Yet Another Archmage vs. Pale Master topic

[Deragoth]

Sure thing

Torc of Raiyum De-II - From the Demon Queen raid gives a roughly 10% chance of regenerating spell points on being attacked.

Greensteel Concordant Opposition Item - Gives a 4% chance of restoring spellpoints and/or giving you +30 temporary hitpoints when being struck.

FYI, these don't sound very awesome up front, but you'll be amazed and delighted at how well they work.

[Cartheron]

I have played a necromancer to lvl18 and my archmage to level 11. While I do enjoy the necromancers self healing+forms granting nice set of immunities the damage of the necro bolt, blast etc is not too much. Sure it lets you do damage when low on sp but they cant be maximised or empowered or heightened so when there is a save the mobs save a lot. When you get FOD in lich form you suddenly feel extremely powerful until almost everything and their little sister suddenly become immune to instakills....boohoo.

Archmage on the other hand (evo-focus) can nicely spam empowered+maximised Magic missiles + chain missiles. With proper focus and items the damage is much better then the necro thingies. My magic missiles hit for about 100-120 at the moment. At level I mostly one shot most mobs or take down the rest of their hp with arcane bolt. So most of my kills at my level cost 2-3sp. + Magic missile always hits and has no save. (sure shield spell and occasional LOS)

My plan is to have from evocation side up to magic missile and then enchantment up all the way.

I enjoy playing both but they do play quite differently.

Hmm...where exactly everything is immune to instakills at lev 18? Anything else than giants in Reavers Refuge? Get your DC higher, instakill stop working on epic, not earlier. Incidentally, lev 18 is the moment when mobs starts to have 800+ hp, have fun killing them with magic missiles hitting for 120 and with 6 sec cooldown. And you have to waste a feat to get this awesome damage.

Archmage is prowiding nice CC, its hard to get something more, especially that PrE cost alot of AP and its hard to be properly specced for damage enchantments.

[Tobril]

I have played a necromancer to lvl18 and my archmage to level 11. While I do enjoy the necromancers self healing+forms granting nice set of immunities the damage of the necro bolt, blast etc is not too much. Sure it lets you do damage when low on sp but they cant be maximised or empowered or heightened so when there is a save the mobs save a lot. When you get FOD in lich form you suddenly feel extremely powerful until almost everything and their little sister suddenly become immune to instakills....boohoo.

Archmage on the other hand (evo-focus) can nicely spam empowered+maximised Magic missiles + chain missiles. With proper focus and items the damage is much better then the necro thingies. My magic missiles hit for about 100-120 at the moment. At level I mostly one shot most mobs or take down the rest of their hp with arcane bolt. So most of my kills at my level cost 2-3sp. + Magic missile always hits and has no save. (sure shield spell and occasional LOS)

My plan is to have from evocation side up to magic missile and then enchantment up all the way.

I enjoy playing both but they do play quite differently.

Sounds like you need to boost some DCs.

You can wail/finger in elite amrath with a decent level of success.

Also, the numbers I see on the necro powers are 70ish (save) 120-140 (normal) 250-300 (crit)

Death Warded monsters are annoying, but you'd be pleasantly surprised the amount of things these effective free powers hit.

[Raiderone]

I have played a necromancer to lvl18 and my archmage to level 11. While I do enjoy the necromancers self healing+forms granting nice set of immunities the damage of the necro bolt, blast etc is not too much. Sure it lets you do damage when low on sp but they cant be maximised or empowered or heightened so when there is a save the mobs save a lot. When you get FOD in lich form you suddenly feel extremely powerful until almost everything and their little sister suddenly become immune to instakills....boohoo.

Archmage on the other hand (evo-focus) can nicely spam empowered+maximised Magic missiles + chain missiles. With proper focus and items the damage is much better then the necro thingies. My magic missiles hit for about 100-120 at the moment. At level I mostly one shot most mobs or take down the rest of their hp with arcane bolt. So most of my kills at my level cost 2-3sp. + Magic missile always hits and has no save. (sure shield spell and occasional LOS)

My plan is to have from evocation side up to magic missile and then enchantment up all the way.

I enjoy playing both but they do play quite differently.

I found that going only 1st 2 spells of Enchantment and 1st 2 spells of Conjuration
maximized my SP from taking Archmage I-V.
I toyed with Enchantment I-V and Evocation I-III but didn't like the major spell and AP
hit. Also taking into consideration, cannot add force manipulation enhancement lines
due to need Fire/Cold.

Plus when you think about it Hold Monster V at 15 spell points is too much considering
Mass Hold Monster (spell lvl9) at 60 spell points works is just as efficient if holding multiple mobs.

Probably PM is better than ArchMage overall due to self healing and similar DC's if not better DC's. But at Epic and High level quests, Necro SPells will suffer versus
Enchantment and COnjuration.

I'm staying Archmage V for now. Just don't like being a Necromancer too!

[Cartheron]

PM DC on enchantment and conjuration are exactly same (for chosen archmage school) or higher (on secondary school) thanks to yugo pots. If you will want AM and choose WF because of this, you are one more DC behind human/drow who will go PM with comparable survivability. I would really like AM to be better (my wiz is and will be WF), but unfortunatelly, its not a case.

[Artecon]

PM DC on enchantment and conjuration are exactly same (for chosen archmage school) or higher (on secondary school) thanks to yugo pots. If you will want AM and choose WF because of this, you are one more DC behind human/drow who will go PM with comparable survivability. I would really like AM to be better (my wiz is and will be WF), but unfortunatelly, its not a case.

NOT true unless the Pale Master takes SF Enchantment AND GSF Enchantment (or whatever school your comparing)

A specific school spec Archmage (except Necro) will ALWAYS have at least +2 DC over a PM (who doesn't take SF and GSF of that line), it will be +3 if your not chugging Yugo pots.

IMO if your a Pale Master and you take SF and GSF of another school, your gimping your feats. Some agree, some don't w/e. BUT if you do in fact take SF and GSF on a Pale Master dropping some of the "standard" wizzy feats, dropping those same 2 "standard" feats on the Archmage gains you at least another +2 DC of another school.

Archmage:
Feats:
SF:Enchantment
GSF:Enchantment

Enhancements:
Archmage Spell Mastery I: Enchantment
Archmage Spell Mastery II: Enchantment

Pale Master:
Feats:
SF:Necro
GSF:Necro

Enhancements:
w/e but NOT Masteries

Both Archmage and Pale Master have their places and playstyles. Be informed and have fun

[Jaid314]

NOT true unless the Pale Master takes SF Enchantment AND GSF Enchantment (or whatever school your comparing)

A specific school spec Archmage (except Necro) will ALWAYS have at least +2 DC over a PM (who doesn't take SF and GSF of that line), it will be +3 if your not chugging Yugo pots.

IMO if your a Pale Master and you take SF and GSF of another school, your gimping your feats. Some agree, some don't w/e. BUT if you do in fact take SF and GSF on a Pale Master dropping some of the "standard" wizzy feats, dropping those same 2 "standard" feats on the Archmage gains you at least another +2 DC of another school.

Archmage:
Feats:
SF:Enchantment
GSF:Enchantment

Enhancements:
Archmage Spell Mastery I: Enchantment
Archmage Spell Mastery II: Enchantment

Pale Master:
Feats:
SF:Necro
GSF:Necro

Enhancements:
w/e but NOT Masteries

Both Archmage and Pale Master have their places and playstyles. Be informed and have fun

first off, archmage also requires mental toughness, which is a feat the pale master need not spend (i've not seen many, if any, actually use the wraith form).

secondly, the pale master has lich form that grants +2 int = +1 DC, meaning that by simply drinking a yugoloth pot and assuming lich form, and without spending any feats on improving their DC, the pale master can get to within 2. if we presume the pale master is a human or drow while the archmage is a warforged (not necessarily accurate, but it is somewhat the standard assumption since that way you get the benefits of self-healing), that is potentially another point. then, if we presume the feat the archmage spends on mental toughness, the pale master spends on spell focus: enchantment, we're down to no difference at all. (and if human, even if the human versatility enhancement was not enough to make a difference, the bonus feat can be spent on greater enchantment spell focus, bringing them even, or above if the +1 int *did* make a difference)

particularly since, IME, the archmage is assumed to have two schools with spell focus anyways (usually some mixture of enchantment, evocation, and conjuration)

in necromancy DCs, the pale master will typically be higher than the archmage could hope to go. in their selected school, the pale master is quite likely to be the same DC, provided the pale master considers it worthwhile to invest the feats. in every other school, the pale master likely has the higher DC (so, for example, if you have your archmage ignore conjuration, the pale master will have better webs).

[CrescentCalling_5]

Well it really depends on your preferance overall:

Palemaster
Perks:
-Self healing fleshies
-Mixing the Extend Spell Metamagic with Death Aura gives you a near infinite supply of damage from Necrotic touch
-Gains you high critical ratio and damage with Negative Energy Spells (and a high DC, but that's from Feats only)
-Grants you Lich form

Cons:
-Negative Energy Heals Undead
-Although you have extra hitpoints and AC, you don't get enough to really matter
-Your DC comes from the feats you have to take, DC does not improve with Palemaster

Archmage
Perks:
-High SP
-High Spell DCs (bonuses from BOTH feats and enhancements)
-Relatively Low AP cost

Cons:
-Damage is not improved directly by the enhancement
-Spell Like Abilities are weak in general

[donfilibuster]

The thing is, though...

Archmage feels like a "Wizard" to me, or rather, a natural continuation of one. It's like how Assassin is a natural continuation of Rogue, Kensai is a natural continuation of Fighter, and Frenzied Berserker is a natural continuation of Barbarian.

this is correct. pm and am ain't supposed to compete except in the powerplayer's mind.
a necromancer would be that wizard that meddle with the dark powers, to the envy of the senior mages.

now, bit off topic, those who want more may want to suggest warlock to the devs.
It would be the nearest thing to have both PM's blast and AM's sla's. (maybe for sorc? retoric question btw)

[Aethene]

you are asking for this sort of advice and have not unlocked drow?

go get 400 favour and then come back

[Cartheron]

NOT true unless the Pale Master takes SF Enchantment AND GSF Enchantment (or whatever school your comparing)

A specific school spec Archmage (except Necro) will ALWAYS have at least +2 DC over a PM (who doesn't take SF and GSF of that line), it will be +3 if your not chugging Yugo pots.

IMO if your a Pale Master and you take SF and GSF of another school, your gimping your feats. Some agree, some don't w/e. BUT if you do in fact take SF and GSF on a Pale Master dropping some of the "standard" wizzy feats, dropping those same 2 "standard" feats on the Archmage gains you at least another +2 DC of another school.

Archmage:
Feats:
SF:Enchantment
GSF:Enchantment

Enhancements:
Archmage Spell Mastery I: Enchantment
Archmage Spell Mastery II: Enchantment

Pale Master:
Feats:
SF:Necro
GSF:Necro

Enhancements:
w/e but NOT Masteries

Both Archmage and Pale Master have their places and playstyles. Be informed and have fun

Is there somewhere a rule that forbids PM form taking SF ench and GSF ench? My PM has both GSF necro and GSF ench, so base DC is exactly the same for both schools for PM and AM. AM can get +2DC from enchantments, PM +4 int, +2 int from lich form and +2 from yugo pot - AM drinking yugo pots is suicidal. So, they are equal. And now PM gets +1Dc on necro. PM wins

[Zansobar]

So far I've done one pale master to lvl 20, on wizard with no PRE to lvl 20, and a archmage build through to lvl 12.

The standard wizard worked ok but wasn't as powerful as I would have liked but was fun to play.

The pale master worked great but is very focused in negative energy.

The archmage build is wonderful. Very versatile. Great CC and lots of SP. I would say not to waste to much permanent SP on the SLAs though.

I usually go human for my wizard builds.
INT 18
CON 16
the rest of the points spread to your preferences.

Ok couple questions then...

First if you are not WF, then Palemaster also gives you self healing and many many immunities (lich form).

Also Archmage gives you +2 DC to one school that you choose and +1 DC to a secondary, PM while in Lich Form gives you +1 DC to all schools (+int bonus). The only real negative to PM is you have to use two necromancy focus feats, so you in effect are one feat shorter than AM (AM has to burn a feat on the SP feat, which is of very limited value).

AM will have a lot more SP, but also costs more AP points and you can always use SP pots to have the same effective SP as an Archmage...you cannot however use cheap DDO store pots to gain the immunities and self healing ability of a PM.

Just saying PM and AM are much closer than some people think.

I would say the big think keep PM from being THE Pre of choice is the annoying graphics and sounds of the form.

[Requiro]

Archmage
Perks:
-Relatively Low AP cost

Uh?

• AM core: 4+1+1+1+1=9AP
• Schools: 1+1+1=3AP
• Sl-a: Depends: 0-8 AP (probably 1-2)
• Arcane Bolts / Blast: 1+1=2AP
• Prereq: Int 2+4+6=12AP, Scholar: 1+2+3+4=10AP, Concentr.1+1+1+1=4AP
• Sum: 48AP (full), 41 (partial), 33(best option, without AM V), 29(No: SL-a, AM V, One school)

This is low AP cost?

[Doganpc]

Lets see if I got this right as it applies to my situation.
I have a Drow Rogue/Wizard (13/7 planned) that doesn't get much play cause PUG's hate on flavor builds. Eventually (long eventually, unless I LR and optimize for assassin) I'm hoping to TR it into the more DDO friendly Rogue 2/Wizard 18 and it is my understanding that in this situation Archmage would better compensate for the builds loss of hitting power from the 2 rogue levels.

Dogan
as an aside, I'll probably build a pale master too cause they're just badass, just a different badass.

[Zansobar]

Lets see if I got this right as it applies to my situation.
I have a Drow Rogue/Wizard (13/7 planned) that doesn't get much play cause PUG's hate on flavor builds. Eventually (long eventually, unless I LR and optimize for assassin) I'm hoping to TR it into the more DDO friendly Rogue 2/Wizard 18 and it is my understanding that in this situation Archmage would better compensate for the builds loss of hitting power from the 2 rogue levels.

Dogan
as an aside, I'll probably build a pale master too cause they're just badass, just a different badass.

Well since you will have low sp due to low number of wiz levels then yes AM will help alleviate that...but its not about the DC's for AM...as has been pointed out AM only gets one more DC in a single school than PM gets in all schools. However, in your case AM probably matters more because you will have very low sp and lich form takes an additional 100 sp to enter.

[Guilllotine]

NOT true unless the Pale Master takes SF Enchantment AND GSF Enchantment (or whatever school your comparing)

A specific school spec Archmage (except Necro) will ALWAYS have at least +2 DC over a PM (who doesn't take SF and GSF of that line), it will be +3 if your not chugging Yugo pots.

IMO if your a Pale Master and you take SF and GSF of another school, your gimping your feats. Some agree, some don't w/e. BUT if you do in fact take SF and GSF on a Pale Master dropping some of the "standard" wizzy feats, dropping those same 2 "standard" feats on the Archmage gains you at least another +2 DC of another school.

I don't know where a WF Pale Master is "gimp" at all. The perk here is the WF will have more HP, and be able to self heal OUT of form as well, which does happen.

Feats
1- Toughness
3- Spell Focus: Enchantment
6- Spell Focus: Necromancy
9- Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
12- Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
15- Spell Penetration
18- Greater Spell Penetration

Wizard Bonus Feats
1- Maximize Spell
5- Extend Spell
10- Empower Spell
15- Heighten Spell
20- Enlarge/Quicken Spell (Your Personal Preference here)

[LunaCee]

I don't know where a WF Pale Master is "gimp" at all. The perk here is the WF will have more HP, and be able to self heal OUT of form as well, which does happen.

I'd suggest taking a look at the upcoming Half-Elf dilettante updates projected to come in U8. At 15th level a Half-Elf wizard with the cleric dilettante could have Human Adaptability INT for a juicy +1, a 95% chance of using Heal and Harm scrolls for healing in and out of form... letting them choose to either be AM or PM depending on their choice. Oh not to mention they also have the luxury of using things like FoM, Raise Dead, Divine Power, and Restoration off of scrolls as well. All for the mere price of 13 in Wisdom. Meaning one can skip putting points into CHA and UMD.

Which means one could have a stat spread of 11 STR, 8 DEX, 15 CON, 18 INT, 13 WIS, 8 CHA and have a perfectly viable character. A +1 STR tome at third take your wizard out of auto-incap range for ray of enfeeblement spam, a +2 Tome and Greater Adaptability CON kicks you up to 18 CON which you can further stack a +7 Item, +1 & +2 Exceptional, and +4 from Lich form onto. Oh look... 28-32 CON, self healing in and out of form. I'm seeing the fleshy caster having ~400-500 HP depending on gear and equipment. Which is certainly enough. Potentially even over 500 if one can score a +4 CON tome. Can the WF have higher still HP? Yup, but just how far past 500 HP do you really need here? Not to mention... one is talking an extra 4-11 AP for taking WF CON II & Racial Toughness III/IV to give them a significant lead. Otherwise the WF is only 20-40 HP ahead usually.

So no, I'm not calling WF gimp myself, just pointing out that WF don't hold the exclusive rights to being able to self heal in and out of form. Heck any wizard of any race can do so with enough gear and high enough UMD. The only major advantage the WF have is non-removable level drain immunity and the ability to hit a quickened reconstruct. So they can heal mid-fight without having to worry about a spell failing to cast. While those are significant... they aren't exactly anything other than a WF is gimp either.

[Guilllotine]

I'd suggest taking a look at the upcoming Half-Elf dilettante updates projected to come in U8. At 15th level a Half-Elf wizard with the cleric dilettante could have Human Adaptability INT for a juicy +1, a 95% chance of using Heal and Harm scrolls for healing in and out of form... letting them choose to either be AM or PM depending on their choice. Oh not to mention they also have the luxury of using things like FoM, Raise Dead, Divine Power, and Restoration off of scrolls as well. All for the mere price of 13 in Wisdom. Meaning one can skip putting points into CHA and UMD.

Which means one could have a stat spread of 11 STR, 8 DEX, 15 CON, 18 INT, 13 WIS, 8 CHA and have a perfectly viable character. A +1 STR tome at third take your wizard out of auto-incap range for ray of enfeeblement spam, a +2 Tome and Greater Adaptability CON kicks you up to 18 CON which you can further stack a +7 Item, +1 & +2 Exceptional, and +4 from Lich form onto. Oh look... 28-32 CON, self healing in and out of form. I'm seeing the fleshy caster having ~400-500 HP depending on gear and equipment. Which is certainly enough. Potentially even over 500 if one can score a +4 CON tome. Can the WF have higher still HP? Yup, but just how far past 500 HP do you really need here? Not to mention... one is talking an extra 4-11 AP for taking WF CON II & Racial Toughness III/IV to give them a significant lead. Otherwise the WF is only 20-40 HP ahead usually.

So no, I'm not calling WF gimp myself, just pointing out that WF don't hold the exclusive rights to being able to self heal in and out of form. Heck any wizard of any race can do so with enough gear and high enough UMD. The only major advantage the WF have is non-removable level drain immunity and the ability to hit a quickened reconstruct. So they can heal mid-fight without having to worry about a spell failing to cast. While those are significant... they aren't exactly anything other than a WF is gimp either.

Also, a helf out of form loses those lich form immunities, a wf doesn't. Helf still has to spend WIS and AP to really cancel out the WF healing capabilities too,also spend further AP to have a possible +1 DC, but at what expense? WF don't have to spend a ton of AP to have plenty of HP. The conclusion (thus far) overall, is that a WF is alot easier to hit these marks than any other race. Currently (U7) think the choices on race for a PM come down to
WF= More HP, self healing out of form and still has immunities (Much more survivability for 1 less DC)
Drow= Less HP, no self healing out of form, no immunities, +1 DC (Much less survivability for +1 DC)

Ultimately here's the kicker though. If you fail a spell due to 1 less DC, cast again, it will most likely land. The drow can't ever make up for what the WF has in that way, period.

[Doxmaster]

I find it interesting that wizards, of all people, are mixing fact with opinion so subtly.

[LunaCee]

Halflings have the healing marks for the cost of several feats, while they have a limited number of uses per shrine of them... they do not come out of the spell point pool, they can be cast in the face of a beholder, the Heal mark can still be used when under the effects of Feeblemind even... And between Heal Amplification on some gear and the fact that Maximize and Empower can be freely used on the lesser two marks? There are thousands of hit points per shrine they can recover. And early on my first wizard I capped when I started playing over a year ago was a Halfing wizard. So I know one can play these effectively... even in epic content. And in non-epic content a dragonmarked Halfling Wizard can be good enough to be the healer in a mostly self-sufficient party that actually has a clue.

For everything but the irremovable level drain immunity there is a piece of gear or two or three that can give a fleshy just as much of an immunity to said effect, and if dispelling isn't going to be screwing with buffs a Visor or two give fleshy player characters just as much immunity to level drains. WF are not immune to stuns and stat damage however, so its not like your natural immunities cover everything to begin with.

Failing by 1 DC adds up over time. Having even just an extra half dozen casts to catch those that just happened to make their saves can eat up a fair bit of additional spell points, spell points which could have been put to better use potentially later.

And it is only your opinion that Drow and WF are the only "good" choices. In all honesty any race can be used, but there is more in the eyes of many a greater payoff for using Drow, Human, Half-Elf, Halfling, and Warforged. Dwarf is occasionally seen and has higher hit points and better usage of axes going for them, Half-Orc would eat an INT penalty as a wizard but have significantly better melee, and Elf has that -2 CON handicap but could potentially bank on ASF reduction to allow them to use things like mithral shields for blocking and still have a very high chance to cast their spells correctly even with the shield equipped, or just forget about the shield and have a named armor on that grants beneficial effects that they desire for their character and play style.

Oh and Drow = No self healing out of form you say? *cough* UMD *cough* They start with +2 base CHA and putting another 2-4 points in at the start and getting one's hands on CHA items can give one an edge on getting that self healing via UMD.

I find it interesting that wizards, of all people, are mixing fact with opinion so subtly.

Yes it is interesting isn't it? Of course correcting for the slant is just things as usual when it comes to reading what someone has written. Though for some the slant correction is to simply take it as a joke. Mmm... gotta love the popcorn threads in the PvP forums now and then simply for what they are