Holy and Pure Good

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

Holy deals 2d6 damage per hit. Good burst provides only 1d6 damage, plus its burst.

Elemental effects provide 1d6 damage per hit, and 1d6 damage on their elemental burst + the bursting damage.

By taking holy tier 1, you get a combined 3d6 damage on every swing, instead of 2d6. The burst damage is slightly lower (the d10 2d10 vs 3d6 4d6 etc progressions), but the extra 1d6 damage on every attack is a lot better than a slight difference on critical hits.

Here's what I got when I did some mathsmithing on a falchion over 20 swings (crit 14-20/x2):

POS/ear/ear falchion vs EVIL
2d6+1d6+1d10c
199.5+38.5
238

ear/POS/ear falchion vs EVIL & NEUTRAL
1d6+1d6+3d6c
133+73.5
206.5

POS/ear/ear falchion vs NEUTRAL
1d6+1d10c
66.5+38.5
105

pos/ear/ear is...
+1.5/swing vs evil
-5.0/swing vs neutral

So you're getting a bit more per swing against evil creatures by going holy and losing three times that differece against neutral. Judge for yourself if its worth it. For me, im torn on the issue because I will be using my weapon against everything as a kensei III, and not just a boss-beater. Keep in mind that the holy weapon is doing more acid damage than the good burst weapon as well, which gets mitigated against pit fiends. So the good burst may well be doing more damage after that's figured in. I'm thinking the numbers actually support good burst.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong or a mistake to be found in my numbers.

For those who aren't clear on what's being compared:
Good Burst: 1d6 + 3d6crit (4d6 for x3 crits, etc...)
Acid Burst: 1d6 + 1d10crit (2d10 for x3 crits, etc...)

The difference in damage on a crit is significant for an x2 crit weapon. I think its important to do the figures for each weapon in question and not just apply a blanket statement. Haven't done the math but I could see a greataxe perhaps favoring the holy more.

[AltheaSteelrain]

For arcane archers, Earthgrab and Trap the Soul are the best options for trash mobs. For bosses, stop piking and put the bow away, time to pull out a real weapon

Ah, this is when I pull out my Scimmies and pretend tempest moment (I'm an elf)

Holy deals 2d6 damage per hit. Good burst provides only 1d6 damage, plus its burst.

Elemental effects provide 1d6 damage per hit, and 1d6 damage on their elemental burst + the bursting damage.

By taking holy tier 1, you get a combined 3d6 damage on every swing, instead of 2d6. The burst damage is slightly lower (the d10 2d10 vs 3d6 4d6 etc progressions), but the extra 1d6 damage on every attack is a lot better than a slight difference on critical hits.

That I do get, however I felt when I made a shock/good burst is it also bypass DR/good so why not right? I figure the DPS loss is never a problem if I'm just ranging specifically when on Manyshot and/or when its more appropriate.

But then when people like you suggest to go Holy/whatever instead, it kept me thinking, "is there a DR/holy ingame that I am not aware of?".

Also...why make a Pos/Pos bow? I could be wrong, but I thought the Silver Longbow was better than triple Pos, or close enough that spending ingredients is kind of silly.

I like my raise dead clickie please

And Laliat they say loves lightning :P

[Yajerman01]

Okay, so heres a Monk question:

Epic Jidz Tet'ka Bracers have a clear slot. I was thinking of putting "Good" (ddowiki) in that slot. It does not describe what "good" damage is, so I am assuming they mean that or similar to good burst on greensteel.

The I was going to place "Holy" on my TOD ring.

Is that a good combo set and can someone pan-out what damage is meant by "good"

[aristarchus1000]

Here's what I got when I did some mathsmithing on a falchion over 20 swings (crit 14-20/x2):

POS/ear/ear falchion vs EVIL
2d6+1d6+1d10c
199.5+38.5
238

ear/POS/ear falchion vs EVIL & NEUTRAL
1d6+1d6+3d6c
133+73.5
206.5

POS/ear/ear falchion vs NEUTRAL
1d6+1d10c
66.5+38.5
105

pos/ear/ear is...
+1.5/swing vs evil
-5.0/swing vs neutral

So you're getting a bit more per swing against evil creatures by going holy and losing three times that differece against neutral. Judge for yourself if its worth it. For me, im torn on the issue because I will be using my weapon against everything as a kensei III, and not just a boss-beater. Keep in mind that the holy weapon is doing more acid damage than the good burst weapon as well, which gets mitigated against pit fiends. So the good burst may well be doing more damage after that's figured in. I'm thinking the numbers actually support good burst.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong or a mistake to be found in my numbers.

For those who aren't clear on what's being compared:
Good Burst: 1d6 + 3d6crit (4d6 for x3 crits, etc...)
Acid Burst: 1d6 + 1d10crit (2d10 for x3 crits, etc...)

The difference in damage on a crit is significant for an x2 crit weapon. I think its important to do the figures for each weapon in question and not just apply a blanket statement. Haven't done the math but I could see a greataxe perhaps favoring the holy more.

The problem with that is that you are assuming you are using the same weapon for every mob in the game and going for the best average. The fact is that neutral mobs make up less than 25% of the challenging part of the game (if it's not challenging, you don't need to optimize anyway). In most of those cases, you are far better off pulling out any old Greater Elemental/Undead/Contruct bane rather than using your shroud weapon, even with Goodburst.

Your Min2 is primarily a devil/demon/dr boss beater. It's just ok against others.

The main concern is that tier 1 shock and tier 2 shock burst (or any element) given only 1d6 per hit regardless of whether it is tier 1 or tier 2, where as Holy gives 2d6 in tier 1 but only 1d6 in tier 2. When you combine the damage, you have a less effective weapon against evil mobs with the elemental/good burst version over holy/elemental version.

If you are really concerned, make a relatively cheap (no larges) double positive holy/gb weapon against non-bosses, and start collecting greater banes.

[muffinlad]

If you are really concerned, make a relatively cheap (no larges) double positive holy/gb weapon against non-bosses, and start collecting greater banes.

I second that idea. I find that I have enough Tier I and II items (Tier I shards are occasionally a pain) that building two or three additional weapons to "Tier II" is not that big of a deal.

muffinsteel

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

The problem with that is that you are assuming you are using the same weapon for every mob in the game and going for the best average. The fact is that neutral mobs make up less than 25% of the challenging part of the game (if it's not challenging, you don't need to optimize anyway). In most of those cases, you are far better off pulling out any old Greater Elemental/Undead/Contruct bane rather than using your shroud weapon, even with Goodburst.

Well this is true that I am a bit too focused on going for a best overall, average weapon. Unfortunately I'm a weapons minimalist and rarely (read like never) switch weapons. I'm aware this doesn't mesh well with the mechanics of DDO. However, in my favor is the specific weapon focus of a Kensei III which benefits a one-weapon-for-all-occasions user like myself, and in actuality can make swapping weapons a poor choice (ie switching from a falchion you're fully spec'd for to a rapier to get around DR/piercing.)

I haven't done any math regarding Greater Bane weapons but are you sure they are significantly better than a MinII against those types? GS weapons have the greater base damage, a +5 value which is magnified on crits, multiple bonus damages as well as MinII bonus damage. It seems like a lot to make up for so I can't imagine it would be very far behind a greater bane weapon.

Your Min2 is primarily a devil/demon/dr boss beater. It's just ok against others.

Isn't "just ok" an understatement here? Against most "trash" mobs the common opinion seems to be a LitII falchion is the highest dps (and even that is controversial in my eyes because of the lost damage from 600 point overkills should not be considered.) The MinII is only a small step behind a LitII.

The main concern is that tier 1 shock and tier 2 shock burst (or any element) given only 1d6 per hit regardless of whether it is tier 1 or tier 2, where as Holy gives 2d6 in tier 1 but only 1d6 in tier 2. When you combine the damage, you have a less effective weapon against evil mobs with the elemental/good burst version over holy/elemental version.

That's not true because its ignoring the bonuses for critical hits. These numbers should fairly be taken into account. Good burst is 1d6 plus 3d6 on a crit for 2x crit weapons. That's more of a bonus than the 1d6 extra damage from holy, when compared to the 1d10 bonus on a crit for 2x crit weapons that acid burst gives. What I tried to show above with my numbers that at worst the difference is 1.5 damage favoring holy/elem/elem item under the best conditions. If you factor in acid resistance, then that 1.5 damage may well disappear. So if for a falchion, elem/good/elem is as good as holy/elem/elem against Mr. Pit Fiend, and better against all neutrals, then why not choose it?

If you are really concerned, make a relatively cheap (no larges) double positive holy/gb weapon against non-bosses, and start collecting greater banes.

Within the same weapon category (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing) there is no way to make a more damaging level two GS weapon than a level three GS item. I do recommend a pos/pos maul for most THF melee for undead and the raise dead ability.

I look forward to your responses. Good discussion.

[rjedi]

I second that idea. I find that I have enough Tier I and II items (Tier I shards are occasionally a pain) that building two or three additional weapons to "Tier II" is not that big of a deal.

muffinsteel

I agree with this, making 2nd tier items has so many uses, they have useful clickeys (haste, displacement, stoneskin) and if your having trouble pulling that twink holy of pg weapon just craft one that is better then any you could pull and have it for a few ingre you should have plenty of

[Trillea]

Okay, so heres a Monk question:

Epic Jidz Tet'ka Bracers have a clear slot. I was thinking of putting "Good" (ddowiki) in that slot. It does not describe what "good" damage is, so I am assuming they mean that or similar to good burst on greensteel.

The I was going to place "Holy" on my TOD ring.

Is that a good combo set and can someone pan-out what damage is meant by "good"

Colorless can only accept +6 stat or +1 exceptional stat, you cannot put good in them. That takes a red, orange, or violet slot.

[Tom_Hunters]

let me add my question, how many mobs around have lightning immunity?
some constructs (and where can i find them?) and the reaver?

For myself, I made a less usual form of the Lit II falchion (not intended tbh):
Shock>Good burst = 2d6 per non-crit & 5d6 per crit

the more common one is
Holy>Shock burst = 3d6 per non-crit & 3d6+1d10 per crit

Roughly critting 1 out of 3 hits, I lose 1d6 on non-crit but gain marginally on crit (1.5 dmg on an average crit), so that is around -1.8 dmg/hit on average

Well it won't be the best weapon in game but I think it will have a niche in my backpack, coz it works well on neutral mobs and lighnting resist/immune mobs (with its better base dmg and good dmg I don't think I am swapping my blade for those mobs)

I guess it's around 3% loss with dps in most situations (<60%) VS more dps on 30-40% situation (when u are against a neutral and/or lightning resisted guy)

so probably I will continue my tierIII crafting with it

[Zippo]

..... (Silver, Bysheyk... Junts...) ......


....... DR/Silver + Holy/Junts on bosses which I ......



PS: Hi Junts .........

Did you lose a bet?

[Pape_27]

In the following I am refering to MinII weaps speficially:

First - Good hits Evil and Neutral mobs. Holy only hits evil. Most put good on their weap not holy. If you dont agree with this feel free to make both and see which is more effective.


GL out there

Thats funny, because most MinII's ive seen follow the Pos/Earth/MinII path, which would be Holy + Acid Burst + Acid Blast.

The only problem with you thought is that the truely bad creatures are of evil alignment. But you go right ahead and Make that MinII Earth/Pos/MinII Path... Im sure the extra damage you generate against all those vale rats, oozes and mephits will turn you into a game breaking dps hero

[AltheaSteelrain]

Did you lose a bet?

No. I figure I should put that.

I am looking for a Dr 50 Junts/casual as well so when I post something gimpy it'll not hurt much :P

[ryingar]

Thats funny, because most MinII's ive seen follow the Pos/Earth/MinII path, which would be Holy + Acid Burst + Acid Blast.

The only problem with you thought is that the truely bad creatures are of evil alignment. But you go right ahead and Make that MinII Earth/Pos/MinII Path... Im sure the extra damage you generate against all those vale rats, oozes and mephits will turn you into a game breaking dps hero

Based on your join date, I'm going to guess that you were not here for when the shroud came out and the discussions that were held at that time in regard to this conversation.

Whereas a number of people with disagree with my statements, most have supplied their view as to why they think it is that way. Some have provided numerical data as to why they believe it is thus. Its ok to disagree and offer an agrument to support your view.

If you want to start drama come over to Khyber (Previously known as the land of "Hi Welcome" which would have could have been applied here in reference to you at a different point in time) we'll help you out with that urge. Spend some more time on the pond before you resort to insults.

[sephiroth1084]

I haven't done any math regarding Greater Bane weapons but are you sure they are significantly better than a MinII against those types? GS weapons have the greater base damage, a +5 value which is magnified on crits, multiple bonus damages as well as MinII bonus damage. It seems like a lot to make up for so I can't imagine it would be very far behind a greater bane weapon.

Greater banes definitely deal more damage, particularly if they have a worthwhile DPS prefix. Compare a +1 Holy whatever of Greater <insert> bane w/ a Mineral II:
+5 enhancement
+5d6 damage per swing

vs.

+5 enhancement
+1 die size (usually +1 DPSwing)
+3d5 damage per swing
+1d10 per crit
+other stuff on crit (can never recall what the Blast damage number is)

The on-crit damage doesn't amount to 2 extra d6 worth of damage on every hit, and the +1 from the better die size on the greensteel would be matched if your greater bane were a +2, and surpassed if it were a +3 or better. Pretty sure that superb (+5 w/ good DPS prefix) greater banes even bypass Lit II for DPS.

And none of that has taken into account that you can throw Icy Burst on the greater bane. Fairly certain that my +4 Icy Burst Vicious Greatsword of Greater Elemental Bane is better DPS than any combination of Lit II vs. eles.

[Kinerd]

I haven't done any math regarding Greater Bane weapons but are you sure they are significantly better than a MinII against those types? GS weapons have the greater base damage, a +5 value which is magnified on crits, multiple bonus damages as well as MinII bonus damage. It seems like a lot to make up for so I can't imagine it would be very far behind a greater bane weapon.

For a more general treatment of sephiroth1084's post: The greater bane weapon has X + 4 bonus to damage and 3d6 per swing, where X is the inherent + of the weapon. The mineral II is +5, +1(ish) for better dice, +3d6 per swing, + (multiplier - 1) * d10 * threat, +4d6 on 20. Hence, we have:

(X + 4 + 3d6) * 19 vs. (5 + 1 + 3d6) * 19 + 4d6 + threat * (multiplier - 1) * d10

The value of (threat * (multiplier - 1)) is usually 6, or 8 for a khopesh. Let's try 8 and see what other modifiers the greater bane needs to catch up:

X * 19 + 275.5 vs. 313.5 + 14 + 44
X * 19 vs. 96

We have up to 11 base price modifier to work with, 3 of which goes to greater bane and at least 1 of which goes to base enchant. If we found, for instance, Shocking Burst on a +1 greater bane, we would get:

1 * 19 + 1d6 * 19 + 8d10 vs. 96
85.5 + 44 vs. 96
129.5 vs. 96

So already the greater bane is better, and its minimum level is only 10. We have room to go up to +5 Shocking Burst of Greater Bane by level 20, which would be much better.

If we instead found Holy on a +1 greater bane, we would get:
1 * 19 + 2d6 * 19 vs. 96
152 vs. 96

And so on.

[sephiroth1084]

For a more general treatment of sephiroth1084's post: The greater bane weapon has X + 4 bonus to damage and 3d6 per swing, where X is the inherent + of the weapon. The mineral II is +5, +1(ish) for better dice, +3d6 per swing, + (multiplier - 1) * d10 * threat, +4d6 on 20. Hence, we have:

(X + 4 + 3d6) * 19 vs. (5 + 1 + 3d6) * 19 + 4d6 + threat * (multiplier - 1) * d10

The value of (threat * (multiplier - 1)) is usually 6, or 8 for a khopesh. Let's try 8 and see what other modifiers the greater bane needs to catch up:

X * 19 + 275.5 vs. 313.5 + 14 + 44
X * 19 vs. 96

We have up to 11 base price modifier to work with, 3 of which goes to greater bane and at least 1 of which goes to base enchant. If we found, for instance, Shocking Burst on a +1 greater bane, we would get:

1 * 19 + 1d6 * 19 + 8d10 vs. 96
85.5 + 44 vs. 96
129.5 vs. 96

So already the greater bane is better, and its minimum level is only 10. We have room to go up to +5 Shocking Burst of Greater Bane by level 20, which would be much better.

If we instead found Holy on a +1 greater bane, we would get:
1 * 19 + 2d6 * 19 vs. 96
152 vs. 96

And so on.

+1.

Much better job explaining that than I did.

[Junts]

Did you lose a bet?

I innately bypass the dr of noobs and forum whiners. It's a supernatural trait.

[Matuse]

Epic Jidz Tet'ka Bracers have a clear slot.

Colorless, not clear.

I was thinking of putting "Good" (ddowiki) in that slot. It does not describe what "good" damage is, so I am assuming they mean that or similar to good burst on greensteel.

You assume wrong.

First, you can only put Good into a Red/Orange/Violet slot. The Jidz Tet'ka's are BRACERS not Handwraps, so they do not have weapon related epic slots. You cannot put Good into them.

Second, all this means is that your attacks have /Good in their ability to break DR, along with /Blunt, /Law, /Adamantine, and /Magic (those last 4 will be present for any monk using handwraps at level 16+)

It is ONLY a DR breaking check. The Good you see in epic slots does NO bonus damage of any kind! None! Zero! No damage at all!

The I was going to place "Holy" on my TOD ring.

This is a good idea. In addition to 2d6 in Holy damage on your unarmed attacks, this provides /Good onto your attacks for breaking DR on trash devils and liches (well, liches are Good+Blunt, but you are unarmed, and fists are blunt). Mix in handwraps with metalline or silver/cold iron threading, and you have pit fiend, horned devil, and demon DR breaking attacks.

[Junts]

Colorless, not clear.



You assume wrong.

First, you can only put Good into a Red/Orange/Violet slot. The Jidz Tet'ka's are BRACERS not Handwraps, so they do not have weapon related epic slots. You cannot put Good into them.

Second, all this means is that your attacks have /Good in their ability to break DR, along with /Blunt, /Law, /Adamantine, and /Magic (those last 4 will be present for any monk using handwraps at level 16+)

It is ONLY a DR breaking check. The Good you see in epic slots does NO bonus damage of any kind! None! Zero! No damage at all!


This is a good idea. In addition to 2d6 in Holy damage on your unarmed attacks, this provides /Good onto your attacks for breaking DR on trash devils and liches (well, liches are Good+Blunt, but you are unarmed, and fists are blunt). Mix in handwraps with metalline or silver/cold iron threading, and you have pit fiend, horned devil, and demon DR breaking attacks.

Liches are magic/blunt, not good. You can bypass on a lich with a flaming greater undead bane.

[Kinerd]

+1.

Much better job explaining that than I did.

Thanks! I did make one mistake though, that I realized later: there should also be a part where the damage enhancement's contribution to critical damage is taken into account. Because the greater bane weapons can get a higher total damage enhancement, though, correcting this error is in their favor, making them even better than previously indicated.