New Ice Storm... wow!

[Chaosprism]

Well I think the changes have to do with the upcoming class (druids), ice storm is one of their spells.

So maybe extending the duration of the effect is something only druids will be able to do with their enhancements.

Weather spells in general are the domain of druids, wizards/sorcs can do them but druids get the motherload of options with them. Sun and plant based spells are the other domain of druids.
Which is also why you've seen plant as a favoured enemy. Theres few plant creatures yet the vinestalkers in the fens are one of them so far.


If new spells come for druids, rangers will likely also get some of these added to their spell lists, and clerics/fvs's will also possibly get a few. Even wiz/sorcs may get specific ones.

That's my guess anyway.

[FluffyCalico]

Well I think the changes have to do with the upcoming class (druids), ice storm is one of their spells.

So maybe extending the duration of the effect is something only druids will be able to do with their enhancements.

.

Druids have healing spells, as such people will invite them to heal just like they do cleric and fvs. And before you go but a druid can...so can a cleric and fvs but people don't invite them for that.

[Legendary_Agent]

perhaps you should try to get informed better before you open your mouth.

it's spell damage. it bypasses all dr. it doesn't matter that it's bludgeoning, any more than it matters that blade barrier is considered slashing.

and i'm sorry to say, but if you're dishing out 50 with your scorching rays, you're doing something wrong. i have a level 15 sorcerer right now (he was 20, but then i TR'd) who deals better damage than your capped sorcerer. with empower, maximise, the full enhancement line, and no capstone, i am dealing more damage with my scorching ray than you. i can only presume you're using crappy gear, because i have nothing fancier than a superior inferno V clicky and a greater lore item (it's arcane lore, but it's no better than greater fire lore for these purposes) on when i throw my scorching rays, and that's nothing you couldn't get easily from the AH. you're not getting those numbers? well then, you're doing something wrong, because i get them very consistently.

And im also sorry to tell u that u should reat my post better as i stated what maximize deals, and if ure using both empower and maximize to deal damage with a scorching ray then lol, u should reconsider ur build cause it doesnt sound so good.

Also sorry to tell u theres no such thing as bludgeoning critical or bludgeoning amplifier so u will deal alot less damage than a firewall, the best u can hope on bludgeoning is 3-18+maximize +50% item (4-27)+maximize(9-54). Awsome! youve wasted 41-50 mana for 9-54dmg every 2 seconds, as a sorcerer this means nothing, as a wizard this might be usefull vs portals and nothing else.

PS: it says bludgeoning damage not untyped damage, im gonna test it right now vs a portal and give info.

[sirgog]

I understand your point and in fact I agree with everyone re: extend, and I'd pointo ut that if its not going to have extend, Ice Storm can have better damage scaling because it will be so much worse on DPM, and DPM is often far more important than DPS (any fight over 40 seconds you don't want to cast anything but your best damage:mana converter).

On the other hand, I don't think they want to make arcanes regular, reliable sources of raid dps that compete with melee and others, for a lot of the reasons listed: when arcanes could do that, it was a big part of what mdae them disproportionately dominant on DDO (see gianthold/orchard, even desert times). There are so many advantages to being an arcane (better elemental protection, better defenses than most characters due to stoneskin displacement, less damage taken and more mobility permitted, generally better selfhealing, etc). There has to be something in the game they don't excel at that keeps their numbers proportionate and forces them to work with others. It's killing bosses.

I'm not so fussed as to whether or not they can *compete* (i.e. approach 80-100% of melee DPS), but I would like them to be able to sustain an amount of damage that *contributes* noticeably.

With so much of endgame centering around boss fights, it's a pretty glaring weakness for a class to be unable to usefully contribute to any boss with over 100k hp (6-person) or 200k hp (raid). Against a 350k HP regenerating dragon, a Sorc in epic VON6 is just a bard that doesn't have the buffs or personal melee capacity; against two 350k HP bosses, a Sorc in elite ToD part 3 is useful solely as a healbot (and for minor debuffs), and even against a pair of 200k and 150k hp bosses, one with possible selfhealing (ToD normal part 3) a sorc can't contribute through the whole fight.

That's why I feel something should be done to provide arcanes some more damage capacity in raids and epics. I'm not fussed as to whether the solution is found in Icestorm, or in a buffed-to-the-hilt Melf's Acid Arrow variant, or using a PrE to allow Firewall to deal partial damage to fire-immune foes, or something different altogether. I just wanted to clarify to Genasi that if the intention of the Icestorm change was to make casters a somewhat worthwhile damage source in endgame content, this change will fail to achieve that goal.


One unrelated point: Has anyone tested how powerful the new Icestorm is at low to mid level? My gut feeling is that it will be broken beyond belief - it deals 50% more damage than a level 7 Firewall...

[Geonis]

I'm not so fussed as to whether or not they can *compete* (i.e. approach 80-100% of melee DPS), but I would like them to be able to sustain an amount of damage that *contributes* noticeably.

With so much of endgame centering around boss fights, it's a pretty glaring weakness for a class to be unable to usefully contribute to any boss with over 100k hp (6-person) or 200k hp (raid). Against a 350k HP regenerating dragon, a Sorc in epic VON6 is just a bard that doesn't have the buffs or personal melee capacity; against two 350k HP bosses, a Sorc in elite ToD part 3 is useful solely as a healbot (and for minor debuffs), and even against a pair of 200k and 150k hp bosses, one with possible selfhealing (ToD normal part 3) a sorc can't contribute through the whole fight.

That's why I feel something should be done to provide arcanes some more damage capacity in raids and epics. I'm not fussed as to whether the solution is found in Icestorm, or in a buffed-to-the-hilt Melf's Acid Arrow variant, or using a PrE to allow Firewall to deal partial damage to fire-immune foes, or something different altogether. I just wanted to clarify to Genasi that if the intention of the Icestorm change was to make casters a somewhat worthwhile damage source in endgame content, this change will fail to achieve that goal.


One unrelated point: Has anyone tested how powerful the new Icestorm is at low to mid level? My gut feeling is that it will be broken beyond belief - it deals 50% more damage than a level 7 Firewall...

I agree with your point here, however the portion in bold is not something Devs need to worry about. Ice Storm will be either overpowered at low levels and useful at high levels, or useful at low levels and a waste of a spell slot at high levels.

[Junts]

I'm not so fussed as to whether or not they can *compete* (i.e. approach 80-100% of melee DPS), but I would like them to be able to sustain an amount of damage that *contributes* noticeably.

With so much of endgame centering around boss fights, it's a pretty glaring weakness for a class to be unable to usefully contribute to any boss with over 100k hp (6-person) or 200k hp (raid). Against a 350k HP regenerating dragon, a Sorc in epic VON6 is just a bard that doesn't have the buffs or personal melee capacity; against two 350k HP bosses, a Sorc in elite ToD part 3 is useful solely as a healbot (and for minor debuffs), and even against a pair of 200k and 150k hp bosses, one with possible selfhealing (ToD normal part 3) a sorc can't contribute through the whole fight.

That's why I feel something should be done to provide arcanes some more damage capacity in raids and epics. I'm not fussed as to whether the solution is found in Icestorm, or in a buffed-to-the-hilt Melf's Acid Arrow variant, or using a PrE to allow Firewall to deal partial damage to fire-immune foes, or something different altogether. I just wanted to clarify to Genasi that if the intention of the Icestorm change was to make casters a somewhat worthwhile damage source in endgame content, this change will fail to achieve that goal.


One unrelated point: Has anyone tested how powerful the new Icestorm is at low to mid level? My gut feeling is that it will be broken beyond belief - it deals 50% more damage than a level 7 Firewall...

It deals 75% of the damage of a level 7 firewall; firewall goes deleras>shadow series>wizking, you know.

I think you're wrong in that casters contribute to all those fights (dragon the least) and are important for all those raids. I don't do a single hp of damage to Suulomades or Horoth or even try, but am still essential to completing our elite w/ suulo runs because controlling Orthons without killing them is extremely important in a fight that's going to last -that- long. If people break off for Orthons, that is a 25m fight even with the strongest dps in the game, and that's way too much time for Horoth to get lucky on your tank multiple times, etc.

While I'd agree that large numbers of casters generally don't scale well as well, that's generally ok as large numbers of healbot clerics or non-dps bards also scale poorly (eg having 3 is low returns compared to 1 or 2). The 2nd one is still very, very useful to all those situations, and the diminishing returns only really begin with the 3rd arcane in those situations. While the 2nd caster isn't that useful for Velah (the 1st can kite renders and save the party lots of grief quite easily), it is very useful for the bases to have available more than one caster's worth of CC.

IMO, raids are generally designed in a way where if the encounter will be so long that arcanes will not be effective damage sources, they get plenty of other stuff to do; even nuking in shroud elite is acceptably useful in 4 and, while not great, ok in 5 when maintaining important damage-prevention casting. As difficulties go down nuking gets better, and even in a guild where we nearly always just stand up in one spot and kill Lailat in 3m, caster spam nuking is a useful source of dps and groups where we bring 5-6 casters are just as fast as groups that bring zero.

No, you dont wan to do elite tod or shroud or dragon with 7 arcanes, but there's no more reason for them to balance you to do that as there is a reason for them to balance you to do it with 7 12 str radiant servants.

[RoelHeeswijk]

No, you dont wan to do elite tod or shroud or dragon with 7 arcanes, but there's no more reason for them to balance you to do that as there is a reason for them to balance you to do it with 7 12 str radiant servants.

indeed. as long as a party of:

1 barbarian, 1 paladin, 1 rogue, 1 fighter, 1 ranger, 1 monk
1 cleric 1 favored soul
1 wizard 1 sorcerer
and 1 bard

can do the highest level raid on elite, the dev's are doing something right

(yeah, the 12th player forgot his boots, but you still succeed because your party is so well-balanced)

[Jaid314]

And im also sorry to tell u that u should reat my post better as i stated what maximize deals, and if ure using both empower and maximize to deal damage with a scorching ray then lol, u should reconsider ur build cause it doesnt sound so good.

Also sorry to tell u theres no such thing as bludgeoning critical or bludgeoning amplifier so u will deal alot less damage than a firewall, the best u can hope on bludgeoning is 3-18+maximize +50% item (4-27)+maximize(9-54). Awsome! youve wasted 41-50 mana for 9-54dmg every 2 seconds, as a sorcerer this means nothing, as a wizard this might be usefull vs portals and nothing else.

PS: it says bludgeoning damage not untyped damage, im gonna test it right now vs a portal and give info.

*shrug* most people use both if they're going to use either at cap. if you're going to deal damage, and you have both (and most non-bard arcanes seem to have both) you may as well use them. if i'm going to go to the trouble of actually dealing damage, then i'm bloody well going to make the damage i deal as high as i reasonably can. i am considering replacing empower with another feat, though the vast majority of people i've talked to about it think it's too good a feat to give up. (seriously, i've had people suggest i drop toughness from my drow sorc, lose extend, or TR twice as a wizard and drop 2 spell penetration feats instead of losing empower. when people think "well, you could go farm over 6 million exp" is a better option than losing empower, i'm inclined to think people consider it pretty danged important... though that still may not stop me from dropping it from my sorc).

but hey, if you want i'll see about throwing a few scorching rays without empower (and without capstone), i'm pretty sure i'll deal more than 50 per ray though.

and if you had actually read, you would also know that anything that boosts cold damage boosts the whole spell. people have already done the tests, we already have the information, and the only reason you don't already know is that you opened your mouth before you opened your mind.

[Legendary_Agent]

*shrug* most people use both if they're going to use either at cap. if you're going to deal damage, and you have both (and most non-bard arcanes seem to have both) you may as well use them. if i'm going to go to the trouble of actually dealing damage, then i'm bloody well going to make the damage i deal as high as i reasonably can. i am considering replacing empower with another feat, though the vast majority of people i've talked to about it think it's too good a feat to give up. (seriously, i've had people suggest i drop toughness from my drow sorc, lose extend, or TR twice as a wizard and drop 2 spell penetration feats instead of losing empower. when people think "well, you could go farm over 6 million exp" is a better option than losing empower, i'm inclined to think people consider it pretty danged important... though that still may not stop me from dropping it from my sorc).

but hey, if you want i'll see about throwing a few scorching rays without empower (and without capstone), i'm pretty sure i'll deal more than 50 per ray though.

and if you had actually read, you would also know that anything that boosts cold damage boosts the whole spell. people have already done the tests, we already have the information, and the only reason you don't already know is that you opened your mouth before you opened your mind.

sure thing bro, go ahead and throw without empower and maximize and deal more than around 50dmg per ray.

And if u havent already read i posted not once but twice 1 result with maximizing and another without, ure just to desperate to proove me wrong u try to stick to your small unexisting point.

As a sorcerer having maximize and empower is a laughable waste of feat, and i do believe ur posts are highly ironic, in 3 its like you need to take that example, ive tried the spell several times and no critical damage from the bludgeoning, i will try it again.

[Jaid314]

sure thing bro, go ahead and throw without empower and maximize and deal more than around 50dmg per ray.

And if u havent already read i posted not once but twice 1 result with maximizing and another without, ure just to desperate to proove me wrong u try to stick to your small unexisting point.

As a sorcerer having maximize and empower is a laughable waste of feat, and i do believe ur posts are highly ironic, in 3 its like you need to take that example, ive tried the spell several times and no critical damage from the bludgeoning, i will try it again.

k, let me spell this out for you:

if you are not using the feats that make damaging spells anything less than gimp, then your spells are going to be gimp. period.

for this reason, i find that there are far more sorcerers who DO use both maximise and empower at cap than there are sorcerers who don't, just like you will find far more barbarians who do use power attack than there are barbarians who don't use it at cap.

regardless, you're not worth talking to. i have better things to do with my time than deal with people who complain that their spells do crappy damage when they don't use the resources available to make their spells do non-crappy damage. it's as bad as listening to the people who whine about how their damage-focused sorcerer can't compete with crowd-control specialised wizards. no kidding, your spells suck? maybe it's because you chose for your spells to suck instead of investing in making them worthwhile. i guess for those who plan on running around with crappy gear and no investment in improving their damaging spells, damaging spells will certainly suck, i can't argue that point. if you're determined to gimp yourself to prove your point that ice storm isn't dealing enough damage, well, have fun.

thankfully, i haven't found that to be the way most sorcerers are built.

[Nyvn]

Also sorry to tell u theres no such thing as bludgeoning critical or bludgeoning amplifier so u will deal alot less damage than a firewall, the best u can hope on bludgeoning is 3-18+maximize +50% item (4-27)+maximize(9-54). Awsome! youve wasted 41-50 mana for 9-54dmg every 2 seconds, as a sorcerer this means nothing, as a wizard this might be usefull vs portals and nothing else.

PS: it says bludgeoning damage not untyped damage, im gonna test it right now vs a portal and give info.

Did Elite Sins, never actually managed this before, I suck I know. 0 pots, 18 mins.

Combo of web and ice storm for trash, kiting.

I love this spell now...super fun.

Double crit:


Crit on trash


My biggest bludgeon crit


EDIT: I was seeing a LOT of crits, it just chews mobs up even on Elite Amrath. 1 maybe 2 Ice Storms for a bunch of mobs.

@ Legendary_Agent I know reading all the way through a thread is boring but people have already shown that the bludgeoning damage is boosted and can crit, see the screenshots.

Edit: it also shows it breaking DR since devils have DR good or silver, and the bludgeoning portion of the spell is doing full damage.

[Legendary_Agent]

@ Legendary_Agent I know reading all the way through a thread is boring but people have already shown that the bludgeoning damage is boosted and can crit, see the screenshots.

Edit: it also shows it breaking DR since devils have DR good or silver, and the bludgeoning portion of the spell is doing full damage.

just finished testing them myself, yep you were right, bludgeoning damage can get critical and its not bludgeoning damage at all, its untyped damage nothing breaks it DR i just tested it on a portal, it criticaled it and did normal damage.

Sorry about that this game has alot of things in their mechanics which are total bollocks, guess i have to try each one of them everytime i want to confirm it wether or not it says fire... ice... whatever.

[Trillea]

(yeah, the 12th player forgot his boots, but you still succeed because your party is so well-balanced)

This post is evidence why we need druids NOW! We need to fill this 12th spot! ;-)

[Junts]

just finished testing them myself, yep you were right, bludgeoning damage can get critical and its not bludgeoning damage at all, its untyped damage nothing breaks it DR i just tested it on a portal, it criticaled it and did normal damage.

Sorry about that this game has alot of things in their mechanics which are total bollocks, guess i have to try each one of them everytime i want to confirm it wether or not it says fire... ice... whatever.

Damage reduction doesn't apply to spells that deal physical damage; see cleric blade barrier.

Damage reduction only applies to physical strikes.

[Kaldais]

just finished testing them myself, yep you were right, bludgeoning damage can get critical and its not bludgeoning damage at all, its untyped damage nothing breaks it DR i just tested it on a portal, it criticaled it and did normal damage.

Sorry about that this game has alot of things in their mechanics which are total bollocks, guess i have to try each one of them everytime i want to confirm it wether or not it says fire... ice... whatever.

Let me spell this out for you again.
Damage Resistance in DnD does not stop spell damage, it only work against physical damage type.

DR will not apply to any damage that is from a spell, spell-like source.

thank you move along.

[RoelHeeswijk]

Let me spell this out for you again.
Damage Resistance in DnD does not stop spell damage, it only work against physical damage type.

DR will not apply to any damage that is from a spell, spell-like source.

thank you move along.

Well, I think we can all agree that giving spell damage a PHYSICAL type like bludgeoning doesn't make any sense and confuses people, as you can see in this thread.

So Genasi and other devs, take note. The rest can move along.

[MrWizard]

yea, but can it kill golems?

[hityawithastick]

PS: it says bludgeoning damage not untyped damage, im gonna test it right now vs a portal and give info.

*I'm

Also: Ice storm works on portals even in U7.

[Kralael]

(though for consistency purpose, fix extend. but I'm sure you will).

...

To answer a few questions that have come up since I last posted- the current version of Ice Storm we want to test won't have Extend

So I don,t think we'll get a decent spell then

[Seliana]

The current version of Ice Storm we want to test won't have Extend

Why?

I would love to hear the dev reasoning on making class abilities and feats not work when they logically should.

There should not be a single spell with a duration in DDO that extend doesn't apply to. The very concept of the metamagic extend is that you can make spells with duration last longer. Statements like this devalue the feat slot on casters who are already hurting compared to other classes in raids. Why intentionally not allow us to use extend on some spells? It cant be a balance concern because its already been stated the damage is going to be nerfed down to the same or possibly even less then firewalls damage output.

I just want to know why Turbine intentionally goes out of its way to make Metamagics not work on half the spells in game. Things like empower and maximize not applying to all spells that use dice rolls to determine outcome makes no sense. Things like extend not applying because Turbine wants it that way makes no sense.

Statements like this makes me wonder why I should purchase Turbine points in the future, or even why I play a caster when Turbine clearly wants their endgame dps to be completely meaningless.