Virtuoso: The New Splash PrE?

[Gorbadoc]

I believe we'll see an increase in splashed melee Virtuosos thanks to the second-tier bard Prestige Enhancements. Between its improved CC, song regeneration, and healing song, it's a strong alternative to splashed warchanter builds.

I suspect we'll also see an increase in pure-bard Warchanters, as Warchanter II reduces some of the reasons for splashing in the first place (reduced need for Master's Touch, slight boost to hitpoints).

In the following comparison, '16 Warchanter' means a melee-specced level 20 character with 16 levels of bard and the Warchanter II enhancement; same for the other headings, just replace the level number and PrE as appropriate. Obviously, 16 bard levels is not the only type of splash; however, 16 is the first big breakpoint once you decide not to take that 20th bard level. By comparing 16 to 20, I can ignore Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Irresistible Dance, and Inspire Heroics, all of which go away on the also-popular 14 bard splashes.


16 Warchanter:

• +7/+8 Inspire Courage.
• 16 uses of Bardic Music.
• Level 16 for purposes of base song duration.
• Otto's Irresistible has 16+item spell pen modifier.
• Music of the Dead and Music of Makers cost 14 AP (this also gets you 4 additional uses of Bardic Music).
• All Martial Weapon Proficiencies.

20 Warchanter:

• +8/+9 Inspire Courage.
• 22 uses of Bardic Music.
• Level 20 for purposes of base song duration.
• +20% song buff durations.
• Otto's Irresistible has 22+item spell pen modifier.
• Music of the Dead and Music of Makers cost 14 AP (this also gets you 4 additional uses of Bardic Music).
• Martial Weapon Proficiency in one weapon of your choice (includes Dwarven Axe if you're a Dwarf).

16 Virtuoso:

• +6/+6 Inspire Courage.
• 25 uses of Bardic Music + regen.
• Level 16 for purposes of base song duration.
• +20% song buff durations.
• Song of Capering needs no spell pen but has a high DC Will Save.
• Music of the Dead and Music of Makers cost 4 AP.
• All Martial Weapon Proficiencies.

20 Virtuoso:

• +7/+7 Inspire Courage
• 31 uses of Bardic Music + regen.
• Level 20 for purposes of base song duration.
• +40% song buff durations.
• Song of Capering needs no spell pen but has a high DC Will Save.
• Otto's Irresistible has 22+item spell pen modifier.
• Music of the Dead and Music of Makers cost 4 AP.
• No extra Martial Weapon Proficiencies.

Comments:
Comparing these lists, I find I like 16 Virtuoso and 20 Warchanter for crowd control. Between the two, 16 Virtuoso has the better CC, while 20 Warchanter has the better Inspire Courage. Extra bard levels on the Virtuoso would be redundant with the CC he already has and take away the combat benefits of splashing. Meanwhile, splashing the Warchanter would improve his melee abilities, but it would reduce the melee abilities of everyone else in his party, and I at least would feel uncomfortable calling the splashed Warchanter a good CC build.

Of course, among people who don't care about any bard ability that isn't a buff, Warchanter with a deep fighter/rogue splash will remain popular. For the rest of us, I keep liking splashed Virtuoso and pure Warchanter more and more.

Assumptions in the above lists:

• With 16 bard levels, the remaining 4 levels will include at least one level with full martial weapon proficiencies.
• No Spell Penetration feats.
• Lingering Song is skipped in my calculations. Just remember that Virtuosos HAVE to have Lingering Song II, and both PrEs will probably want Lingering Song II or III.
• Every bard will max out Inspired Attack and Inspired Damage.
• Every 20 bard will take the capstone.
• After level 12, Virtuosos will use Extra Song IV to satisfy the prerequisite.
• No item for additional uses of Bardic Music per rest. This is of course a flawed assumption; just add that number on if you plan to use such an item.

[BoBoDaClown]

Nice breakdown.

Just a personal opinion:

I'm not keen on the splash virt due to the hit to inspire courage. Maybe I'm being too limited in my thinking, but on my pure Spellsinger I resent the loss of song damage to even a splash WC

[bartosy]

I kinda feel the same way as Bobo. I ran with a 16 splash 4 virts from u7 to 3 days ago when i just couldn't take it anymore and went warchanter.

Things that really disapointed me was the song of capering and the song
of sustaining.

The song of capering because the mobs get saves every 4 or 5 seconds wich for a cc with a dc of 60+ and shares the same cooldown timer as enthrall is just 100% unacceptable.

The song of sustaining is just really lackluster. Its like a cleric divine heals ticks of 4 or 5 with enough healing amp 8 or 9 maybe 10 every 2 seconds.. This might be great in low / mid lvl questing but its not enough for high ll quests and is barely noticable.

Add those to the fact that you actually miss out on damage and so does your group and atk and youre only left with enthrall.. wich is ofcourse still a good cc but just not worth the investment compared to the other 2 pre's..

Maybe virtuoso is something for the really heavy splash out there like the 12/8 builds ?

[Gorbadoc]

What's interesting is that +1/+2 is reason enough to go Warchanter for so many, yet +1/+1 and six songs are not reason enough to go for bard levels 17-20. I believe the argument is usually based on DPS.

Actually, the success of this argument is Exhibit A in the argument that, no, Inspire Courage should not be the only reason why you take a bard into your party. Granted, the 16/4 splash is an easy sell if DPS is all that matters; it's a matter of numbers to show that the splash improves personal DPS enough to compensate for its harm to party DPS.

Virtuoso is a tougher sell, especially if you're trying to sell it to someone who hasn't seen a skilled bard player in action. Virtuosos and pure Warchanters both get better crowd control than the 16/4 Warchanter hybrid, but the benefit depends on game content and player skill.

Come to think of it, as a public service, we probably should keep mentioning in this forum that, at high levels, a bad Warchanter is better than a bad Virtuoso. My suspicion, though, is that in the hands of good players, splashed Virtuoso versus splashed Warchanter versus pure Warchanter will come down to personal style. Splashed Virtuoso will be a great pick for anyone who enjoys the play style and who can make good use of so many charges of bardic music.

I suppose we'll see. I just hope I don't start getting rejected from parties for having splashed my Virtuoso. :-)

Edit: As an additional note, suppose we do see melee bards move in two directions: Splashed Virtuoso OR pure Warchanter. It may become fashionable to accept one of each type into a party. If you already have the pure Warchanter, then the splashed Virtuoso will be Fighter Junior with awesome crowd control. He'll be better than a splashed Warchanter both at fighting and at crowd control.

[voodoogroves]

Truth is, no one will notice except the super uber highly-optimized speed-run groups.

[Samadhi]

Truth is, no one will notice except the super uber highly-optimized speed-run groups.

Disagree. The groups struggling to win are going to benefit far more from +1 to damage than the groups that are completely maximized out anyhow.

[voodoogroves]

Nice breakdown.

Just a personal opinion:

I'm not keen on the splash virt due to the hit to inspire courage. Maybe I'm being too limited in my thinking, but on my pure Spellsinger I resent the loss of song damage to even a splash WC

Me either

[Aashrym]

Yeah, virt doesn't suffer in the CC song department but overall party damage output might if the splashed classes don't make up for it. The key being the splashed classes need to make up for the loss.


Inspire courage is the bard contribution most people are looking for and it takes quite a bit to justify even a slightly lower bonus.


Party make up is also a big contributing factor. Song CC will be a niche ability in the presence of mass hold monster or wail of the banshee, and it only takes one inspire courage for the party so having a second bard in the group already with maxed out songs would eliminate the need for another maxed out song, for examples.


I think it can be done, but for the most part that war chanter bonus will do more for the group than the virt songs.

[Samadhi]

Nice breakdown.

Just a personal opinion:

I'm not keen on the splash virt due to the hit to inspire courage. Maybe I'm being too limited in my thinking, but on my pure Spellsinger I resent the loss of song damage to even a splash WC

This.

Ideal Songs is a pure Warchanter. ANY drop to that is a loss. -1 to damage (not going warchanter; not going pure) is acceptable loss. More than that? Not really acceptable if you plan to raid IMO.

[Thrudh]

This.

Ideal Songs is a pure Warchanter. ANY drop to that is a loss. -1 to damage (not going warchanter; not going pure) is acceptable loss. More than that? Not really acceptable if you plan to raid IMO.

Heh...

Exactly which raid will fail if you have -2 damage bard song from the maximum possible?

[voodoogroves]

Heh...

Exactly which raid will fail if you have -2 damage bard song from the maximum possible?

None, just like using Battleaxes to DPS.

It'll certainly work. Other things will work better. Finding the mix with trade-offs is something each player will need to do.