Why PVP is important

[Ainimache]

Granted I do not PvP and am not even remotely interested in at this time. So, why respond to the PvP threads you may ask.
Silence is the same as acceptance. When threads are posted about PvP the majority of them I have seen involve player classes and abilities being changed because someone cannot seem to win a fight in the PvP arenas. If the non-PvP crowd were to sit back and say nothing there is a very good chance that the devs would see these ideas and respond by implementing them if no opposition is voiced. I enjoy my characters the way they are and the only changes I would like to see made to them are ones that improve them.
The abilities in DnD were created with the idea of groups of players using their abilities in unison to overcome their foes not to destroy each other. I agree with all the post that if your goal in your gaming life is to be the most dominate character in the game and able to destroy everyone else there are other games out there that cater to this mentality. If you enjoy grouping and achieving the goals set forth in the game then DDO is for you.

Personally, I'm happy with the PVP element is as - in other words, restricted to opt-in areas in the tavern only. I don't feel any urge to play PVP at all (if I wanted to do that, I'd break out the xbox and play Virtua Fighter or something) - but I'm happy for those that do, and I can imagine it as a fun way to let off steam now and again.

I am wholeheartedly against anything that lessens the PVE experience in order to improve PVP balance - and I agree with Wrendd and others who say it can lead to a "never-ending cycle". "Balance" is hard to define and even harded to get right, even for PVE-only play (where each class should at least be able to make a meaningful contribution, which is different from making an equal contribution which is what a lot of PVP players demand.)

My previous MMO of note was Guild Wars, which was designed to support PVE and PVP from the beginning, and even they ended up splitting the abillities (a lot of the newer ones are PVE only)

The only place where I see interesting design space for player-against-player interaction is in the realm of "competitive PVE". This already happens informally (for example, best raid completion times or - less constructively -kill count boasting). I wonder if there is any value to having a "competitive raid" where two or more teams start in different corners of the map, and the first to get to the centre wins? I'd find that far more interesting (and in the spirit of old-school "tournament" modules) than just beating up on other characters. Still not sure it would be good idea even then, but I'd at least be willing to give it a try.

Cheers,

- doug

See, here's the thing though. PvP in DDO isnt broken. It's WAI.

PvP at best is a momentary distraction. People use the pvp pits for many different reasons. Some want to see how their new gear works. Some want to test new spells, some want to test saves and tolerances, some want to see if they are better than other players in the game.

I would say, in DDO, more that any other game, PvP is truely a challenge of skill, strategy and tactics. Why? because in the other games, the playing field is leveled. Its a race for gear, thats about it. Get Item A to stop Item B's effects. In DDO, you know that there are strengths and weakenesses to each class. Its up to you to figure out how to exploit them.

Instead, what happens? People who aren't used to such a system cry foul, saying its broken and needs to be fixed. So instead of focusing on becoming better, they become the Boys Who Cry Wolf. Change this, nerf that, why? because thats how they did it in WoW etc.

So, No, pvp in ddo isnt broken. Its working as intended.

All three quoted for basically saying how I feel. I don't care about PvP. I sure don't want any developer time "wasted" (from my selfish point of view) on it.

I respond to this thread (and some others like it) because I don't want my silence to be mistaken for agreement. I don't want the devs/mods to read threads like this and, because no one objects to the suggestions, assume that the playerbase in general wants more PvP.

It's DDO, which is based on DnD, which is not and never was intended to be player versus player. That's why the games melee and wizard came out. They were for people who wanted to fight one another. DnD was for people who wanted to work together toward a common goal.

So, any changes that can be made that won't affect PvE AT ALL, sure, go ahead. But anything that would "improve" PvP but would change the PvE game - NO, absolutely not. Please no.

[loki_3369]

I give up. I'm apparently too dumb to make my point and this thread will continue to be naive con PvP people saying how horrible PvP is for the game while the also naive pro PvP people saying it is good for the game. I pvp. i enjoy it usually. But it is unimportant in this game. It is not an area of focus the devs should be concentrated on. I fail to remember the person who suggested this, but maybe instead of working on pvp they should release new content, maybe some new content above level 10. New raids above level 10. A lowbie pack with epic difficulty doesn't exactly cut it.

[hityawithastick]

Don't throw out PvP. Don't change it. Ignore it. PvP is fun just the way it is, and there's a certain charm and realism to it. In a real gladiatorial arena, things would work exactly the same way--magicians would dominate sword-wielders, and archers would dominate magicians, and the incredibly powerful, epically geared wizards would walk in and mop up the entire crowd.

[Vellrad]

I love group play, why can't some PVP arenas that are designed for group play be implemented? I think having a king of the hill or capture the flag map available would be awesome fun to get a bunch of guildies to play. It would be PVP but it would be what is described here as the original intent of the game: "group support".

Why people want added team vs team and CTF to game, where it is present already?

[shortdevils]

I don't think pvp should be removed but I don't think pvp should be Improved upon either. If it becomes worth doing then balancing issues become involved but then again sometimes I need something to do at the side. Slayers are incredibly boring and this game doesn't real have anything to keep u busy other than questing.
When I hit the level cap., questing becomes more of a grind. I am doing either for favor, the challenge or loot I don't actually need. So sometimes I just need to pull out and do something casual.
Pvp allows me to do that.
What i do think is that this game needs more "side attractions" like the events but one that's always running. Something to do when not questing.

[lazyninja81]

Don't throw out PvP. Don't change it. Ignore it. PvP is fun just the way it is, and there's a certain charm and realism to it. In a real gladiatorial arena, things would work exactly the same way--magicians would dominate sword-wielders, and archers would dominate magicians, and the incredibly powerful, epically geared wizards would walk in and mop up the entire crowd.

I like the logic.

+1

[Geodude07]

As much as I love the concept of pvp and everything that comes with it, this game would be harmed greatly by a more intensive application of it.

Forum posts like "X spell is way too powerful!" would spam the threads in fact it would be like this "X item/effect/spell/weapon/class/epic item is too good nerf bat it!" and we would lose sight of what a lot of people play DDO for...Yes people do like PVP and yes PVP can be great in many games and will add to the experience provided there are rewards and goodies to be had for it as well as rational reasons and set ups for it.

A game like Warhammer online is well suited for pvp and there are maps and objectives and goodies for battle. Here people want to quest with one another, work together to take down dungeons and so forth. Many players love that aspect of the game, they love new adventures, gear and classes and races to explore.The game was designed for those players and that idea.

The classes are balanced against all the baddies outside, but not against each other. We do not have crazy saves and hp like monsters in harder quests, and that is why you will get fried by casters etc. To balance it would be to have to re-write an entire game and to hear constant cries of OP! OP! OP! from the masses

This is not the game for someone looking for a pvp heavy or even a competent pvp system for this reason


People also fear PVP as it can attract some of the more annoying users, such as those that only make nerfing threads (remember/still play WoW?) and probably many other flavors of people that wouldnt fit into the rest of the picture that is DDO. I personally dont mind those threads (simply ignore them or read them for a chuckle) but a lot of people dont want to see that. A lot of people dont want to see the hotheaded 14 year old who curses you out for beating them, chases you around and spams you with tells or sends annoying mail to you and tarnishes your name ( or even guild) on the forums or reports you out of spite

As it stands PVP is what it should be, a simple little area where you can hit each other and goof around knowing it does not reflect your skill, knowing that it gives nothing and knowing that it is there just for that side purpose.

[sgtcatfish]

As someone who reads these pvp posts simply for entertainment value I have come to a realization let me share.

I figure that threads similar to this by H4x and a few others are an attempt to fulfill their need for pvp since they cant find it in game (without cries for NERFS cause I lost) they come to the forums and start pvp related threads to fulfill their pvp needs. THEY ARE PVP'ING YOU ON THE FORUMS SINCE THEY CANT DO IT IN GAME. People like H4x make posts like these to get a reaction from others its the same reason they camp the arenas to kill lowbies it gives them self satisfaction, stop feeding into it post your opposition or your support and move on.

Along with most of the DDO community i came here for the lack of pvp its true, now i have seen a few good system of pvp implemented such as in Star War Galaxies witch I played for 3+years (before CU of course), I also like like the pvp system here in DDO as others have said its WAI, its an after thought, the game alone stands on it own merit without pandering to the e-peen waver crowd and I never want it to change.

So while I agree that pvp can be fun at times if those times are based on the players want and not forced upon the player as in so many MMO's out there. I feel DDO has done it in the best way possible for the way the game is meant to be witch is and has always been (since based off table top D@D) PLAYER VS ENVIRONMENT.

[BitkaCK2]

Y'know... I was just saying to myself, "Self, there aren't enough threads about improving PvP in DDO."

oi

On another note, this:

Don't throw out PvP. Don't change it. Ignore it. PvP is fun just the way it is, and there's a certain charm and realism to it. In a real gladiatorial arena, things would work exactly the same way--magicians would dominate sword-wielders, and archers would dominate magicians, and the incredibly powerful, epically geared wizards would walk in and mop up the entire crowd.

pretty much describes the rock, scissors, paper that is PvP.

Rock will always brag about destroying scissors while screaming to nerf paper. Scissors will always brag about destroying paper while screaming to nerf rock. Paper will always brag about destroying rock while screaming to nerf scissors. See? It's already perfectly balanced. Everyone gets someone to destroy and someone to complain about. Perfect already, working as intended, nothing to see... move along.

bitkaCK2

[JollySwagMan]

PVP is not important in DDO.

As others have mentioned, the classes are not designed with PVP in mind.

H4X's threads have helped to promote a stereotype of PVP players who whine incessantly.

The presumption seems to be that if threads such as 'Nerf Slayer Arrows'/'Nerf Drow SR' etc. did not meet vehement opposition, that the developers would implement these adjustments, to the detriment of the PVE game.

That's fair enough in my books - I don't want my PVE experience to suffer for the sake of PVP balancing.


However, that does not rule out competitive PVE/PVP developments entirely. I noticed one suggestion in particular that I think would be beneficial to PVP in DDO:

IMO, if you are going to separate it by level, instead of trying to do it per instance per tavern, just make it so only certain levels can PvP in certain Taverns. For example;

Wayward Lobster 1-5
Phoenix 6-10
Drowning Sorrows 11-15
Bogwater Tavern 16-20

This would be of no impact to the PVE game, and would help to eliminate the "Oh this guy has so many buffs I can't see what level they are" element of PVP that exists currently.

I believe another poster suggested quests where two groups of players would compete towards a common goal. (I would guess with some sort of loot/xp incentive for the group that wins.) That sounds interesting.

I'd also be interested to see some PVP maps where traps could be deployed, pockets can be picked, golems could be controlled via remote stations, battles aboard ships/airships, explosive barrels/cows/halflings being flung by catapults etc. But that's a bit much really, and I would much prefer bugfixes to the development of such content.

So, the only suggestion to PVP that I'd really stick with would be that of splitting up the level groups (doing this by Tavern seems like a good way). This doesn't account for gear/buffs/other advantages that some players may have even with a level restriction, and it's no guarantee of good sportsmanship. But it would help a little, and would be a minimal adjustment.

[Devonian]

On the thread of cooperative, sided pvp, I posted a suggestion on that very matter a ways back.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251018

For the consideration of those interested.

[hityawithastick]

Rock will always brag about destroying scissors while screaming to nerf paper. Scissors will always brag about destroying paper while screaming to nerf rock. Paper will always brag about destroying rock while screaming to nerf scissors. See? It's already perfectly balanced. Everyone gets someone to destroy and someone to complain about. Perfect already, working as intended, nothing to see... move along.

This. This times infinity. LISTEN TO THIS POST DEVS.