New Ice Storm... wow!

[Cartheron]

I posted what Ice Storm was actually doing back on page 3.

In short it was gaining 1 damage to Ice and 1 damage to Bludgeon per caster level. Wall of Fire gets 1 damage per caster level so Ice Storm was getting twice the scaling.

So why not give it the same scaling as Wall of Fire because fixed damage spells (Incendiary Cloud, Acid Fog etc) are a joke.

ie 1 Ice damage per TWO caster levels
+ 1 Bludgeon damage per TWO caster levels

That gives it the exact same 1 per caster level as Wall of Fire.

If you are going to spend time and effort on this spell, then change it once and make it useful then spend the rest of your "spell development time" on fixing the rest rather than having a second and third pass and making Ice Storm work.

All the current fixed damage (persistent) spells are bad, we ALL know that so please lets not bother with spending time on making a new unscaling persistent AoE spell. Surely it's plainly obvious that any spell that doesn't scale is either overpowered at low levels or useless at high levels.

I'm sure Ice Storm will be awesome at level 7 (or 8 for Sorcs) when we get it, but we don't stay 7 forever and end up at 20. Since we don't get anything new at high levels it has to scale to remain useful.

I think its an excelent suggestion. It would then deal about 135 bludgeon and about 110 ice damage at cap, with full ench, max, emp and sup freeze (tested numbers with Lamannia lev 10 wizard). Great to use on fire immune mobs, considerable choice for non-fire immune mobs (fw will be still better thanks to kiting technique). and not as powerful as +1dmg/caster level. I would leave it non-extendable in this situation.

[Seliana]

Truth is, the spell is not supposed to be doing that extra damage. As Recared mentions here, the tooltip information does not match the amount of damage being done; the spell is not functioning as intended. It's doing about twice the intended amount of damage. Don't worry, we'll be keeping it persistent as it currently is, but we'll be fixing the damage accordingly.

I'd be interested in hearing how people will feel about the spell's viability once the damage is reduced. We still want it to be a competitive option when compared to Wall of Fire.

How about Turbine focuses less on making it competitive with Wall of Fire and more on making persistent dps spells competitive with melee damage output instead. Yknow... that whole class balance thing... The whole reason casters are treated like buff bots in raids? If anything should change its that Wall of Fire should be brought up to Ice Storms current damage output now that crit spells got completely nerfed vs epic elemental resistances, and extend metamagic should be applied to Ice Storm as well. Then Turbine should add a persistent acid and electric variation as well with the same damage output and duration.

Its downright silly that a Sorcerer gets far less HP, Armor choices, Special class features, Feats, Skill Points, Saves, and also has less sustainable raid dps then a Melee.

Why is Turbine always looking for more ways to nerf caster dps or keep it low? Unless these changes are all just made to boost Turbine's store SP pot purchases. That's the only reason for this change I can think of given the state of casters in game, that or they just like it when casters suck.

[Maegin]

But, does it kill golems?

[Maegin]

How about Turbine focuses less on making it competitive with Wall of Fire and more on making persistent dps spells competitive with melee damage output instead. Yknow... that whole class balance thing... The whole reason casters are treated like buff bots in raids? If anything should change its that Wall of Fire should be brought up to Ice Storms current damage output now that crit spells got completely nerfed vs epic elemental resistances, and extend metamagic should be applied to Ice Storm as well. Then Turbine should add a persistent acid and electric variation as well with the same damage output and duration.

Its downright silly that a Sorcerer gets far less HP, Armor choices, Special class features, Feats, Skill Points, Saves, and also has less sustainable raid dps then a Melee.

Why is Turbine always looking for more ways to nerf caster dps or keep it low? Unless these changes are all just made to boost Turbine's store SP pot purchases. That's the only reason for this change I can think of given the state of casters in game, that or they just like it when casters suck.

As for you...

I remember a time when casters were the dps and melee were the instakill. How jacked up was that? Need I remind you of when Mod(?) vale/shroud was out and a "finger"banger build was the best of the best? God forbid they learned their lesson from gianthold/desert with WoF. Would you like to return to those days?

[Burninator]

But, does it kill golems?

I think the original answer was "not really" as you would run out of SP casting it before anything died.

Then U8 hit Lamaland and it became a resounding YES, golems get owned!

I think the current stage is we aren't really sure, but if it's back to original damage then the answer would be "eventually" as it lasts longer.

[Kirlian]

Truth is, the spell is not supposed to be doing that extra damage. As Recared mentions here, the tooltip information does not match the amount of damage being done; the spell is not functioning as intended. It's doing about twice the intended amount of damage. Don't worry, we'll be keeping it persistent as it currently is, but we'll be fixing the damage accordingly.

I'd be interested in hearing how people will feel about the spell's viability once the damage is reduced. We still want it to be a competitive option when compared to Wall of Fire.

Approx 500dmg every 2sec for 30 sec? Far too much on the other hand we need spells like that. WoF on crit mob can hit something similar(as WoF is twice the duration length). When I was testing 'IS' in the vale in my combat log it was always saying crit crit crit crit... So change it there and we all be happy.

If FoM negates that spell change it.
If metamagic doesn't apply to that spell it has to be changed.

[Requiro]

Burninator - I change my proposal with your suggestions (add Unique abilities).(http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=287106)

In my suggestion all 4 spells are similar in damage output. The only advantage WoF over other spells are kiting tactic. But I'm almost sure, that after 2-3 weeks with my changes, players find way to improve damage from this spells. Find new tactic, use bugs, cast Web + Ice Storms together ect. ect.

And idk why everybody talk only about +1dmg / level or +1 dmg / 2 levels. WoF have also other scaling in duration (one additional Tick per 2 levels). And 2x dmg for undead. All 3 thing together made this spell so powerful.

[Therilith]

Truth is, the spell is not supposed to be doing that extra damage.

Good. The spell was a bit much on Lam.
I would love an alternative to WoF, but this was basically just "Wall of Fire" vs "Wall of Fire that can bypass fire resistance".
If you buff spells of each element to WoFs level, make sure you remember to account for the fact that some resists/immunities are far more common than others.

[nbennet]

Can someone please tell me if it kills golems?

[Jaid314]

Can someone please tell me if it kills golems?

if you had actually bothered to read the thread, you would already know the answer to that question, as would the several other people who have asked.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=20 or http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=105 for example, clearly state your answer (and if you're too lazy to click on those links when i've already narrowed down exactly which posts in this thread to check, well, i guess you'll just continue to be ignorant)

[Cartheron]

Heh, Ive made a joke in my first post about this spell (in the first link you posted) and quite alot of people followed, I find that amusing

[sirgog]

Truth is, the spell is not supposed to be doing that extra damage. As Recared mentions here, the tooltip information does not match the amount of damage being done; the spell is not functioning as intended. It's doing about twice the intended amount of damage. Don't worry, we'll be keeping it persistent as it currently is, but we'll be fixing the damage accordingly.

I'd be interested in hearing how people will feel about the spell's viability once the damage is reduced. We still want it to be a competitive option when compared to Wall of Fire.

Running the numbers. Foe is Arraetrikos Normal and also Elite. I assume 15 ticks, if this is wrong, adjust the figures accordingly:

Case 1 - 16th Archmage, not really damage specced, Sup Pot 6, no lore item
Base damage: 10 cold + 15 bludgeoning
Metamagic factor: x2 (maximize only)
Enhancement factor: x1.8 (+50% Sup Pot 6, +30% fire/cold rank 3)
Crits: No chance
Total damage per tick: 36 cold + 54 (before resists)
Total damage applied: 6 cold + 54 bludgeoning (normal), 0 + 54 (elite)
15 ticks per cast (I believe) - total effect is 90 cold + 810 bludgeoning. (just the bludgeoning on Elite)
A 50 SP spell that does 900 damage and has a 30 second cooldown - useful but only just.

Case 2 - 20th Wizard, almost complete fire/ice damage lines, Tevli's Sash, 9%/0.25 lore item (Skiver)
Base damage: 10 cold + 15 bludgeoning
Metamagic factor: x2.5
Enhancement factor: x2.15 (40% fire/ice + 75% tevli's)
Crits: Occur 15% of the time, at 225% intensity (0/150% base, +6%/+50% from tier 2 crit enhancements, +9%/+25% from items). So 2.25 crits per cast. For calculation ease I'll round this to two.
Non-crit tick damage: 53 cold + 80 bludgeoning (rounded down so I could do the numbers in my head). 23+80 after Normal resists, 0+80 elite.
Crit tick damage: 119 cold + 180 bludgeoning (89/180 normal, 39/180 elite)
Total damage over 13 normal ticks and two crit ones: 537 cold + 1400 bludgeoning (normal), 78/1400 elite.

Starting to look like one casting of Ice Storm is a smidgen better than a crit Polar Ray - which sounds great until we consider that this spell effectively has a 30 second cooldown in this scenario.

Case 3 - Epic-geared 20 Sorc, complete fire/ice, Eardweller, 12%/0.5 cold lore item (not sure if one even exists atm, but we'll imagine that you have one)


Base damage: 10 cold + 15 bludgeoning
Metamagic factor: x2.5
Enhancement factor: x2.6 (40% fire/ice, 20% capstone + 100% eardweller)
Crits: Occur 21% of the time, at 275% intensity. For calculation ease I'll round this to 3 crit ticks per cast.
Non-crit tick damage: 65 cold + 97 bludgeoning (rounded down so I could do the numbers in my head). 35+97 after Normal resists, 0+97 elite.
Crit tick damage: 179 cold + 273 bludgeoning (149/273 normal, 99/273 elite)
Total damage over 12 normal ticks and 3 crit ones: 867 cold + 1983 bludgeoning (normal), 297/1983 elite.

That's solid, but not enough (given the pseudo-30 sec cooldown) to warrant a raid slot for the sorc (especially given that this toon is Epic-geared and as such should be somewhat comparable to a barbarian with an Epic Antique Greataxe or a Devil's Ruin augmeneted eSoS or Hellstroke Greataxe.



My suggestion:

Caster level 7-11: 2d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon
Caster level 12-16: 3d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon
Caster level 17-21: 4d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon
Caster level 22+ (requires items to achieve this): 5d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon

That keeps the spell marginal on cold-immune mobs (which IMO it should be), while having it deal appreciable amounts of damage to elite bosses with 80 cold resist, and keeps it scaling well with gear. But it also keeps it balanced - unlike the current Lamania version where a capstone Sorc with only Tevli's Sash and random lootgen Major Cold Lore can out-DPS most melees by doing nothing but casting Icestorm.

[moorewr]

if you had actually bothered to read the thread, you would already know the answer to that question, as would the several other people who have asked.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=20 or http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=105 for example, clearly state your answer (and if you're too lazy to click on those links when i've already narrowed down exactly which posts in this thread to check, well, i guess you'll just continue to be ignorant)

I don't find this one bit conclusive. You need to show me an actual dead golem!

(Keep it going, folks!)

[moorewr]

Running the numbers. Foe is Arraetrikos Normal and also Elite. I assume 15 ticks, if this is wrong, adjust the figures accordingly:

Case 1 - 16th Archmage, not really damage specced, Sup Pot 6, no lore item
Base damage: 10 cold + 15 bludgeoning
Metamagic factor: x2 (maximize only)
Enhancement factor: x1.8 (+50% Sup Pot 6, +30% fire/cold rank 3)
Crits: No chance
Total damage per tick: 36 cold + 54 (before resists)
Total damage applied: 6 cold + 54 bludgeoning (normal), 0 + 54 (elite)
15 ticks per cast (I believe) - total effect is 90 cold + 810 bludgeoning. (just the bludgeoning on Elite)
A 50 SP spell that does 900 damage and has a 30 second cooldown - useful but only just.

Case 2 - 20th Wizard, almost complete fire/ice damage lines, Tevli's Sash, 9%/0.25 lore item (Skiver)
Base damage: 10 cold + 15 bludgeoning
Metamagic factor: x2.5
Enhancement factor: x2.15 (40% fire/ice + 75% tevli's)
Crits: Occur 15% of the time, at 225% intensity (0/150% base, +6%/+50% from tier 2 crit enhancements, +9%/+25% from items). So 2.25 crits per cast. For calculation ease I'll round this to two.
Non-crit tick damage: 53 cold + 80 bludgeoning (rounded down so I could do the numbers in my head). 23+80 after Normal resists, 0+80 elite.
Crit tick damage: 119 cold + 180 bludgeoning (89/180 normal, 39/180 elite)
Total damage over 13 normal ticks and two crit ones: 537 cold + 1400 bludgeoning (normal), 78/1400 elite.

Starting to look like one casting of Ice Storm is a smidgen better than a crit Polar Ray - which sounds great until we consider that this spell effectively has a 30 second cooldown in this scenario.

Case 3 - Epic-geared 20 Sorc, complete fire/ice, Eardweller, 12%/0.5 cold lore item (not sure if one even exists atm, but we'll imagine that you have one)


Base damage: 10 cold + 15 bludgeoning
Metamagic factor: x2.5
Enhancement factor: x2.6 (40% fire/ice, 20% capstone + 100% eardweller)
Crits: Occur 21% of the time, at 275% intensity. For calculation ease I'll round this to 3 crit ticks per cast.
Non-crit tick damage: 65 cold + 97 bludgeoning (rounded down so I could do the numbers in my head). 35+97 after Normal resists, 0+97 elite.
Crit tick damage: 179 cold + 273 bludgeoning (149/273 normal, 99/273 elite)
Total damage over 12 normal ticks and 3 crit ones: 867 cold + 1983 bludgeoning (normal), 297/1983 elite.

That's solid, but not enough (given the pseudo-30 sec cooldown) to warrant a raid slot for the sorc (especially given that this toon is Epic-geared and as such should be somewhat comparable to a barbarian with an Epic Antique Greataxe or a Devil's Ruin augmeneted eSoS or Hellstroke Greataxe.



My suggestion:

Caster level 7-9: 2d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon
Caster level 10-14: 3d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon
Caster level 15-19: 4d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon
Caster level 20+: 5d6 cold + 3d6 bludgeon

That keeps the spell marginal on cold-immune mobs (which IMO it should be), while having it deal appreciable amounts of damage to elite bosses with 80 cold resist, and keeps it scaling well with gear. But it also keeps it balanced - unlike the current Lamania version where a capstone Sorc with only Tevli's Sash and random lootgen Major Cold Lore can out-DPS most melees by doing nothing but casting Icestorm.

A single target seems like a worse-case scenario.. rather than comparing it to polar ray, I'd compare it to places where I would sue Wall of Fire, but can't. Those numbers are still mighty attractive in, say, a hallway ambush in Sins of Attrition.

[Trillea]

A single target seems like a worse-case scenario.. rather than comparing it to polar ray, I'd compare it to places where I would sue Wall of Fire, but can't. Those numbers are still mighty attractive in, say, a hallway ambush in Sins of Attrition.

Yeah, especially after a Waves and Web... MUHAHAHAHA!

[moorewr]

Yeah, especially after a Waves and Web... MUHAHAHAHA!

Now we're cooking!

Hmm.. Web/Storm spec: Conjuration archmage, 3 SP heightened webs with +4 DC, full fire/ice lines....

[ZodacBKB]

Truth is, the spell is not supposed to be doing that extra damage. As Recared mentions here, the tooltip information does not match the amount of damage being done; the spell is not functioning as intended. It's doing about twice the intended amount of damage. Don't worry, we'll be keeping it persistent as it currently is, but we'll be fixing the damage accordingly.

I'd be interested in hearing how people will feel about the spell's viability once the damage is reduced. We still want it to be a competitive option when compared to Wall of Fire.

When you fix the damage, please fix the other bugged aspects of the spell as well.

1) Tooltip says it applies a slow, but apparently it does not.
2) People have reported it does no damage to enemies with Freedom of Movement.
3) Does not work with the Extend Spell metamagic (unless this is intended behavior?).

If those bugs are fixed, I think it would be an interesting and useful spell even doing slightly less damage than firewall. Good against fire-immune mobs, good for the tick speed against mobs that you aren't kiting around, good for the slow against mobs that you are kiting around.

[sirdanile]

if you had actually bothered to read the thread, you would already know the answer to that question, as would the several other people who have asked.

BUT...DOES...IT...KILL...GOLEMS!

as a side note: I wouldn't flame people for creating an inside joke after reading this thread... especially since you're flaming their ability to read...

HINT: They have read, which is exactly why they're asking if it kills golems.


So, Does...it kill golems?

In soviet Russia, Golems kill it!

[sirgog]

A single target seems like a worse-case scenario.. rather than comparing it to polar ray, I'd compare it to places where I would sue Wall of Fire, but can't. Those numbers are still mighty attractive in, say, a hallway ambush in Sins of Attrition.

I guess I mostly use Firewall for boss damage and single-shot nukes (DBF) or instakills for most trash, except where mob HP is too high to warrant that (elite Vale and onward) or shrines are too scarce in which case group em up and Firewall is the approach instead.

The mobs in those ambushes are quite dangerous - you'd need to find a way to keep them in the Ice Storm and stay alive which isn't easy.

[asphodeli]

I looted a Wand of Ice Storm, wonder how that would work out after U8...