment you can reach high enough intim to hold most of the bosses. You are wf as well, and full self buffing. Quite ideal.