Greensteels. Look at your recent nerfs and re-consider please.

[AMDarkwolf]

Also, fix them so they re balanced. I will give examples(NO I'm not calling for a 'lets nerf any thats still good' move)

Lets start with triple fire greensteel weapons. The incineration Proc's at about the same chance as lighting strike. Lets also use a ice mob(Frost giant) as a target mob. Being that it takes purple numbers from fire, you would think the fire weapon, the weapon specifically designed to target this mobs weakness, would pull ahead of the lighting strike. It does not. The two are almost even before you consider the random procs.(considering holy + lighting burst and flaming + flaming burst as first 2 tiers)

Now lets Look at the numbers produced by the random effect. Fire will hit for ALWAYS less than 500, sometimes only 390-450ish(Is about the range I've seen on mine) but a LitII will hit for 600, give or take, each and every time. Both proc at about the same % chance(as far as I can tell) but the Lit II easily wins out in dps. This is fine if it was against 'normal' mobs that had no weakness, but against mobs WEAK to fire? Thats silly. Please up the dmg of the single shard greensteels so that they at least 'match' a greensteel verses targets they are 'strong' against.(Ideally, LitII should be more dmg than the single shards vs non-weak mobs, and WEAKER than the single shard vs mobs weak against that type)



Now my next point. WHY did u nerf TTS(trap the soul) on greensteels? What could possibly have made you decide that a random (1, 2%? maybe?) instakill effect was... overpowered? You first gave it a will save. Fine. Then u made it get blocked by ANY form of deathwrd/deathblock, etc. ... one or the other, why both? (Even though EITHER was a little much, for non-deathwarded/named mobs, vorpals have a MUCH higher chance of working, and its not like the soul gems are making any of us silly rich) And why was this a stealth change that nobody was warned about? I went out and made myself a vac II specifically to help with epics. The day after maint. Hit and I was left with a useless piece of ... well u get the idea. I can understand that you do not wish people to 'be vorpaling' their way though epics. FINE, make it so that epic ward 'guards' against trap the soul. PROBLEM FREAKING SOLVED, I'd be happy, a little upset i can't use it for what i want, but at least it would STILL be a useful weapon, and still be worth the investment making it. It would be a alternative to a vorpal for a QS user.

I swear that for the past year, the people doing any development of the game sit down and really work out one tiny aspect of the game, then realize you spent 'all day' on that ONE TINY thing, and rush though the rest and run off to the bar. Like really, look at the ToD sets. Notice how a few sets are sought by many, and the vast majority of the rest are 'garbage' even to the classes they are MEANT for? (Example being acrobat set. What garbage; Have any of you dev's even PLAYED a acrobat to 20? NO i don't mean 'create' a lv 20 and try it for 5 min, but actually PLAY?)

Right then my rant is over, and while a little hostile, I really do feel my 'suggestions' are worth looking at.

[AMDarkwolf]

Comments? And bump!

[Pape_27]

Also, fix them so they re balanced. I will give examples(NO I'm not calling for a 'lets nerf any thats still good' move)

Lets start with triple fire greensteel weapons. The incineration Proc's at about the same chance as lighting strike. Lets also use a ice mob(Frost giant) as a target mob. Being that it takes purple numbers from fire, you would think the fire weapon, the weapon specifically designed to target this mobs weakness, would pull ahead of the lighting strike. It does not. The two are almost even before you consider the random procs.(considering holy + lighting burst and flaming + flaming burst as first 2 tiers)

Now lets Look at the numbers produced by the random effect. Fire will hit for ALWAYS less than 500, sometimes only 390-450ish(Is about the range I've seen on mine) but a LitII will hit for 600, give or take, each and every time. Both proc at about the same % chance(as far as I can tell) but the Lit II easily wins out in dps. This is fine if it was against 'normal' mobs that had no weakness, but against mobs WEAK to fire? Thats silly. Please up the dmg of the single shard greensteels so that they at least 'match' a greensteel verses targets they are 'strong' against.(Ideally, LitII should be more dmg than the single shards vs non-weak mobs, and WEAKER than the single shard vs mobs weak against that type)

first question - you knew going in that the fire weapon causes less damage that a LitII, didn't you? One is a double shard recipe and the other is a single shard recipe. So it kinda makes sense that the double shard weapon would do more damage, doesn't it? You are already recieving more damage due to the fire aspect, what else do you want?

Want more fire related damage, make a double shard weapon with a fire aspect like a magma surge. That should even things out i suppose. But you do realize that a lot of the high end enemies are fire resistant, right? So, maybe make a LitII...

Now my next point. WHY did u nerf TTS(trap the soul) on greensteels? What could possibly have made you decide that a random (1, 2%? maybe?) instakill effect was... overpowered? You first gave it a will save. Fine. Then u made it get blocked by ANY form of deathwrd/deathblock, etc. ... one or the other, why both? (Even though EITHER was a little much, for non-deathwarded/named mobs, vorpals have a MUCH higher chance of working, and its not like the soul gems are making any of us silly rich) And why was this a stealth change that nobody was warned about? I went out and made myself a vac II specifically to help with epics. The day after maint. Hit and I was left with a useless piece of ... well u get the idea. I can understand that you do not wish people to 'be vorpaling' their way though epics. FINE, make it so that epic ward 'guards' against trap the soul. PROBLEM FREAKING SOLVED, I'd be happy, a little upset i can't use it for what i want, but at least it would STILL be a useful weapon, and still be worth the investment making it. It would be a alternative to a vorpal for a QS user.

I swear that for the past year, the people doing any development of the game sit down and really work out one tiny aspect of the game, then realize you spent 'all day' on that ONE TINY thing, and rush though the rest and run off to the bar. Like really, look at the ToD sets. Notice how a few sets are sought by many, and the vast majority of the rest are 'garbage' even to the classes they are MEANT for? (Example being acrobat set. What garbage; Have any of you dev's even PLAYED a acrobat to 20? NO i don't mean 'create' a lv 20 and try it for 5 min, but actually PLAY?)

Right then my rant is over, and while a little hostile, I really do feel my 'suggestions' are worth looking at.

Not sure what to say about the rest of your post. Always thought deathward protected from vorp attacks and the like. Didnt realize that was a "nerf". On my planner, it has always said that trap the soul worked off a save, so thats nothing new to me.


As for the ToD sets, I kinda agree. The one ToD ring I have is the radiant ring. When the set is equipped, you get one extra turn. Compare that to the other cleric sets, the other sets offer three additional turns. Doesnt quite make sense to me how the sets are set up. Maybe that should be looked at and revised. A little more balance between the sets could be useful. Some sets are Very Powerful, while others seem to gimp players while only offering a small bonus.

But then again, the people with the hard sought after ravager sets would scream bloody murder if they were nerfed, so maybe not. Good luck sorting everything out and hope you find a workable solution

[bendover]

The incineration on a triple fire is a 5% proc. The lightning strike is about a 2% proc. On the frost mobs the incineration is going to pull WAY ahead and it's not really that close.

TTS is fine the way it is. It's proccing around 2.5% with a 30 will save DC. If they buffed it up anymore that would be too overpowered.

GS are fine. Just about all of them can be effective in something. (Except elemental mastery that just sucks)

[EyeRekon]

Now my next point. WHY did u nerf TTS(trap the soul) on greensteels? What could possibly have made you decide that a random (1, 2%? maybe?) instakill effect was... overpowered? You first gave it a will save. Fine. Then u made it get blocked by ANY form of deathwrd/deathblock, etc. ... one or the other, why both?

I'm not aware of Deathblock preventing TTS. For fun I've used my Vaccum weapon in Epic content and definitely have some gems of Epic-Warded (counts as Deathblock) mobs. I wouldn't recommend it though. The proc rate is low and epic mobs can make that save fairly often. I haven't retried since U7 so I presume you're reporting there is a nerf there?

[Sarezar]

Their decisions with Shroud loot have been a total fiasco.

They were warned from day 1 that concordant opposition would be too powerful when people have too many of them on (or any nice guard for that matter) - they "waited" till people got e.g. 5 of them, then made 4 of them useless. No deconstruction given.

They were warned from day 1 that transmuting is too powerful - they "waited" till everyone made a ton of them and got rid of all the other good weapons they had, then changed it to metalline. No deconstruction given.

It is a system where you may make mistakes. The first testers spent loads of ingredients trying to find combinations. It is a 3 year old, done to death, quest. No deconstruction given.


I don't care about any arguements that anyone has against deconstruction this. Yes it is raid loot, but I haven't seen them changing raid loot effects in any other raid again and again. Their changes prove that it was a badly designed system and just the fact that they change the effects whenever they want is the only reason I need to ask for deconstruction - of any fair kind even if it is not 100% return of what you spent.


Sorry for the harsh words but you've heard them before from me and many others. It's a shame that you put some extra cash over fun and what your community wants.

[EyeRekon]

Their changes prove that it was a badly designed system and just the fact that they change the effects whenever they want is the only reason I need to ask for deconstruction - of any fair kind even if it is not 100% return of what you spent..

The crafting system works wonderfully. Things change. I always figured they were done with Greensteel and wouldn't revisit it at all, not to add Handwraps or anything. Then overnight peoples Pos/Pos True Res clickies switched to Raise Dead. Earth/Earth clickies were changed so you could only summon 1 ele at a time (reasonable), and so on. Having multi Conc-Op is obviously a game-shattering imbalance and they did the right thing to stop it - those affected deserved a way out.

So obviously they still come back to tinker with the Greensteel system. You aren't the only person asking, complaining, nagging, or howling for deconstruction. IIRC there's been a short Dev comment that it was nearly impossible (which I don't see how). I honestly don't ever see deconstruction happening - why would they want to reduce your grind? Keep putting quarters into the machine baby. I find it comforting to know that after much similar complaining they changed Dragontouched, so maybe they will tackle Greensteel afterall. I remain pessimistic however.

Things change, maybe Trap the Soul will get revamped with the rest of the HD-based spells and become cool again. Hang onto your GS and keep the heat up.

[Sarezar]

The crafting system works wonderfully. Things change. I always figured they were done with Greensteel and wouldn't revisit it at all, not to add Handwraps or anything. Then overnight peoples Pos/Pos True Res clickies switched to Raise Dead. Earth/Earth clickies were changed so you could only summon 1 ele at a time (reasonable), and so on. Having multi Conc-Op is obviously a game-shattering imbalance and they did the right thing to stop it - those affected deserved a way out.

So obviously they still come back to tinker with the Greensteel system. You aren't the only person asking, complaining, nagging, or howling for deconstruction. IIRC there's been a short Dev comment that it was nearly impossible (which I don't see how). I honestly don't ever see deconstruction happening - why would they want to reduce your grind? Keep putting quarters into the machine baby. I find it comforting to know that after much similar complaining they changed Dragontouched, so maybe they will tackle Greensteel afterall. I remain pessimistic however.

Things change, maybe Trap the Soul will get revamped with the rest of the HD-based spells and become cool again. Hang onto your GS and keep the heat up.

It is not impossible. It may be impossible to give back materials for all greensteels, as some may have had a faulty double upgrade. But for the rest they can give the ingredients. Even for the faulty ones, they could give back just the ingredients for the one shard, it's far better than no deconstruction at all.

I never said that I am the only one saying these things by the way, I even said I'm not (unless you were just emphasizing, in which case ignore this sentence). And I do agree with everything you said, apart from the "things change". If things change, then their minds should also change and add deconstruction. It's very easy to do, if they want to do it. Check naming on item, destroy item, put ingredients in inventory. Simple. They could even give us the Vale ingredients, but I think most people would be delighted even if they got just the large ones.

[Morosy]

TTS is fine the way it is. It's proccing around 2.5% with a 30 will save DC. If they buffed it up anymore that would be too overpowered.

The point he is complaining about is that apparently it's now blocked by death blocking effects, not that it's underpowered. I didn't know that,

hopefully he's wrong.

[EyeRekon]

It is not impossible. It may be impossible to give back materials for all greensteels, as some may have had a faulty double upgrade. But for the rest they can give the ingredients. Even for the faulty ones, they could give back just the ingredients for the one shard, it's far better than no deconstruction at all.

That's one idea. If we, the community, do all the work and put forward a concensus-agreed deconstruction mapping then maybe it'll get done. The hard work of decision making would have been done for them, and have the by-and-large endorsement of the community. If this is a topic you are so passionate about maybe you could get the ball rolling or pick up the ball where others have left off.

Commentary that may belong in another thread
Would you advocate a one-shot complete deconstruction? Or step-by-step deconstruction?
In other words would a Tier-3 Greensteel Greataxe of Mineral turn into Tapers, and so forth? Or would it just go down one tier into to a Tier-2 and give you back two imbued supreme shards? Then you could decontruct each shard individually.

Built into the mapping must be exploit protections such that you can't go:
Ingredients -> Item -> Ingredients and come out ahead in some way. You must be prevented from intentionally making faulty, cheap dual-shards hoping to score Large Devil Scales, for example. That is one reason to allow a level of randomization into ingredient loss.

[Sarezar]

That's one idea. If we, the community, do all the work and put forward a concensus-agreed deconstruction mapping then maybe it'll get done. The hard work of decision making would have been done for them, and have the by-and-large endorsement of the community. If this is a topic you are so passionate about maybe you could get the ball rolling or pick up the ball where others have left off.

I have done so many many times in the past. Don't let my low number of posts fool you, I'm sure some of the Devs hate me for it.

I have also read hundreds of posts on this subject, including several excellent suggestions. Although to be honest, I don't think it requires an elaborate system. It depends how much they want to give us back. From giving us exactly what we spent (excluding faulty double shard upgrades) to giving us 1dX number of random ingredients, there are many ways to do this, but it is ultimately their decision.

I've even suggested a system where we could reapply the effects of any tier on an item. It would keep a level of grind the same but not completely ruin the item. Different from deconstruction, and not ideal for everyone, but still better than being stuck with a nerfed and useless item.

[Razcar]

Their decisions with Shroud loot have been a total fiasco.
...
Sorry for the harsh words but you've heard them before from me and many others. It's a shame that you put some extra cash over fun and what your community wants.

Amen. I agree completely. It's a disgrace that we don't have any GS deconstruction after 3 years. +1

[Antheal]

(Example being acrobat set. What garbage; Have any of you dev's even PLAYED a acrobat to 20? NO i don't mean 'create' a lv 20 and try it for 5 min, but actually PLAY?)

Replace "acrobat" for, well, anything. For example: the preset character paths.

I asked this exact same question about Pale Masters after they were released.

[sirgog]

Amen. I agree completely. It's a disgrace that we don't have any GS deconstruction after 3 years. +1

/signed.

Once you get to the point that the Shroud is no longer any challenge at all, you should never need to go back there. But it is *still* the most important loot run and source of equipment for even the most geared level 20s.

[EatSmart]

Now my next point. WHY did u nerf TTS(trap the soul) on greensteels? What could possibly have made you decide that a random (1, 2%? maybe?) instakill effect was... overpowered? You first gave it a will save. Fine. Then u made it get blocked by ANY form of deathwrd/deathblock, etc. ... one or the other, why both?

Vacuum still bypassing epic ward. The following was taken about half an hour ago:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8760/vacproc.jpg

Edit: removed inline [img] tags on large image, added smaller image

[Gorbadoc]

WHOAH! Thank you for the picture, but please scale it down or replace the in-line picture with a link to the picture. With my low-res monitor, that picture is stretching the width of every post on this page, forcing me to scroll back and forth to read anything.

Edit: Thank you :-)

[bendover]

The point he is complaining about is that apparently it's now blocked by death blocking effects, not that it's underpowered. I didn't know that,

hopefully he's wrong.

It's not. Deathward or deathblock doesn't stop it.

[EatSmart]

WHOAH! Thank you for the picture, but please scale it down or replace the in-line picture with a link to the picture. With my low-res monitor, that picture is stretching the width of every post on this page, forcing me to scroll back and forth to read anything.

That better?

[AMDarkwolf]

Sure it is, epic ward does not(this I knew) but deathblock/deathward does.

When using my vacuum, solo, with no other 'negative effects' the 'deathward' icon pops up over their heads many times. Maybe its just me(I did just experience a bug where all my enhancements were having no effect on you toon, and had to reset them) but the only time it works is on mobs that have no death-immune effect(IE a FoD kills them)

[AMDarkwolf]

Vacuum still bypassing epic ward. The following was taken about half an hour ago:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8760/vacproc.jpg

Edit: removed inline [img] tags on large image, added smaller image

Since I can't see what your equiped, is that a result of a greensteel WEAPON, a greensteel GUARD item, or a souleater?

If the guard, yes, it works, and from what I have read about it, it always has, and has no save attached. (If the mob triggers it and has no defense against it, it works) -(Correction, 5 min after posting this, the info I had on this was wrong. My bad)

If a souleater, I cannot comment since I have yet to get one.

if weapon then.... idk what I'm doing wrong.