Holy and Pure Good

[AltheaSteelrain]

Here's my problem, both of them bypass certain DR of "evil" monsters (orthons, devils.. etc etc...) right?

If so, then a pure good / good burst tier on a greensteel weapon would yield the same dr breaking results excluding additional DR bypass requirement (Silver, Bysheyk... Junts...) just as a holy property would.

So how come people suggest to go Holy instead of Good Burst on Greensteel if both of them already bypass certain DR and the only difference is the DPS, where holy is better as constant damage whereas good burst is better on auto crit/on crit scenarios.

I find good burst better than holy given that on ideal epic runs its an auto crit fest but am also aware that the reality is most epic PUGs are not CC heavy to begin with.

Or is there a DR/Silver + Holy/Junts on bosses which I am not aware of?

Just a thought.

PS: Hi Junts

Discuss.

[Pape_27]

maybe because holy is tier 1 and good burst is tier 2? having the holy element on tier 1 may create more flexibility in crafting.

[Lithic]

People serious about epics tend to make a couple greensteel weapons specifically for the auto-crit times (triple earth heavy picks for example, or freezing ice picks). If you aren't making a trash beater, then you are better off with holy because it does much more damage than goodburst on non-auto crit mobs. I guess you could always make a shock/good burst/shocking blast/lightning2 pick for trash mobs, its just rather expensive and I think the lack of a hold effect might outweigh the 600pt proc on epic.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Doing first tier Holy also allows you to put a +1 exceptional stat in tier two if your only concerned with using it as a boss beater...in the case of MIN II's anyways.

[ConnorMacLoad]

I may be wrong here. But I think holy does more damage than good burst. I think holy does 7 damage per strike, and good burst does 6.3. Do not quote me on it, but I think that is the case.

I may also have totally miss read your post

edit: sorry, that was on a khopesh

[sirgog]

If you are making a Lit 2 khopesh, the choice is between:

Holy Shocking Burst:
3d6 on hit (10.5), 3d6+2d10 on crit (21.5) against evil, 3.5/14.5 against good or neutral

and

Shock Goodburst:
2d6 on hit (7), 6d6 on crit (21) against evil or neutral, 3.5/3.5 against good.


Only time Shock Goodburst is better is against neutral mobs (maybe 10-20% of endgame epic trash at most), and it's not nearly far enough ahead to justify spending 10 large scales on a pair of Shock/GB weapons. Holy/SB is better all around.

[ryingar]

maybe because holy is tier 1 and good burst is tier 2? having the holy element on tier 1 may create more flexibility in crafting.

Doing first tier Holy also allows you to put a +1 exceptional stat in tier two if your only concerned with using it as a boss beater...in the case of MIN II's anyways.

In the following I am refering to MinII weaps speficially:

First - Good hits Evil and Neutral mobs. Holy only hits evil. Most put good on their weap not holy. If you dont agree with this feel free to make both and see which is more effective.

Second - No one who is making a Named mob beater is going to but a +1 stat on that weap....reduces the usefulness of that weap at the cost of dual shard ings.


GL out there

[vVAnjilaVv]

In the following I am refering to MinII weaps speficially:

First - Good hits Evil and Neutral mobs. Holy only hits evil. Most put good on their weap not holy. If you dont agree with this feel free to make both and see which is more effective.

Second - No one who is making a Named mob beater is going to but a +1 stat on that weap....reduces the usefulness of that weap at the cost of dual shard ings.


GL out there

I said if your only using it as a BB...what good is acid damage on a greater devil?

[ConnorMacLoad]

In the following I am refering to MinII weaps speficially:

First - Good hits Evil and Neutral mobs. Holy only hits evil. Most put good on their weap not holy. If you dont agree with this feel free to make both and see which is more effective.

Second - No one who is making a Named mob beater is going to but a +1 stat on that weap....reduces the usefulness of that weap at the cost of dual shard ings.


GL out there

But don't most people make Min II as a boss beater, in which case, aren't they all evil?

[ryingar]

I said if your only using it as a BB...what good is acid damage on a greater devil?

If you are only going to use it as a BB. Go for it. But Ill bet that you'll use it alot more often on other mobs than you think.

But don't most people make Min II as a boss beater, in which case, aren't they all evil?

Good point, though people make it as a DPS weap and a boss beater...usually the first GS weap made for a toon.... thus you'd want that to be more functional. There were a lot of discusions on this back when the shroud came out and i imagine it will always be discussed and argued both ways.

I prefer the versitality of the good burst than the holy. Though this does depend on the crit range of the weap. What type of weap are you planing on making?

[Pape_27]

In the following I am refering to MinII weaps speficially:

First - Good hits Evil and Neutral mobs. Holy only hits evil. Most put good on their weap not holy. If you dont agree with this feel free to make both and see which is more effective.


GL out there

Thats funny, because most MinII's ive seen follow the Pos/Earth/MinII path, which would be Holy + Acid Burst + Acid Blast.

The only problem with you thought is that the truely bad creatures are of evil alignment. But you go right ahead and Make that MinII Earth/Pos/MinII Path... Im sure the extra damage you generate against all those vale rats, oozes and mephits will turn you into a game breaking dps hero

[ryingar]

Thats funny, because most MinII's ive seen follow the Pos/Earth/MinII path, which would be Holy + Acid Burst + Acid Blast.

The only problem with you thought is that the truely bad creatures are of evil alignment. But you go right ahead and Make that MinII Earth/Pos/MinII Path... Im sure the extra damage you generate against all those vale rats, oozes and mephits will turn you into a game breaking dps hero

Based on your join date, I'm going to guess that you were not here for when the shroud came out and the discussions that were held at that time in regard to this conversation.

Whereas a number of people with disagree with my statements, most have supplied their view as to why they think it is that way. Some have provided numerical data as to why they believe it is thus. Its ok to disagree and offer an agrument to support your view.

If you want to start drama come over to Khyber (Previously known as the land of "Hi Welcome" which would have could have been applied here in reference to you at a different point in time) we'll help you out with that urge. Spend some more time on the pond before you resort to insults.

[Junts]

Here's my problem, both of them bypass certain DR of "evil" monsters (orthons, devils.. etc etc...) right?

If so, then a pure good / good burst tier on a greensteel weapon would yield the same dr breaking results excluding additional DR bypass requirement (Silver, Bysheyk... Junts...) just as a holy property would.

So how come people suggest to go Holy instead of Good Burst on Greensteel if both of them already bypass certain DR and the only difference is the DPS, where holy is better as constant damage whereas good burst is better on auto crit/on crit scenarios.

I find good burst better than holy given that on ideal epic runs its an auto crit fest but am also aware that the reality is most epic PUGs are not CC heavy to begin with.

Or is there a DR/Silver + Holy/Junts on bosses which I am not aware of?

Just a thought.

PS: Hi Junts

Discuss.

Holy deals 2d6 damage per hit. Good burst provides only 1d6 damage, plus its burst.

Elemental effects provide 1d6 damage per hit, and 1d6 damage on their elemental burst + the bursting damage.

By taking holy tier 1, you get a combined 3d6 damage on every swing, instead of 2d6. The burst damage is slightly lower (the d10 2d10 vs 3d6 4d6 etc progressions), but the extra 1d6 damage on every attack is a lot better than a slight difference on critical hits.

[sephiroth1084]

Most monsters we fight at end game are evil, so the times are few when Holy is worse than Pure Good. Add to that the fact that against the large majority of that subset of monsters, you're likely looking to use a greater bane over most greensteel options anyway; constructs are immune to most elements or gain some benefits from them (acid heals some golems, lightning hastes others). I could see using a Lightning II weapon that's Shock/Good Burst on elementals, but it would be worse against all the other stuff you're smacking around.

Also...why make a Pos/Pos bow? I could be wrong, but I thought the Silver Longbow was better than triple Pos, or close enough that spending ingredients is kind of silly.

[Nyvn]

In the following I am refering to MinII weaps speficially:

First - Good hits Evil and Neutral mobs. Holy only hits evil. Most put good on their weap not holy. If you dont agree with this feel free to make both and see which is more effective.

Second - No one who is making a Named mob beater is going to but a +1 stat on that weap....reduces the usefulness of that weap at the cost of dual shard ings.


GL out there

How many neutral mobs do you really fight? Elementals, constructs, animals?

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

Holy deals 2d6 damage per hit. Good burst provides only 1d6 damage, plus its burst.

Elemental effects provide 1d6 damage per hit, and 1d6 damage on their elemental burst + the bursting damage.

By taking holy tier 1, you get a combined 3d6 damage on every swing, instead of 2d6. The burst damage is slightly lower (the d10 2d10 vs 3d6 4d6 etc progressions), but the extra 1d6 damage on every attack is a lot better than a slight difference on critical hits.

Here's what I got when I did some mathsmithing on a falchion over 20 swings (crit 14-20/x2):

POS/ear/ear falchion vs EVIL
2d6+1d6+1d10c
199.5+38.5
238

ear/POS/ear falchion vs EVIL & NEUTRAL
1d6+1d6+3d6c
133+73.5
206.5

POS/ear/ear falchion vs NEUTRAL
1d6+1d10c
66.5+38.5
105

pos/ear/ear is...
+1.5/swing vs evil
-5.0/swing vs neutral

So you're getting a bit more per swing against evil creatures by going holy and losing three times that differece against neutral. Judge for yourself if its worth it. For me, im torn on the issue because I will be using my weapon against everything as a kensei III, and not just a boss-beater. Keep in mind that the holy weapon is doing more acid damage than the good burst weapon as well, which gets mitigated against pit fiends. So the good burst may well be doing more damage after that's figured in. I'm thinking the numbers actually support good burst.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong or a mistake to be found in my numbers.

For those who aren't clear on what's being compared:
Good Burst: 1d6 + 3d6crit (4d6 for x3 crits, etc...)
Acid Burst: 1d6 + 1d10crit (2d10 for x3 crits, etc...)

The difference in damage on a crit is significant for an x2 crit weapon. I think its important to do the figures for each weapon in question and not just apply a blanket statement. Haven't done the math but I could see a greataxe perhaps favoring the holy more.

[AltheaSteelrain]

For arcane archers, Earthgrab and Trap the Soul are the best options for trash mobs. For bosses, stop piking and put the bow away, time to pull out a real weapon

Ah, this is when I pull out my Scimmies and pretend tempest moment (I'm an elf)

Holy deals 2d6 damage per hit. Good burst provides only 1d6 damage, plus its burst.

Elemental effects provide 1d6 damage per hit, and 1d6 damage on their elemental burst + the bursting damage.

By taking holy tier 1, you get a combined 3d6 damage on every swing, instead of 2d6. The burst damage is slightly lower (the d10 2d10 vs 3d6 4d6 etc progressions), but the extra 1d6 damage on every attack is a lot better than a slight difference on critical hits.

That I do get, however I felt when I made a shock/good burst is it also bypass DR/good so why not right? I figure the DPS loss is never a problem if I'm just ranging specifically when on Manyshot and/or when its more appropriate.

But then when people like you suggest to go Holy/whatever instead, it kept me thinking, "is there a DR/holy ingame that I am not aware of?".

Also...why make a Pos/Pos bow? I could be wrong, but I thought the Silver Longbow was better than triple Pos, or close enough that spending ingredients is kind of silly.

I like my raise dead clickie please

And Laliat they say loves lightning :P

[Yajerman01]

Okay, so heres a Monk question:

Epic Jidz Tet'ka Bracers have a clear slot. I was thinking of putting "Good" (ddowiki) in that slot. It does not describe what "good" damage is, so I am assuming they mean that or similar to good burst on greensteel.

The I was going to place "Holy" on my TOD ring.

Is that a good combo set and can someone pan-out what damage is meant by "good"

[Trillea]

Okay, so heres a Monk question:

Epic Jidz Tet'ka Bracers have a clear slot. I was thinking of putting "Good" (ddowiki) in that slot. It does not describe what "good" damage is, so I am assuming they mean that or similar to good burst on greensteel.

The I was going to place "Holy" on my TOD ring.

Is that a good combo set and can someone pan-out what damage is meant by "good"

Colorless can only accept +6 stat or +1 exceptional stat, you cannot put good in them. That takes a red, orange, or violet slot.

[aristarchus1000]

Here's what I got when I did some mathsmithing on a falchion over 20 swings (crit 14-20/x2):

POS/ear/ear falchion vs EVIL
2d6+1d6+1d10c
199.5+38.5
238

ear/POS/ear falchion vs EVIL & NEUTRAL
1d6+1d6+3d6c
133+73.5
206.5

POS/ear/ear falchion vs NEUTRAL
1d6+1d10c
66.5+38.5
105

pos/ear/ear is...
+1.5/swing vs evil
-5.0/swing vs neutral

So you're getting a bit more per swing against evil creatures by going holy and losing three times that differece against neutral. Judge for yourself if its worth it. For me, im torn on the issue because I will be using my weapon against everything as a kensei III, and not just a boss-beater. Keep in mind that the holy weapon is doing more acid damage than the good burst weapon as well, which gets mitigated against pit fiends. So the good burst may well be doing more damage after that's figured in. I'm thinking the numbers actually support good burst.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong or a mistake to be found in my numbers.

For those who aren't clear on what's being compared:
Good Burst: 1d6 + 3d6crit (4d6 for x3 crits, etc...)
Acid Burst: 1d6 + 1d10crit (2d10 for x3 crits, etc...)

The difference in damage on a crit is significant for an x2 crit weapon. I think its important to do the figures for each weapon in question and not just apply a blanket statement. Haven't done the math but I could see a greataxe perhaps favoring the holy more.

The problem with that is that you are assuming you are using the same weapon for every mob in the game and going for the best average. The fact is that neutral mobs make up less than 25% of the challenging part of the game (if it's not challenging, you don't need to optimize anyway). In most of those cases, you are far better off pulling out any old Greater Elemental/Undead/Contruct bane rather than using your shroud weapon, even with Goodburst.

Your Min2 is primarily a devil/demon/dr boss beater. It's just ok against others.

The main concern is that tier 1 shock and tier 2 shock burst (or any element) given only 1d6 per hit regardless of whether it is tier 1 or tier 2, where as Holy gives 2d6 in tier 1 but only 1d6 in tier 2. When you combine the damage, you have a less effective weapon against evil mobs with the elemental/good burst version over holy/elemental version.

If you are really concerned, make a relatively cheap (no larges) double positive holy/gb weapon against non-bosses, and start collecting greater banes.