Why PVP is important

[HumanRogue]

I don't PvP very much at all anymore (Haven't even been in the pit for several months) but can say that there are times when I have gone into the pit and had a lot of fun. I even built one of my characters so that he would excel in PvP (And wasn't too shabby at PvE either). I've seen some people here vehemently against PvP because they don't enjoy it and 'don't want any dev time used' on it. It's just for fun and some people enjoy it. If you don't find it fun, you don't have to do it. You don't get any loot, any experience, etc.

However, you can ask yourself, why do you do PvE? It's just for fun too. What do you really get out of gearing out your character? It's just for fun too. Why do people care about cosmetic changes to character's appearances? It's just for fun too. I, for one, don't care what my characters look like (In fact I attempt to make them as ugly as I can), so using the attitude of people that 'don't want any dev time used' on something would apply to cosmetic changes for me, but honestly, if even a small amout of the population likes it, I have no problem with it.

My 2cp.

[HumanRogue]

I wish they totally erase pvp in DDo:
Remove tavern bravl areas,
that way threads like this would stop appearing.
DDo isn´t about pvp, never will be about pvp > and basicly its there by mistake.

I'm glad you know what DDO is all about. And here I thought DDO was about having fun...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Could you elaborate? I read that thread and still have the same opinion.

PvP attracts the type of player who, according to self admissions made in that thread, have been suspended twice recently for in game misconduct.

That thread was one of many where he suggested changing things, in ways that would be harmful to the PvE game, and which basically amounted to "nerf anything that hurts me in PvP". He demonstrates well that you can't adjust the game for PvP without damaging PvE because just about every suggestion he has would damage PvE.

[Rodasch]

I personally don't care about PvP as long as nothing in the PvE game is "balanced" around PvP whining about x class pwns their face unfairly because of ability y...If you can't beat a certain class, don't pvp them, or build that class to go pvp with if you think they're that awesomesauce. Don't nerf a class in PvE just because you can't beat them.

[loki_3369]

ZOMGZOR HOW DARE YOU SPEAK OF PVP1!1!!!!11!!!!1! PVP SHOULDN'T EXIST1!!!1!!!11!!!!!!1! I SUCK AT PVP SO I'M GOING TO GET ANGRY!!!!111! RAWRZOR!1!!!!11

In all seriousness though, PvP is usually more interesting than grinding the same repetitive quests over and over, imo anyway. Though pvp is broken in DDO, it's still relatively fun for many people and some changes to it can be done without any gigantic impacts on pve.

I don't agree with all the posts screaming "NERF THIS!!!!" or "NERF THAT!!1!" but i also dont support the posts that people make in the forums that make it seem like hell just froze over because someone mentioned a pvp related incident. I don't understand why people opposed to pvp make the posts in the pvp section about how they hate reading threads like this. Pretty sure you don't HAVE to read them (except maybe the recent thread list...) And yes i realize it takes away from the devs focus on pve to work on pvp, but has their focus been that great the past several updates? From the amount of bugs left unfixed and the introduction of many new bugs I'd think not.
While you dont gain anything (virtually?) material from pvp it isn't exactly worthless to many people. You can learn to fight better in pve from pvp in some instances, you can test things, you can pass time in between timers, and many other things my gimped mind is forgetting >.<

Most of the pvpers I've come into contact with haven't been the sort that go on flame wars, and I think it's the immature kids who do go on 5 hour rant sessions that give the pvp community such a bad name. (And there is a very easy solution for flamers.... /squelch add <Insert troll here>)
Profiling ftw?

Just doesn't seem logical to be completely submissive of the pvp community in fear of distracting the devs. Not saying i want DDO to turn into a pvp based game at all because I don't. Personally, I'd rather they mostly keep it the way it is, since they'd most likely find a way to introduce some new bugs Some level seperated instances might be a nice addition though, as would a pvp chat so the people in general dont have to read the crybabies of pvp. Also don't see how additions such as this would be a make or break factor for the immature pvp addicts to choose DDO over wow or eve. There's going to be Bad's everywhere. While pvp may attract more epeen measurer's, it can also attract nonBads. Unlimited squelch lists may be a nice addition too....

I don't know just a thought.
Anyway, each to his own.

[toughguyjoe]

I really do enjoy the idea that some people said this: "You could go and grind repetitive dungeons all day, but at least in PVP the game CHANGES based on fighting different people all the time!"


So here's the major differences:

Monsters: In PvE the monsters have bad AI and run amok and have inflated hit points. In PvP the monsters are all fighters and barbs and the like and the player characters are Arcane archers wizards and sorcerers. PvP has the added bonus that very few people will have more than 1k HP.

Benefits: In PvE you gain gear for your character, platinum to buy supplies guild renown to build up your guild and turbine points through favor, along with the regular benefits of various favor. In PvP you get a swift fireball to the face, a smack on the noggin from a random melee, danced by someone who thinks they're Uber or a slayer arrow up your kiester.

Wait, that sounds like the only difference is that in PvE you actually GAIN something for your toon( and more broadly for your account) Interesting. Why is PvP important again? I mean if its just a group of powered up goons (all players in PvE, Certain classes(specs) in PvP) wiping out another group of less cool goons only with no in game benefit minus a milimeter on your epeen then really, tell me WHY is it important?

[loki_3369]

@Toughguyjoe....

A) There's only so much grinding one can take.

B) Many people participate in pvp to have fun, same reason people participate in pve.

C) After you get all those rewards, what do you plan on doing with them? Grind some more?

We all know how grindtastic DDO is. I don't see why you care if pvp offers any rewards to those who do it. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It's really that simple. And btw, not all pvpers are the epeen measuring trolls you seem to think they are. Pvp isn't always negative as you make it out to be.

[dogonovo]

Simply put, if the direction of the game goes towards PvP or balance towards it, I will not subscribe to it anymore. For the same money one spends in DDO one can play one of the many PvP-centered games around the market.

As for the balance that people talk about, go look at the already mentioned games that focus on it, and their forums. Some have been around for way longer than DDO, and are still working towards the so-called balance.

There is already PvP in DDO, I dont mind it. Make it a significant part of the game, and I move out.

/not signed

[hecate355]

I have my theory, about all these pvp threads.

Until now and hopefully in near future as well, DDO has been unique, not directly because of lack of pvp. what made DDO unique was its depth of pve, same depth would NOT been there without heavy emphasis on it at development.

After it went f2p, yes Turbine bought quite some years longer life for DDO due to increasing popularity. However nothing comes without a price, as in the past DDO had players who were interested in online game with d&d mechanics and setup.

Dont take my statement wrong, but being more popular also means all these new players who came from other mmo-s intentionally or not intentionally are trying to change ddo into one of those. Mark my words, pvp will not be the only things people ask for. Im quite sure soon we will have whole bucket, including mounts, player housing yada yada, where is my lion to ride in cerulean hills??? yawn what for?

There is nothing wrong in game to be a niche product.

[hecate355]

I am NOT against pvp, i just dont see it happening in ddo, if i wanna pvp for some, i find another game for it.

[Uska]

Pvp is only important to some and not all games need pvp to be viable there are plenty of games that offer it already.

[toughguyjoe]

@Toughguyjoe....

A) There's only so much grinding one can take.

B) Many people participate in pvp to have fun, same reason people participate in pve.

C) After you get all those rewards, what do you plan on doing with them? Grind some more?

We all know how grindtastic DDO is. I don't see why you care if pvp offers any rewards to those who do it. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It's really that simple. And btw, not all pvpers are the epeen measuring trolls you seem to think they are. Pvp isn't always negative as you make it out to be.

A) Theres only so much jump in, run about shooting fireballs at each other that one can take.

B) Many people participate in PvE for the Fun, AND the People! In PvP Its all about "The Fun!" Which is fine until you realize that in PvP especially, the thousand rotten apples do spoil all the bunches, no matter how many bunches you keep buying, spoil spoil spoil...

C) After you get all those rewards, I dunno I guess instead of use them to run new content you TR! Which admittedly is like going from Grey to Gray.

One problem is that I only made biased comparisons and then asked why PvP is important, and I don't think anyone has answered that question, though if you wanted to ask "Why is PvP not important" this thread becomes informative and well written

[Wrendd]

Welcome to the red box club OP.

I sincerley hope that the OP does not get a lot of neg rep for his post. He was polite, open to discussion, and asking a genuine question that he was curious about. IMO, that does NOT deserve neg rep.

I know that it is a loaded topic, and I agree with the majority of posters here, that DDO is not really about PvP and that an increased focus on PvP would be a poor choice for the devs. I am not, have not, and presumeably never will be, a fan of PvP. I have no problem with PvP being included in an MMO, but I think that attempting to balance a primarily PvE game to a PvP standard is a recipe for disaster.

I used to play City of Heroes/Villians. When CoH first came out it was much like DDO, no PvP, everything was cooperative. When they announced that they were working on the expansion "City of Villians" and that CoV would allow PvP between heroes and villians in specific zones made specifically for PvP, a lot of people were very happy. They also added arenas in many zones of CoH to allow heroes to fight each other and adjust many parameters of the fights. It was quite popular for quite a while. When CoV finally came out, PvP was also very popular for a while, but there were many balance issues.

It was quite common for the devs to change an ability/power to be more balanced in PvP and that caused an unexpected "nerf" to be applied to PvE, and if they made a (mostly) positive change to a PvE power then the PvP crowd would complain that the change imbalanced PvP... it was a never ending cycle. Eventually the PvP craze lessend to the point that most of the PvP zones sit unused, with maybe 2-3 people total in the PvP zones.

They even went so far to make changes to classes, gear and powers that ONLY changed when you were in a PvP zone. So "fire blast" might do x+ lvl+ modifiers damage to a mob, but only did x+1/2lvl +2/3modifiers to a player. (that was a gross generalization, but serves to demonstrate my point). They also changed many crowd control durations and effectiveness in PvP. It was a tacit admission that PvP and PvE are vastly different aspects of an MMO that could not be effectively balanced unless it was built into the game from the ground up. And even then it is difficult and not necessarily desired.

More recently, CoX (the combined version) has introduced co-op zones, where the heroes and villians set aside their differences to comabt a common foe. Co-op zones are VERY popular. So popular that the devs have added more and expanded the game to allow "side switching" for the heroes to become villians and vice versa. They realized that the best part of their MMO was working together, not fighting each other.

DDO is in much the same situation as CoH was. The needs of a PvP game are vastly different from the needs of a PvE game. As another poster above me has said, the classes of D&D (and DDO) are NOT balanced against each other, nor should they be (talking "broad strokes" here). A party should be balanced against the expected dangers to be found within a quest or adventure. The PvE game is about a group of people facing monsters and challenges that they must work together to overcome. The PvP game is (mostly) about one character defeating one other character, usually as quickly as possible. A rogue with 400 hp and horrible saves and AC, that could do 1000 points of damage in one sneak attack, every time, with no chance to miss (but could only do that attack once every 2 minutes), would win almost every fight in PvP. That same rogue would probably find himself at a serious disadvantage in a quest that featured 100 low hp mobs that swarmed him.


tl;dr:

Again, I do not mind that PvP is available in the taverns in DDO, but I am opposed to increasing the PvP experience in DDO because I am afraid that it would cause a backlash into the PvE game. DDO has never been billed as a PvP game and I think it should stay that way.

[Vellrad]

I don't think PvP should be really expanded very much, but I also don't think it should be removed from game.
Its fun if you know when, how and how much use it. For me it was always only a time filler if group taken years to fill, or way to check something in my build, or how debuffs stacks. I remember having 2 or 3 fun games at PvP, but it was with my friends 1vs1 deathmatch, not this * tavern brawling.
(Putting party member to sleep in PvP was quite fun IMO )

[dougnugget]

Personally, I'm happy with the PVP element is as - in other words, restricted to opt-in areas in the tavern only. I don't feel any urge to play PVP at all (if I wanted to do that, I'd break out the xbox and play Virtua Fighter or something) - but I'm happy for those that do, and I can imagine it as a fun way to let off steam now and again.

I am wholeheartedly against anything that lessens the PVE experience in order to improve PVP balance - and I agree with Wrendd and others who say it can lead to a "never-ending cycle". "Balance" is hard to define and even harded to get right, even for PVE-only play (where each class should at least be able to make a meaningful contribution, which is different from making an equal contribution which is what a lot of PVP players demand.)

My previous MMO of note was Guild Wars, which was designed to support PVE and PVP from the beginning, and even they ended up splitting the abillities (a lot of the newer ones are PVE only)

The only place where I see interesting design space for player-against-player interaction is in the realm of "competitive PVE". This already happens informally (for example, best raid completion times or - less constructively -kill count boasting). I wonder if there is any value to having a "competitive raid" where two or more teams start in different corners of the map, and the first to get to the centre wins? I'd find that far more interesting (and in the spirit of old-school "tournament" modules) than just beating up on other characters. Still not sure it would be good idea even then, but I'd at least be willing to give it a try.

Cheers,

- doug

[RequiemVampie]

Nerf that snail!!!

[Deaths_ward]

After playing for a year now, my interest in the game has changed. Now PVP has become much more interesting, because the items that I get for my PVP character have a real tangible effect on my gameplay. Sure, being able to do quests faster is nice, but there is much more interaction with other players when PVP'ing. Facing the same dumbed down mobs in the same quests gets boring, whereas PVP is always exciting and constantly changes based on who you are up against. The interactions within PVP build upon each other and create a whole different type of gameplay that really opened my eyes up to a part of the game that I originally ignored.

I think that having a healthy balance of PVP and PVE is important to an MMO and I hope that the dev's see the need to spend a bit of time improving PVP for the segment of the community that is interested in it.

Obviously it's so important you had to make a mule account just to avoid the massive neg rep you knew you'd acquire posting about it, and avoid anyone associating your actual UN with this post. Kudos for not metaphorically having a pair.
I mean, really User1.....how much more obvious could you get with that.

[DDO_User1]

Instead I look at it like this, a similarly older argument, but a very valid one. I do NOT want this game to turn into a cesspool like WoW. When I check the fora, I see that most of the people supporting PvP are generally guys like h4x and such, who seem to only want to "balance" the characters, and would through that affect PvE play.

I see your point, but it may be inaccurate. We simply don't know how much of the playerbase fits into that category. There could very well be an outspoken minority who are like that, with a larger group of people who enjoy PVP but are not as vocal about it. The rest of your argument stems from this potentially faulty assumption.

I scanned through the rest of the thread, but the central argument against improving PVP (adding in a PVP ranking system, splitting out tavern brawling rooms into level-specific areas with opt-in/out, etc) is that it would attract the wrong crowd.

What is ironic about this discussion is that many of the people arguing against PVP in this thread are the ones being rude and obnoxious, not the other way around. There is an "unsavory element" in both groups of people, and it has nothing to do with the content of the game.

[Carelicoa]

I see your point, but it may be inaccurate. We simply don't know how much of the playerbase fits into that category. There could very well be an outspoken minority who are like that, with a larger group of people who enjoy PVP but are not as vocal about it. The rest of your argument stems from this potentially faulty assumption.

I scanned through the rest of the thread, but the central argument against improving PVP (adding in a PVP ranking system, splitting out tavern brawling rooms into level-specific areas with opt-in/out, etc) is that it would attract the wrong crowd.

What is ironic about this discussion is that many of the people arguing against PVP in this thread are the ones being rude and obnoxious, not the other way around. There is an "unsavory element" in both groups of people, and it has nothing to do with the content of the game.

I admit that some of the anti-PvP crowd can be downright rude and mean-spirited, as can the PvP crowd. That does nothing to foster civil discussion, so I try to avoid it. Yes, PvP would attract the wrong crowd, one which is not so easily avoidable as is on the fora. Here one can simply ignore the threads that annoy them, but it is very annoying to be questing around in the harbor and have a bunch of PvP kids squawking at each other in the Lobster. If PvP became a big part of the game and brought in more of those, it would really make questing there at certain times untenable and the ruckus would be hard to avoid. On top of that, it would make actual questing very difficult because of how the game itself would be altered. I grouped once with a guy whose toon was build to level just for PvP. We did a Shan-To-Kor run and he got wiped hard against an ogre. The rest of the quest he was complaining and whining about how hard things were, how ueber1337 he was in the taverns, and how this game was so stupid for making the monsters so powerful. This was against an ogre in STK on hard, not exactly a powerhouse of a monster. It continued for nearly fifteen minutes until the star-holder booted him for being a pain. I know not every person who finds their joy in PvP is like that, but there are enough of them to make me take pause when adding a larger element of PvP is considered. I do think divvying it up by levels would be helpful to some, but I cannot support actually expanding PvP anymore than I could adding mounts, etc.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I sincerley hope that the OP does not get a lot of neg rep for his post. He was polite, open to discussion, and asking a genuine question that he was curious about. IMO, that does NOT deserve neg rep.

I agree. I don't share his opinion but the OP was clear and polite and he opened reasoned discussion. I gave him pos rep myself for his approach. You will be happy to know at this point he has 2 green dots so people didn't react badly.