expectations of a rogue for epics

[CaptainCameo]

Hey all. Before I get to 20 and go clicking join on any epic pugs (I'm 19 holding back a lvl til my friend catches up), I want to make sure I have the expectations covered. I had my experience failing traps at lvl 10 because I assumed I wouldnt need to shop for gear since I was a rogue and had my skill maxed, and don't feel like doing that on epics.

Aside from the people who just don't want a rogue in the group at all (please don't hijack the thread, if you dont want rogues in your LFM I'll see that if you remove them from the grp list... usually... sometimes I see grps cuz of my 1 fighter): what are your expectations of a rogue joining a epic LFM? I have mostly gear that can be bought other than dragontouched (no greensteel yet).

I have the more obvious things I'm working with: keeping my HP up (at just over 300 now), good DD, Search, Spot, heavy fort, subtle stabbing, carrying scrolls to UMD such as raise dead if the healer bites it and I'm still up. Pit/devil beaters (metalline of pure good).

I was worried about my first epic but it went smoothly. There are lots of shortcuts people use in epics. Some you would never think of. So you have to pay attention.

I was worried about the traps because I was told you'd need a search dc of 60. You do not. I get by easily with 50 or around there. Just keep some +15 search goggles and make sure the caster or yourself has GH for those difficult ones.

A disable device skill of 60 can take care of most any trap easily. Keep in mind that the bonus from tools and the bonus from disable device items stack. If you're not an int based rogue, you might have trouble with some traps. Again, GH is a life saver.

I've been surviving easily with 350hp. You just have to position yourself and think about where to stand while fighting. Know when to run too. There's a spot in the tide turns quest that my groups almost wipe at every time. Someone usually has to grab a stone or two then run to the shrine.

There are some areas in the game where you can use traps to your advantage. Do not be afraid to use them. Luring enemies through epic traps is surprisingly effective.

If you have the UMD for it, don't be afraid of using summon monster in epics either. Summoned monsters get epic warded so it can be a useful distraction, especially when you need the enemies to stand in the traps a bit longer.

[AMDarkwolf]

I was worried about my first epic but it went smoothly. There are lots of shortcuts people use in epics. Some you would never think of. So you have to pay attention.

I was worried about the traps because I was told you'd need a search dc of 60. You do not. I get by easily with 50 or around there. Just keep some +15 search goggles and make sure the caster or yourself has GH for those difficult ones.

A disable device skill of 60 can take care of most any trap easily. Keep in mind that the bonus from tools and the bonus from disable device items stack. If you're not an int based rogue, you might have trouble with some traps. Again, GH is a life saver.

I've been surviving easily with 350hp. You just have to position yourself and think about where to stand while fighting. Know when to run too. There's a spot in the tide turns quest that my groups almost wipe at every time. Someone usually has to grab a stone or two then run to the shrine.

There are some areas in the game where you can use traps to your advantage. Do not be afraid to use them. Luring enemies through epic traps is surprisingly effective.

If you have the UMD for it, don't be afraid of using summon monster in epics either. Summoned monsters get epic warded so it can be a useful distraction, especially when you need the enemies to stand in the traps a bit longer.

Now this is a helpful post and what was needed. I think you deserve a +1 rep for a 'helpful' post to those just starting epics. (IE Not someone whos fully decked out in epic/gs gear who refuses to accept anyone BUT someone whos TR'ed 9 times and has all the gear ingame for their runs)

[Quikster]

LMAO what? Recalled out of sub(which is raid area, which doesn't scale mobs hp depending on group size...) to make it an easier mob? Really? LOL

Why do you pro-elite fools keep mistaken me for some other person. I am Malicai or Atmadarkwolf. NOBODY else. That(The above) Did not happen, and if it did, it was not me. STOP MISTAKING me for someone else. (Yes this keeps happening, people claiming i do some random silly thing ages ago which I never did...lol)

It absolutely did happen. You were on your monk Malicai I know exactly who you are. Even after I typed in party chat you insisted that everyone recall out because you were going to solo the skelly and then pass an IR if you pulled it.

You died, we went to the hound, and wiped. I stopped joining your groups after that NOT because you insisted on something that was wrong (which coincidentally you did in the hound raid as well) but because you wasted a lot of my time being the last guy to join a full Hound group, which was advertised for Hound, then proceed to mess with the skelly chest.

You can continue to call me all the names you want, but the facts remain.

You can also continue to say that I contribute nothing here, but the fact also remains I did. If you would get off your self righteous holier than thou high horse you would see what I contributed.

Until then go back to playing with the bubblegummers.

[AMDarkwolf]

It absolutely did happen. You were on your monk Malicai I know exactly who you are. Even after I typed in party chat you insisted that everyone recall out because you were going to solo the skelly and then pass an IR if you pulled it.

You died, we went to the hound, and wiped. I stopped joining your groups after that NOT because you insisted on something that was wrong (which coincidentally you did in the hound raid as well) but because you wasted a lot of my time being the last guy to join a full Hound group, which was advertised for Hound, then proceed to mess with the skelly chest.

You can continue to call me all the names you want, but the facts remain.

You can also continue to say that I contribute nothing here, but the fact also remains I did. If you would get off your self righteous holier than thou high horse you would see what I contributed.

Until then go back to playing with the bubblegummers.

Lol well if makin up stories helps u get by....


Anyways, the thread had nothing to do with non rogs, and your "memories"

[pharky]

I fully agree with sirgog's expectations of a rogue for epics. After all, it is just an expectation. Most of the rogues are unable to fulfill those criteria unless they have gear grinded for 1 or 2 months to be fully epic ready. At the same time, achieving as many of those criteria as possible will help the party have a very very smooth run with the least amount of resources used and in the shortest amount of time.

A new group of lv 20s can complete epic Bargain of Blood even if all of them only have 200 hp, but they may die several times in the quest, face the danger of being wiped etc.

A group of vets that are epic ready with 1-2 tier 3 GS and good raid gear can breeze through epic Bargain of Blood without using a shrine, the caster and healer have 3/4 of their mana left at the end and they finish in 1/3 the time.

What do you choose to be?

[neclon]

Cool, this gives me some benchmarks to hit. The fact is I'm sitting on a toon that was not built right. I kept him because he had alot of favor built up and was somewhat salvagable and I want to unlock fvs. I hope to get into enough epics to get 20 tokens for a TR. Then he'll go away. With my current gear + a GS hp item I'll be at 360 hps at lvl 20.

That is with minos, geater false life and a +6 con item. Are there any other non-epic sources of hp I can look for in the mean time (other than TOD ring which I plan on making con+9 for another +20 hps)?

I can hit the search req with GH and DD/lockpick should be good.

Thanks for all the feedback. There was significantly less derailing than I had anticipated, actually . That's just a feature of server boards.

[Quikster]

Cool, this gives me some benchmarks to hit. The fact is I'm sitting on a toon that was not built right. I kept him because he had alot of favor built up and was somewhat salvagable and I want to unlock fvs. I hope to get into enough epics to get 20 tokens for a TR. Then he'll go away. With my current gear + a GS hp item I'll be at 360 hps at lvl 20.

That is with minos, geater false life and a +6 con item. Are there any other non-epic sources of hp I can look for in the mean time (other than TOD ring which I plan on making con+9 for another +20 hps)?

I can hit the search req with GH and DD/lockpick should be good.

Thanks for all the feedback. There was significantly less derailing than I had anticipated, actually . That's just a feature of server boards.

If youre going to tr, I wouldnt invest much into more hitpoints. But if you must you can use a +2 con tome, for 20 more, and yugo favor pot for another 40.

[Geodude07]

Ok... doesn't clear things up much....




But this does. Thank you. +1 for a decent way of explaining it WITHOUT sounding like a pro-elite douchbag ****.

The only one who sounds like a "douchbag" here is you, his statement made sense in context and bringing that kind of attitude to the table in uncalled for...

You essentially said (paraphrasing) "Hey guys I have a char(who is essentially at benchmark) that does fine, everyone saying gear and having more hp is dead wrong and only 3 year old lamers who think they are "pro" need to use that stuff, as long as you are smart like me you can get by"

basically that is a pretty big insult to someone trying to help others out, you sounded arrogant and talked big, while also sounding sour about people wanting you to have "pro" gear or meet a certain requirement. Which at its heart is just a way to keep newer players out of too much trouble and give them a number to shoot for based on what can and will happen in epics.

Which is why he told you (paraphrasing) "look you have two characters at the limit people are talking about, so your statements about having the wrong numbers do not make sense. Thanks for insulting everyone trying to help out too"

clearly you have something against people who are "a little too 'pro'" and thats fine, but running rampant insulting people for just suggesting a benchmark is wrong, and your statements made you sound like the elitist. Go ahead and revise them and you'll see what I mean. I dont mean to inflame your rage or insult you but it is hypocritical to insult everyone for being too elite for asking for minimal reqs while you state you are so amazing that with a little smarts you can break all limits and denounce the need for good gear. Yes you didn't say exactly that, but it was heavily implied.

i do however agree it is better to have a "smart player" than a decked out literal 3 year old, but a smart player WILL have decent gear and WILL listen to people who have run epic quests tons of times.

feel free to neg rep me too if you so desire, but I just hope you apologize to the other guy

PS ive never TR'ed and I havent got insane equips so im not a "pro elite fool" or whatever else, im not sitting on tons of gear either. I experiment, listen and just enjoy my game with my friends. I just hate bad attitudes and insults towards members of the community who are trying to help out.

[RS-Makk]

I was wondering - how are some of you guys getting 475-500hp on a rogue?

[Tanka]

I was wondering - how are some of you guys getting 475-500hp on a rogue?

High Con (14-16 base, depending on other stats), +6 con item, +2 Exceptional Con from various gear, +2 Con tome, GFL (or Superior False Life, in some cases), +45 HP Shroud item, Rage spell, Madstone Rage (x2), +2 Con Yugoloth pot (provides additional 20 HP on top of that for total of 40 HP), Toughness + Enhancements (generally +42-62 HP, depending on race).

It's not too difficult if you dedicate yourself to it, and once you get there, you realize how bad off you had it before.

[RS-Makk]

Thanks.

So do you find that the extra 40hp is worth the 5% melee speed hit (and thus DPS loss) you get from the Yugo pot? (or is there a way to not get that hit?)

[Tanka]

Thanks.

So do you find that the extra 40hp is worth the 5% melee speed hit (and thus DPS loss) you get from the Yugo pot? (or is there a way to not get that hit?)

Depends on what you're fighting, really.

If you find yourself getting notoriously low on HP in ToDs, it's worth it if only so the healers aren't having heart attacks every time you snatch aggro. If not, then they aren't worth it.

[ColsonJade]

Want to be affective in epics. Get a dreamspitter and hit the same mob everyone else is hitting. Doesn't matter what class, if you see blue cirlces, earth graps or stunned stars you help you party out.

[unscythe]

Started 15 con on a human rogue.
+1 con from human versatility enhancement
+2 con tome
+6 con item
So normally around 24 con = +140 hp at 20
+2 con from rage = +20 hp at 20

+45 hp Shroud item
+20 hp herioc Durability
+120 Base Hit Points
+22 hp Toughness
+30 hp Human enhancements
+30 Greater False life
+20 Minos helm- toughness on an item

Total = 447 hit points

I think the hardest piece is the GS item, but you can have 380 hp without rage. So 400 hitpoints with a rage spell.

My pure rogue doesn't have exceptional con of any kind, litany of the dead, Yugo pots, madstone boots ,or Argo favor.

So potentially I can have my rogue have well over 500 hit points, but that 10 hit points would be nice from Argo favor when I get around to it.

I am not counting in the +2 con ship buff either. So in a raid, I normally see around 470 hit points.

I run earthgrab guard on my hp GS item, and wear the epic Mabar cloak for the 5/good dr and the chance to go invis when hit,and freeze guard on my DT. Auto-crit mobs are a rogues best friend,and second best is a hate-tank that can hold aggro.

I would never want to be a frontline with a rogue, 450+ hp is not enough, it is only enough hp for you to make it out of the fray(WHICH is not always the best idea when the healers throw down masses and your not the target).

For epics, I expect to be able to find traps, disable them, and lay down the dps on auto crit mobs.
If you have the assassin 3 Prestige, and the assissin set from Tod, you can be extremely useful. You can sometimes throw down negative levels.

There is also a really funny side note, but Assassin 3 can vorpal epic mobs sometimes. Maybe that has been fixed, but I have seen a few epic mobs vorped(maybe they didnt get the epic ward or something, idk thought it was cool). Super low chance, but the combat log doesnt lie, or seeing an epic mob at 80% hp drop dead.

[BlackPlague]

Quik +1 for being right and pwning as usual.

Ben +1 for pwning as usual.

AM... If that story is true, I find it hard to not believe it, then -1

Query. Noticed something about attack speed vs the blitz a while back, would madstone bringing the (BAB) up to par, simultaniously bring the Attack Speed up to par? Also is there anything (aside from UMD scrolling) that a rogue would not do while madstoned? + more hp for the charts.

[unscythe]

Query. Noticed something about attack speed vs the blitz a while back, would madstone bringing the (BAB) up to par, simultaniously bring the Attack Speed up to par? Also is there anything (aside from UMD scrolling) that a rogue would not do while madstoned? + more hp for the charts.

If it works like barb rage, then you may not be able to search/disable device.

[RS-Makk]

Thanks for the breakdown, that was helpful.

I run earthgrab guard on my hp GS item, and wear the epic Mabar cloak for the 5/good dr and the chance to go invis when hit,and freeze guard on my DT. Auto-crit mobs are a rogues best friend,and second best is a hate-tank that can hold aggro.
.

If I may, what's your hp item with the mabar cloak setup? I myself struggle with where to put the HP item (if not cloak) and would welcome recommendations. My current HP item is the cloak, and I would like to be able to throw on the mabar cloak on epics for the same reasons you said (really the DR and the invis, the always blur'ed is also a bonus in case for some odd reason I dont have blur but I usually UMD a 10th level blur wand and I am good). I want to craft a 2nd hp item now that I have the cloak - but not sure where to put it since most spots taken:

Head - minos, Rings/Belt/Neck - shintao set, ravager set, Boots - Madstone, Gloves - Spectral (for the to hit and as a dex item), Goggles - tharnes (or +6 Cha skills item if I am UMD'ing).

That really only leaves Bracers in a DPS focus situation (on non-epics and where I want to be on AC mode - bracers are the +8 bracers), although I have been using the Tharnes there for threat reduction and also just got the Levik's and was thinking that healing amp will be nice. That said, I'm grinding for the DT healing amp tempest rune and when I get that it frees that up.

Thanks!

[Quikster]

Thanks for the breakdown, that was helpful.




If I may, what's your hp item with the mabar cloak setup? I myself struggle with where to put the HP item (if not cloak) and would welcome recommendations. My current HP item is the cloak, and I would like to be able to throw on the mabar cloak on epics for the same reasons you said (really the DR and the invis, the always blur'ed is also a bonus in case for some odd reason I dont have blur but I usually UMD a 10th level blur wand and I am good). I want to craft a 2nd hp item now that I have the cloak - but not sure where to put it since most spots taken:

Head - minos, Rings/Belt/Neck - shintao set, ravager set, Boots - Madstone, Gloves - Spectral (for the to hit and as a dex item), Goggles - tharnes (or +6 Cha skills item if I am UMD'ing).

That really only leaves Bracers in a DPS focus situation (on non-epics and where I want to be on AC mode - bracers are the +8 bracers), although I have been using the Tharnes there for threat reduction and also just got the Levik's and was thinking that healing amp will be nice. That said, I'm grinding for the DT healing amp tempest rune and when I get that it frees that up.

Thanks!

You could throw it on the boots, and just use the boots as a clickie and/or till proc, then swap back.

[Spoprockel]

Won't he miss those extra hp in ToD?

I know this is about epic, but i wouldn't want to take off my GS hp item on my rogue, in any content

[Quikster]

Won't he miss those extra hp in ToD?

I know this is about epic, but i wouldn't want to take off my GS hp item on my rogue, in any content

No because he already has a hp item on his cloak. So he'll miss his cloak in tod.

Besides, its not really that important. 1 part of 1 raid he wont have either the cloak or a hitpoint item. Also that raid is prolly not a huge priority to him as he seems to have two sets from there already, so really he would only be running it for +4 tomes. Add all that up, and the fact that having hitpoints in a raid where a tank should be holding agro, really doesnt convince me that the boots arent viable. Its not like hes going to be able to handle the agro from horoth if he got it with or without the hitpoint item, that leaves sully and the orthons to worry about. Unless hes running on elite, it really shouldnt be an issue.