Question about CC Virtuoso

[Lasulie]

Would a Virtuoso bard that wants to mostly do CC need a high Charisma and Spell focus for higher DC spells or is Enthrall enough ?

[bartosy]

You can use both to compliment eachother..

like first enthrall for -2 will saves and then throw a discoball or suggestion or whatever enchantment spells you wanna use on your target.


however..

With just the first tier available a spell specced virt was actually viable and i enjoyed playing one but with the pre 2 available, the spellsinger II just offers to much to make a cc specced virt worth it anymore. So if you wanna make a cc bard i suggest you go spellsinger for all the nice goodies you can offer your party.

if you really wanna go this road and want to have strong spell dc later on, yes you will have to get your charisma as high as possible. the more charisma the harder your spells are to resist.

[Lasulie]

Yeah but would enthrall be enough CC allowing me to free feats and stat pts for extra DPS?

[Gorbadoc]

We just had this discussion within the last week or two. I'm feeling too grumpy to look it up right now, but I'm sure you or someone else can find it without an inordinate amount of looking.

In short,

CC spells require high charisma and many spell casting feats, just like Bartosy said. Spellsinger2 does indeed offer really nice perks to such a build.

Virtuoso, meanwhile, is what it is; it gives you amazing CC songs, even if you have a charisma of 8 (don't start with a charisma of 8, by the way). You can go melee spec or spell casting spec from there, as you please. Melee tends to be more useful, since CC spells are a bit redundant with CC songs. I'm sure there's a bard out there somewhere, though, who really loves CC songs, healing songs, and CC spells, in that order, so he plays a caster virtuoso.

[haclya]

you don't need so much cha I stared 12 cha I got 16 now +2 tome + 2 class enchantment and if I get good +6 item get good cha score.
I have no problem stunning any mobs whit my songs.

[Lasulie]

We just had this discussion within the last week or two. I'm feeling too grumpy to look it up right now, but I'm sure you or someone else can find it without an inordinate amount of looking.

In short,

CC spells require high charisma and many spell casting feats, just like Bartosy said. Spellsinger2 does indeed offer really nice perks to such a build.

Virtuoso, meanwhile, is what it is; it gives you amazing CC songs, even if you have a charisma of 8 (don't start with a charisma of 8, by the way). You can go melee spec or spell casting spec from there, as you please. Melee tends to be more useful, since CC spells are a bit redundant with CC songs. I'm sure there's a bard out there somewhere, though, who really loves CC songs, healing songs, and CC spells, in that order, so he plays a caster virtuoso.

So there's no reason to stay pure with a virtuoso since you can max perform anyway?

[BoBoDaClown]

So there's no reason to stay pure with a virtuoso since you can max perform anyway?

Inspire Courage gets its last bump at 20.

[Gorbadoc]

Yeah, 'no reason' is a gross exaggeration. Many players find the benefits of splashing 2-4 levels outweigh the benefits of those last 2-4 bard levels, though. It depends on what you want the build to do and (believe it or not) personal play style. I swear, this forum needs a stickied primer on the pros and cons of splashing your bard.

Anyway, I know GOOD explanations are in the first couple pages of threads on the bard forum. I'll give some off-the-cuff remarks to get you started in case you just want to play your bard already:

• You certainly won't gimp your bard by staying pure. You'll learn new spells when they're actually powerful, and, as Bobo said, you'll get that last point of +attack/+damage at 20. Learning spells (and advancing bard abilities) levels earlier matters if you spend most of your time leveling. If you're the type to get to level 20 quickly and farm, less so.
• Other benefits of levels 17-20 center around bard abilities (surprise surprise): Stronger Spell Pen for when you Irresistible Dance (less important to a Virtuoso, since you get a really-hard-to-resist dance song); stronger Greater Dispel Magic; more uses of Bardic Music (how fast you can burn through them depends on play style). If you're like me, you'll benefit from all this. If you play like a fighter, probably not so much.
• Caster builds should always stay pure, while melee builds can be perfectly functional at melee staying pure.
• Common splashes are for some combination of Evasion and to squeeze out a little more melee DPS. Either way, read up on it before you splash. No sense splashing only to discover that you haven't increased party DPS or that your play style doesn't make good use of Evasion.

[jsaving]

The most important contribution most bards make to their party is a maxed-out inspire courage song. By going virt rather than WC, the party loses +2 damage with every swing, which may not seem like much but adds up fast when the party is slugging a purple-name several hundred times a minute.

The good news is that chanters often splash, which means they miss the final improvement to inspire courage at 20th level. If you don't splash, you'll be able to pocket that improvement and offer parties an inspire courage song that's almost as good as a typical warchanter's.

That's why most people advise staying pure on a virt. On the other hand, not everybody is planning on running raids or even making it to endgame. If you're simply looking to max your song CC and personal weapon DPS for solo/casual play, a splashed virt has a lot to offer -- usually fighter for the bonus feats but possibly rogue for traps and survivability.

[Gorbadoc]

The most important contribution most bards make to their party is a maxed-out inspire courage song.

Eh, that's only true if most bards are either bad at the class or running large raids.

Take a bard who is actually good. There are three possibilities:

1) Inspire Courage is his most important contribution, because he's running Vision of Destruction with two favored souls, an arcane, a rogue, and several other DPSers, so the DPS contribution from Inspire Courage is huge, and DPS is extremely important to killing the chicken without having to burn lots of consumables.

2) The party would have trouble if EITHER the bard's Inspire Courage were removed OR if one of the bard's other contributions (such as his melee DPS) were removed. Both are apparently essential to success, so it would be disingenuous to say that either is the more important contribution.

3) Some other bard function is WAY more important than Inspire Courage. Put a good bard in some quests, and every single room will be Fascinated before the rest of the party enters it. What's better: enemies that die slightly faster, or enemies that don't attack? Of course, when I pull that stunt, I still use Inspire Courage, because Inspire Courage is freaking awesome.

[Aashrym]

Would a Virtuoso bard that wants to mostly do CC need a high Charisma and Spell focus for higher DC spells or is Enthrall enough ?

I would recommend going STR/CON and lower CHA and relying on the songs for CC myself. Going high CHA and CC focus feats cuts into your melee ability and your SP pool would be reduced using CC spells cutting into what you have available for healing.

If CC is the only major contribution you have to the party you might find yourself looking at limited options finding groups. There isn't always a need for CC. There is almost always a need for melee and healing.

[Lasulie]

How would this perform?
Ranged attacker that wouldn't rely on sneak attack as much as a pure rogue would because I get extra damage from my weaker but still decent song and other buffs. CC, here i'm hoping enthrallment is not channeled like fascinate is but if it is I guess I could rely more on Song of Capering. I would probably get even more damage out of sneak attack than a rogue because a rogue would only get SA damage on the first hit while soloing while I would get SA damage on every hit against a CCed monster.
When grouped I would do less DPS than a pure a rogue I'm guessing -10d6 +3 from enhancements with SA but I would apply +5dmg/+4hit on every hit against anything and from any range, attack 25% faster and run 40% faster, + 50% avoidance to the whole group. AND I get to CC effectively and provide FoM + spot heals.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 7 Rogue \ 12 Bard) 
Hit Points: 236
Spell Points: 367 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            16                    20
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence         17                    24
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    21
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         1                    24
Diplomacy             5                    15
Disable Device        7                    34
Haggle                5                    11
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  7                    26
Intimidate            1                     2
Jump                  3                     9
Listen               -1                     3
Move Silently         7                    18
Open Lock             7                    29
Perform               n/a                  30
Repair                3                     9
Search                7                    32
Spot                  3                    24
Swim                 -1                     2
Tumble                7                    14
Use Magic Device      5                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Human Bonus) Precise Shot


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Reload


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song IV
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Music of Makers
Enhancement: Bard Music of the Dead
Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso I
Enhancement: Bard Virtuoso II
Enhancement: Rogue Sonic Trap Lore I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Intelligence I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Mechanic I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock I
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock II
Enhancement: Improved Perform I
Enhancement: Improved Perform II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Please don't comment on how melee would do more damage, I know it would, but if you have inputs on how to be more effective while still using a repeater please share your comments :P

[Gorbadoc]

Watch those Inspire Courage numbers, Grasshopper. Greater Heroism grants +4 attack (morale); Good Hope grants +2 attack and +2 damage. Both can be cast by any arcane caster, and neither stacks with Inspire Courage. Your net gain with 12 bard levels, then, is just +3/+0 damage/attack. Oh, and, if you don't have a caster, you can buy and UMD Greater Heroism scrolls. I don't remember about Good Hope. How many additional damage dice did you say you could get by going pure rogue?

[Lasulie]

yeah but thats taking into account that there is an arcane caster. +3 damage over every hit of the party on any possible monster and CC might addup to more than 33 average SA damage.

[Aashrym]

Watch those Inspire Courage numbers, Grasshopper. Greater Heroism grants +4 attack (morale); Good Hope grants +2 attack and +2 damage. Both can be cast by any arcane caster, and neither stacks with Inspire Courage. Your net gain with 12 bard levels, then, is just +3/+0 damage/attack. Oh, and, if you don't have a caster, you can buy and UMD Greater Heroism scrolls. I don't remember about Good Hope. How many additional damage dice did you say you could get by going pure rogue?

Good hope is bard only.

Greater heroism and heroism are wiz/sorc/bard. A lot of ppl still have good hope cookies they use tho.

I'll take a closer look at the build when I'm not at work and see if I have any advice anyone missed by then.

[Gorbadoc]

What, like, if for every one sneak attack you make, your teammates make 11 regular attacks? :-P

I know, I know, SA isn't always applicable. Same with GH, though there at least I do think scrolls make an adequate "Oh, man, we REALLY need it for this quest, so we'll put up with the annoyance of scrolls" option. And when you actually do have an arcane, hey, there ya go.

You'd have to REALLY love your CC songs for the build to be worth it. I would not recommend this build to someone who hadn't already played a bard at least to level 10-ish (by then you should have some idea how well you like using Fascinate, though you won't have seen the content where monsters teleport on top of you and eat you alive when they spot you sneaking around).

[Lasulie]

Do you know how enthrall work ? If its like fascinate (Channeled) or a more standard CC (cast and forget) ?

[Gorbadoc]

Do you know how enthrall work ? If its like fascinate (Channeled) or a more standard CC (cast and forget) ?

Short Answer:
Yes, Enthrallment works like Fascinate; it just applies the two "Enthralled" statuses instead of the "Fascinated" status on its victims.

Longer Answer, With Tangent:
Unless Fascinate has changed while I've been away these last couple months, it's not channeled. At least, not as I understand the term.

• You hit the button or hotkey;
• the music starts playing, and at the same time any nearby monsters will "hear a noise" at your location;
• the ability casts for a while, doing nothing;
• near the end of the sound clip, the ability checks its AoE for targets, applicable targets attempt their saving throws, and any failing the save are Fascinated.

It's just a long casting time; when I think 'channeling', I think of an effect that ceases when you stop actively performing a channeling action. I don't think DDO has any such abilities. Now, 'Channel' is in this case a video game jargon term; its meaning isn't exactly set by a long social tradition. In a very real sense, it's up to us to decide what 'channeling' ought to mean in this context.