Suggestions/Comments on Spellsinger 2/Radiant Servant build

[Gramh]

A boring night inspired me with the idea of TRing my happy little haggle-bot virtuoso into something new that I hadn't seen running loose in Khyber. After hearing so many stories from guildies about bards solo healing VoD, clerics with Positive Energy Bursts in the 200 range non-crit, i figured to combine the ideas. With so many Warchanters, and the new PrE enhancements coming along, I started to work on a nice 14/6 Bard/Cleric, focusing on picking up thread stated PrEs.

My Build As Is (bear with me, I have to type the whole thing out as the current ddo char planner doesn't allow for spellsinger and radiant servant to be taken together):

12 Bard/ 6 Cleric Human

27 Str (base 16, +2 tome, +6 enchant, +3 level)
18 Dex (base 13, +2 tome, +3 enchant)
24 Con (base 16, +2 tome, +6 enchant)
10 Int (base 8, +2 tome)
13 Wis (base 9, +2 tome, +2 enchant)
28 Cha (base 15, +2 tome, +6 enchant, +3 enhancement, +1 level)

Feats: Empower, Empower Healing, Extend, Maximize, Toughness(x3), TWF

Enhancements:
Inspired Attack 1-2
Inspired Damage 1-3
Lingering Song 1-2
Spellsinger 1-2
Radiant Servant
Human Adaptability Charisma 1
Racial Toughness 1-2
Imp. Concentration 1-2
Imp. Heal 1-2
Lyric of Song 1-3
Lyric of Incredible Song 1
Cleric Life Magic 1-2
Song Magic 1-4
Energy of Music 1-3
Charisma 1-2
Divine Vitality 1
Improved Turning 1

Gear is kinda sorta up in the air at the moment, depending on what i decide for final build. Regretting not taking Half elf for the Undying Court abilities though, which is what i'm working hard on getting back to 20 to accomplish in my next TR.

All in all, I've had very few complaints thrown at me, other than the occasional PuG denial. Where I find myself lacking is in the DPS department, which I'm considering gutting out a little bit here and there from the build to pump my dex up to 17 to switch out a toughness slot for Improved TWF. The difficult part is where to take the points from to do that. Do I sacrifice 2 points of strength (giving me 4 points) and raise my dex to 15 and wis to 10? Would Improved TWF make a noticeable difference in my damage more than the 2 points of strength would?

Another question is how the Positive Burst works with the 40% Song Magic and the 20% Life Magic. Would they stack outside of being similar bonuses?

The last question, and one that I'm almost sold on, is dropping a level of bard (sacrificing the +1 to inspire bonus and an extra 5th level spell) and picking up a 7th of cleric (giving me 3 4th level cleric spells and possibly more turns) worth the trade-off?

[BoBoDaClown]

I don't want to be cruel, but have you been solo healing tough content with this?

I would have thought losing MCMWounds would hurt too much in terms of intensity healing.

[Gramh]

I don't want to be cruel, but have you been solo healing tough content with this?

I would have thought losing MCMWounds would hurt too much in terms of intensity healing.

It depends on your definitions of tough content. For leveling purposes I've mainly been doing Vale quests and lower, and if that is considered tough content, then yes I've done a fair bit of solo healing in and around those quests. Funny enough it's alot more easy to heal your DPS when you're up swinging away with them, which is why I've strayed away from pumping my charisma.

If tough content means anything else, then I've either shied away out of uncertainty or there was already a cleric/fvs in the group undermining any solo-healing to be done. Mass Cure Moderate is a great spell to be sure, but if i can throw down on cheap bursts and expensive single target heals for those that aren't in melee, It makes up for that little part missing.

[BoBoDaClown]

I was thinking epics and raids.

I don't have experience with what you are trying to do - it just seems MCMW is the staple of my healings - and I can't imagine you keeping up without spamming MCLW and MCMW - but like I said, I'm just guessing.

[Gramh]

I was thinking epics and raids.

I don't have experience with what you are trying to do - it just seems MCMW is the staple of my healings - and I can't imagine you keeping up without spamming MCLW and MCMW - but like I said, I'm just guessing.

I don't have much experience either >.>. Tbh, i've only really been playing for maybe about 4 months now, if that. And as far as playing bards goes, only about 2 months (good lord the first lvl 20 went by so quick >.> should have seen my quest completion list, it was scarce as all hell).

As raids go, I just support healed my way through VoD backing up the lone cleric, and not many groups you see in raids run with 1 healer anyway so i suppose that's a yes, not sure if support healing VoD is an accomplishment or not (depends on who's tanking and who's taking the tank's aggro >.>). As epics go, I'm supposing if i can keep up with heals on a gimped out virtuoso pre-update 7 solo on epic big top, i'd imagine i could just as well or better now. MCLW is still in the mix coming in at lvl 13, so i wouldn't be without 1 ranged aoe healing spell. Alot of what i'm seeing right now as the difference between my healing and a cleric/fvs's healing is the "all important" heal spell, but that's solved with a scroll stack as everything else goes with bards and spell casting.

[BoBoDaClown]

I don't have much experience either >.>.

I have plenty of experience healing - just not with a 6 cleric splash is what I mean.

I'm glad you are having fun with your build - I just believe a higher level bard could do what you are trying to do, but better.

[Gramh]

In some aspects, yeah a lvl 20 bard could do round about what my mutt could. If i had done what i originally struggled with decision wise, and set it up as a Half Elf (which i'm working on rectifying that situation), having the 6-7 levels of cleric would set me apart in some ways. A nice free rez via Undying Call, a boost to using scimitars for Undying court, and possibly a Pally dilettante, not to mention a wider spell selection, it'd make up for what i'd miss out on with the bard.

The spell selection is definitely helpful as is, being able to free up some bard magic slots to put for cleric magic that are more circumstantial. Thats why i'm especially considering a 7th level in cleric, to get access to a couple new buff spells along with some maneuvering of bard spells to get a much fuller selection, which is why a pure spellsinger just doesn't cut it. It'll always be my gripe about bards, that after 3rd or 4th level of magic, variety isn't really there.

[kaleid0star]

I posted the same idea of mixing cleric levels with a bard months ago for spell singer and radiant servant(search for the Choir Master build) as a flavor build and a lot of people shot it down (mixing caster levels = bad).
One suggestion was going virt 2 and rs 1 for the healing song and the burst and going melee but thats about all that came out from my thread

[Gramh]

I've read the Choir Master thread as much as I could bear to do so. After reading, I still say this is a viable party build. Sure, no Irresistible Dance and Mass Cure Moderate could be seen as hindering in high level content. Though from running epics even with my gimped out haggle-bot that should certainly have never been allowed into epic content, the CC is more suited to the Sorcerer and Wizard classes who have access to higher DC spells and get the enhancements and feats to back them up. If Bards could acquire Mass Hold Monster as a level 6 spell, I would agree wholeheartedly that splashing a caster Bard build would trip it up for high level content. The Mass Cure Moderate spell, with the full set of meta-magics running to give it as much of an edge towards competing with Mass Heal, is an SP drain to consistently cast, especially after a good hearty round of buffing with the Bard usually picked out to throw FoM, GrH, Blur, and Haste (each cast with extend, that put's a noticeable hurt in even the most SP wealthy of Bards, with or without the Spelltrance song).

What else is lost from a non-capped, non-Warchanter Bard? +2 attack and damage from Inspire Courage, Mass Suggestion, and Inspire Heroics. Not to mention the Bard capstone, +2 Cha, 2 more songs, and 20% song duration. A big ouch for a Spellsinger.

So with all that given up for multiclassing, what is gained?

First off, the most important part of the build and why I love it personally, Positive Energy Burst. At base and left alone, it gives a small dose of health, cleans up 1-4 negative levels, and cures up a decent amount of ability damage. Throw Maximize, Empower, Empower Healing, Superior Devotion 5, the healing spell enhancements, the healing spell crit enhancements, and Superior Healing Lore at it, and you have a ridiculously nice heal. If that were all, it would only make up for Cure Moderate Mass at best. The real fun is the early level turning, and the late level burst damage on the undead. For the cost of a handful of spells, some barely useful songs, and a capstone, you get a nice aoe damage spell to help fend off the undead which makes up at least 1/3 if not more of what you spend time fighting in the game and gives back to the party the edge lost when critical hits can't be dealt out.

Now that alone will probably get me at least one or two "your build sucks and you're wrong about everything" hate posts, but that's how I feel about it, I'm not telling anyone else to feel that way about it. Also, I can already hear the complaints of "positive energy burst is too slow" and i understand that. If it were a quick ability to utilize, and if it's cool down time was shorter, it'd end up in the sights of the dev nerf sniping squad much like any other overpowered ability *coughToDcough*.

On a different note, what else could 7 levels of cleric possibly give me? Well for starters, Divine Might comes to mind. Sure it's only a minute worth of +2 sacred damage, but it's a start. It gives me access to (as the half-elf i'm going to be using after I tr back into this build) the Undying Court ability line, adding to my melee capabilities and giving me a free rez ability so i don't have to go finding my scrolls in the heat of battle (with 6-7 bars up already to micromanage all the spells I've collected and items i need and songs and ect., it's hard to remember just where i put those darn things).

Then there's my personal favorite, after the positive burst of course, the expanded spell list. Sure, it's only level 3 spells at 6, level 4 at 7, but with a diminished returns system for higher level spells and a 2-3 day waiting period on switching bard spells out, the ability to customize my spell bars with whatever flavor a certain quest requires on the fly instead of spending out 10k plat is a nice bit of relief. At level 7 cleric, i would have access to Deathward, Shield of Faith Mass, Divine Power, Restoration, Panacea, and the newly fixed Recitation. It also frees up my bard spell list of Freedom of Movement, Neutralize Poison, and Cure Critical Wounds. The same goes for the 3 other levels of spells i can access, giving me gems like Prayer, Resistance, Protection, Divine Favor ect.

All in all, I believe this gives me the edge when it comes to versatile playing style. Does it make me a stellar DPS? Healer? Caster? No, of course not. It just allows me to take up all 3 roles simultaneously to avoid getting stuck in any one particular niche, and shines a light on the versatility of not only the Bard class itself, but the versatility and viability of multiclassing in general.

[bartosy]

Ask yourself the question what do you expect from this build and what do you give to party this way..

I understand you want a full specced healing bard splashed with a cleric for radiant savant. The main problem is mcmw wich you will need later on for healing. You can take it from me that mclw just doesn't cut it for a true healer. Bobo is right you need to spam both continuely to keep people up.

For a full healing bard i also suggest taken quicken especially in end raids like edq where the blades just trash your concentration to 0 and you be able to land 0 heals without it.

Also highly suggested is the full tier of the crit multiplier 18% crit and a 2.75 crit multiplier 2.25 from ap and 0.5 from gaunts of eternity adds a lot of oomph to your heals

On another note I'm pretty sure the song magic and life magic don't stack, and a res for 4 ap is just a bad tradeoff for a class that got 100% fail safe umd on raise dead and are much better spend somewher else.


I'm not gonna say your build sucks tho..its not epic fail and i bet its playable but its a highly customised build for 3 different things. I would honestly say 2 things tho spellcasting you can forget with this build no cc feats whatsoever and melee well you be sub par at melee with just 1 feat of twf.At the end of the day splashing bards, and especially spell specced bards is near impossible to do... That's why you don't see a lot of spellspecced splashed bard builds out there, going pure healing and splashed, just means you throw the cc aspect and power of your songs out of the window immediatly.

[Gramh]

What I'm really at the end of the day looking to do is have the ability to get from point a to point b without crying for a rest shrine and making sure the party can get that far as well. With elyd edge in off hand, spellsong vigor, and regenerating turns i can put a lot more longevity into my build for those long quests (chain of flames for example) that have maybe one or two shrines along the way to keep me and the party from really feeling the sting of it as much or as often.

I understand the rez thing, i'd probably only take it in my first 8 levels and drop it later when i can umd up a rez scroll. Outside of dropping my meta-magic feats, what could I do to keep elyd edge as my off hand and improve my melee without killing my damage or charisma based everything?

I knew going into this my crowd control spells weren't going to be much of anything useful, but tbh i still have no love for the bard's spell list for crowd control anyway. It seems funny to me that as much as crowd control seems to be put on the bard as it's specialty, it's extremely limited for the class compared spell wise to the wizard/sorc list. Fascinate is by far my favorite crowd control method, but when i'm not running with guildies (and let's face it even guildies can be guilty of this) the recently fascinated mobs get hit with a random firewall or bloodlusting melee and there went the attempt. Give the bards mass hold, and i'll respec to make that a priority. Until then, if i really want to make a crowd control character i'll go with any other caster class.

The only real thing after those points(personal opinions) that gives the bard a casting edge is the handful of buffs from the divine and arcane lists. I know that's gonna get me in trouble with the bard community at large if i haven't done so already, but after playing and loving to play bards it's been my only major gripe i've had with the class at all. So far as crowd control goes there's only Mass Charm Monster, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and Mass Suggestion (which is kinda silly to speak of what with mass charm sitting on that list). You'd wonder why i don't count Irresistible, but it's not what i think of when i think crowd control as far as when you hear crowd you think multiple targets which the spell only has one close range target(i.e. putting the bard too close to an enemy that's still wandering around). Greater Shout, it's nice, but i'm not really sure how the fort save plays out against high hit point mobs for it to be worthwhile to mention as crowd control.

As far as the healing goes I can get my burst up to around about the healing of the mass cure moderate spell, but without the concentration check or using up sp. Sure it centers around me as a target, but speccing more towards melee i can run around with the other melee classes who are usually the ones that need the most healing, and sit there bursting and hacking and slashing to keep everyone on their feet, with the occasional cure critical thrown in for good measure on the tank or the caster who accidentally catches agro. The gauntlets of eternity are definitely being sought out at the moment to further improve both my healing spells and my burst crits. I don't know how many points i can shake loose out of my current build to put into better crits from the bard enhancement line, but it's kind of a work in progress (with ddo character planner being incapable of making this build it's been an investment in learning what works and what doesn't). I don't have cure light mass yet, but i haven't found a need for it with my style of play. I might find myself in that situation in non-raid higher level content, we'll see.

So far though it's been a blast to play, and it's definitely turning heads on the server, so on that note I'm pleased.

[kaleid0star]

So far though it's been a blast to play, and it's definitely turning heads on the server, so on that note I'm pleased.

The only thing that matters (^_^)