expectations of a rogue for epics

[neclon]

Hey all. Before I get to 20 and go clicking join on any epic pugs (I'm 19 holding back a lvl til my friend catches up), I want to make sure I have the expectations covered. I had my experience failing traps at lvl 10 because I assumed I wouldnt need to shop for gear since I was a rogue and had my skill maxed, and don't feel like doing that on epics.

Aside from the people who just don't want a rogue in the group at all (please don't hijack the thread, if you dont want rogues in your LFM I'll see that if you remove them from the grp list... usually... sometimes I see grps cuz of my 1 fighter): what are your expectations of a rogue joining a epic LFM? I have mostly gear that can be bought other than dragontouched (no greensteel yet).

I have the more obvious things I'm working with: keeping my HP up (at just over 300 now), good DD, Search, Spot, heavy fort, subtle stabbing, carrying scrolls to UMD such as raise dead if the healer bites it and I'm still up. Pit/devil beaters (metalline of pure good).

[PopeJual]

The best advice that I can give is to follow directions once you get into a quest and try not to die too often.

It's okay if you don't contribute very much to the party since you're new to Epics as long as the people in the group knew that going in and as long as you don't actively drag the party down.

If there's a big swarm of bad guys, don't stand in the middle of it.

When you see blue rings around something or stars spinning around something's head, beat on it.

The biggest change from normal quests to Epic is just knowing that the monsters hit harder, have a gajillion HP and are immune to instant-kill effects. That requires a change in tactics more than an upgrade in gear (although the upgrade in gear is also worthwhile).

[Royalties]

Looks like you have everything you need to be a solid rogue, the only thing I would suggest is working on your HP a bit but seeing as you're a rogue that's sort of a challenge unless you nerfed some of your other stats for con. I usually love rogues in my parties though, they're awesome dps and usually a well played rogue doesn't need more than 300ish hit points if they're hitting diplomacy and utilizing their sneak attacks. Why don't you just try joining an epic run and see what the expectations are? Partycrashers is a good one for you, or even Big Top and The Snitch.

[bendover]

Biggest thing is to stay with the other melees. Follow around the one that is putting any mobs in auto-crit. Examples would be a monk stunning everything. A fighter stunning stuff. Someone using TWF triple earth weapons. The more mobs you are critting the more often the more dps you're going to do the quickier and easier it makes the quest.

Also 100% fort and 400+ hp for your rogue please!

[AMDarkwolf]

400 hp on rog with no greensteel is a BIG thing to ask.

350 hp on rog is plenty for the most part. hes not tanking and hes not eating spells first hand.

[bendover]

400 hp on rog with no greensteel is a BIG thing to ask.

350 hp on rog is plenty for the most part. hes not tanking and hes not eating spells first hand.

Every extra HP he can get is better. When you've got mobs hitting for 50-80 points of damage per hit that leaves him at about 6 hits (at 350) and he's done. In epics with someone stunning a STR based rogue is going to out dps the rest of the field and if that mob gets free he's turning on the rogue.

[AMDarkwolf]

yes, true, but myself playing one of those str based rogs, when the mob turns on you, you learn to put that mob on the other side of a melee, find a way to avoid the dmg, and put your tools to use elsewhere.

low hp is a rog's setback, we live with that, learn to work around it, even in epics.

Having 800 hp but not much else will die just the same, maybe in 10 hits instead of 5, but u still die. Its a group effort(more so with epics than any other diff setting) and you learn when to apply your skills and when to rely on another.

[bendover]

yes, true, but myself playing one of those str based rogs, when the mob turns on you, you learn to put that mob on the other side of a melee, find a way to avoid the dmg, and put your tools to use elsewhere.

low hp is a rog's setback, we live with that, learn to work around it, even in epics.

Having 800 hp but not much else will die just the same, maybe in 10 hits instead of 5, but u still die. Its a group effort(more so with epics than any other diff setting) and you learn when to apply your skills and when to rely on another.

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that my 477 hp Rogue will die more then that 850 hp Barbarian .

[Royalties]

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that my 477 hp Rogue will die more then that 850 hp Barbarian .

Don't suck and you won't die. You're not suppose to be hit as a rogue. Diplomacy + radience and aggro management, learn to use it. The only reason you should die is because you have no crowd control or you're not a good rogue.

[Consumer]

Every extra HP he can get is better. When you've got mobs hitting for 50-80 points of damage per hit that leaves him at about 6 hits (at 350) and he's done. In epics with someone stunning a STR based rogue is going to out dps the rest of the field and if that mob gets free he's turning on the rogue.

Incorrect, due to the fact that SA is not multiplied on a crit, in a group with stunning blow or hold monster the Rogue will in fact be doing the least DPS out of the melee toons. The Rogue also has lower to hit with picks (no proficiency and only +4 max (Halfling) from enhancements)further reducing his advantage when a mob isn't auto crit.

[bendover]

Don't suck and you won't die. You're not suppose to be hit as a rogue. Diplomacy + radience and aggro management, learn to use it. The only reason you should die is because you have no crowd control or you're not a good rogue.

Wow, I run alot of epic devils assault with my rogue. And all it takes is a couple of devils not being controlled with a couple of cleaves and t hey take people out. And for your information my rogue has radiance, and earth grab guards. Don't come here insulting someone you have no idea who you're talking too.

[bendover]

Incorrect, due to the fact that SA is not multiplied on a crit, in a group with stunning blow or hold monster the Rogue will in fact be doing the least DPS out of the melee toons. The Rogue also has lower to hit with picks (no proficiency and only +4 max (Halfling) from enhancements)further reducing his advantage when a mob isn't auto crit.

Disagree. It really depends on your group and your rogue. A str based rogue with heavy picks on an auto-crit mob will probably only be behind a Frenzied Beserker.

[Royalties]

Wow, I run alot of epic devils assault with my rogue. And all it takes is a couple of devils not being controlled with a couple of cleaves and t hey take people out. And for your information my rogue has radiance, and earth grab guards. Don't come here insulting someone you have no idea who you're talking too.

Learn to use diplomacy?

[bendover]

Learn to use diplomacy?

Absolutely not. Agro management in end game is the most important you can possibly have. I'm not going to diplo cleaving devils onto the rest of the party that's stupid. I invested into intimidate for moments when someone else cannot provide agro management. Again before you come in here insulting people you should know who and what you're talking about.

[Royalties]

Absolutely not. Agro management in end game is the most important you can possibly have. I'm not going to diplo cleaving devils onto the rest of the party that's stupid. I invested into intimidate for moments when someone else cannot provide agro management. Again before you come in here insulting people you should know who and what you're talking about.

Oh i get it, so the two seconds that you have aggro is really going to save the party. Gosh why didn't I think of that. *Smacks forehead*

[Consumer]

Disagree. It really depends on your group and your rogue. A str based rogue with heavy picks on an auto-crit mob will probably only be behind a Frenzied Beserker.

It's not a matter of disagree, it's a matter of fact.

Autocrit DPS is determined by 3 main things.

Your attack speed, your crit multiplier and your damage that is multipliable on a crit.

Of course you naively picked out the FB as being the best even with its low attack speed and limited source of multipliable damage.

A Rogue attack speed although good with haste boost IV is still only equal to that of a 12/6/2. However because almost all of a Rogues damage is coming from sneak attacks not much damage is multiplied by the *4 multiplier.

Take a str based Halfling Rogue (1375.5 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage



However once you start including the max DPS Half Orc Rogue things do get closer as the Rogue now has 3 PA, 6 more str and extra haste boosts. Going HO just compounds the to hit problem with picks though as there is no more Halfling to hit bonuses and -3 from HO PA.

[bendover]

It's not a matter of disagree, it's a matter of fact.

Autocrit DPS is determined by 3 main things.

Your attack speed, your crit multiplier and your damage that is multipliable on a crit.

Of course you naively picked out the FB as being the best even with its low attack speed and limited source of multipliable damage.

A Rogue attack speed although good with haste boost IV is still only equal to that of a 12/6/2. However because almost all of a Rogues damage is coming from sneak attacks not much damage is multiplied by the *4 multiplier.

Take a str based Halfling Rogue (1375.5 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage



However once you start including the max DPS Half Orc Rogue things do get closer as the Rogue now has 3 PA, 6 more str and extra haste boosts. Going HO just compounds the to hit problem with picks though as there is no more Halfling to hit bonuses and -3 from HO PA.

Good job on the numbers breakdown. Thank you.

[Royalties]

477 hp is not good enough for any front line melee.

I have tanked on epics with my fvs with 452 hit points in ToD, VoD, Epic Chronoscope and I've never wished I had more HP. As a matter of fact the Valiance build has 322 hit points and he solo'ed VoD, there's absolutely no reason you should -require- more HP.

[BossOfEarth]

Hey all. Before I get to 20 and go clicking join on any epic pugs (I'm 19 holding back a lvl til my friend catches up), I want to make sure I have the expectations covered. I had my experience failing traps at lvl 10 because I assumed I wouldnt need to shop for gear since I was a rogue and had my skill maxed, and don't feel like doing that on epics.

I dunno what the DCs are, but rogues are welcome in Epic! VoN1 because *someone* has to get the password and the key, and hey, why not let the stealthy rogue do it and save everyone else the trouble. The fights are nothing to worry about. Idealy you'll be auto-critting helpless foes but even on a bare bones run the mobs will be aggroed exclusively on your firewaller, unless you *intentionaly* try to showboat by stealing aggro.

Lock pickers are desireable for Epic! VoN2 because they can sneak past the giant and unlock the chest which skips a long dull fight. Disarming the traps is just a luxury for groups that want to run the gauntlet for extra chests. There are a couple of times where you'll need a battleworthy rogue for VoN2. I dunno what the threshold is for rogues but I do ok with 400 HP and evasion. I think the most I've ever been hit for in VoN2 is 320 hp from a trap (excluding the 1499 I took from standing on the Ramp of Dooooom, but everyone will tell you not to stand there, so you don't have to worry about it.)

That said, I'd also like to know what DCs to expect on Epic!.

Edit: Oh, and bring a few raise dead clickies / scrolls. Usualy everything goes fine, but every once in a while everyone dies except for the dude with evasion. At that moment, it's cool to have some raises.

[neclon]

So HP can always improve. I'm planning a +45 gs item and I've got more hp coming from my next level. That comes after a radiance weap. I also plan on having a ToD ring be +9con if I understand how those work correctly.

I won't expect my dps to be better than a geared char designed purely for dps in autocrit situations but hopefully it's enough of a help on bosses and non-autocrit situations to be a good addition and my other skills can at least weigh me in for 1 slot in a group =). I'll start epics when I get 20 but like I said I dont want any xp hits on guildy who is still lvling up and has limited time.

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage

That's before multipliers right? Do fighters generally go kensei in heavy picks? I would think they were khopesh specced. Anyway both these chars are way out of my league. I don't have anything but a GS blank right now. To add my 2 cents to rogue dps - in ideal situations I'm not surprised if fighters and barbs have way more potential dps. I think the appeal to rogue dps is that even with non-optimal weapons and gear they get a lot of their damage handed to them for free as long as they don't have aggro and they can do some utility stuff in addition to being a not-to-distant 2nd in dps (like some wands, scrolls, lockpicking, sneaking).