17/3 Clonk STR Based?

[ekniff]

This may be a noob question, but why not just use kamas? Are handwraps really better than kamas with only 3 monk levels?

unless you find a nice potency kama, in which case it would be optimal to sell the thing to me

also, I believe valience used kamas for the shroud insight AC

[sirgog]

This is false.

OP mentions that they are not building for Epic and that they are looking more towards solo and casual play. There is nothing in OP's parameters that requires Mass Heal.

Note, however, that my post was only intended to point out a variety of ways that OP could fit 11 feats into 10 slots and to point out that based on his parameters other feats might better serve his purpose.

What may be generally good advice for the masses may in fact be poor advice for OP and their specific situation. Since he won't get that Mass Heal until L17 and is very likely to be looking at L17 at the character's 19th or 20th level OP could very well be better off without Quicken depending on a number of other factors -- all of which are determined by his purpose in the character and expected play style.

Mass Heal is very important in casual play. It saves mana that you can then use to do other things, plus casual players are less likely to carry metric tons of Heal scrolls.

In the Inspired Quarter (the casual endgame), a high Str, medium Wis clonk with Quicken can keep a whole group healed with a quarter of their mana per shrine, and can then use the other 75% for stuff like quickened Bladebarriers, Implosions (not very effective above normal on a Str base) and so on.

Not having Quicken means that every second or third time you try to cast Bladebarrier in combat, it will be interrupted.

I didn't call you names. Noting that claims of never being able to succeed at spell casting are fear mongering isn't name calling. It is, however, an accurate description of the inaccuracy of such claims.

Of course, having played a battlecleric that is fully able to fight, maybe I fail to see the importance of using spell points to kill things. And, having spent a lot of time on characters that can solo pretty big chunks of the game maybe I have trouble understanding exactly how often some people end up in the peril you suggest.

On the other hand, having been in the midst of many fights and not experiencing the problems that you note might also contribute to my disdain for your fear tactics. It isn't to say that spells have not occassionally been interrupted. But it is to say that it occurs so infrequently that it does not justify -- in and of itself -- the use of Quicken.

Taking note of all of that, though, only reinforces my original point. Quicken is taken primarily because it prevents spell interruption and the increased casting speed is a secondary benefit. Both can be rendered unneeded by shifts in how the character is played.

You see, my solution to a pack of Orthons is to beat them to death -- not to cast a spell and kite them until they die. So, I don't really need quicken for those situations where there are lots of mobs and just poor little old me.

And, my solution to the need for massive healing isn't Mass Heal. Other than noting that it is overhealing in many cases the other thing of importance is that outside of Epic content -- which, BTW, is not the content OP is building for -- there is no quest that I know of where spammed Mass Heal is needed for success. Quite the contrary, relying on spammed Mass Heal is a tool for power players who are pushing speed. It is the type of play that has little relationship to the kind of game OP stated they were building for.

On a Str-based FvS with Wisdom totally dumped, my approach is to melee down packs of 3-5 orthons, but if there's 8 or 10 or 15 or 20 of them, it's my crappy little 12 Wisdom Bladebarrier all the way (with a fair bit of help from Lightning Storm and Disintegration guards). They save 95% of the time, but they still die faster than any melee could kill them.



Oh and I agree - handwraps all the way; kamas if you absolutely, positively MUST have Shroud-crafted +4 Insight AC.

[AtomicMew]

Why are handwraps better than kamas? I'm assuming it's something item specific, since handwraps and kamas are both 1d6.

[sirgog]

Why are handwraps better than kamas? I'm assuming it's something item specific, since handwraps and kamas are both 1d6.

ToD rings with greater bane wraps >>> Greensteel kamas.

[gott_ist_tot]

ToD rings with greater bane wraps >>> Greensteel kamas.

Not exactly a casual non-endgame setup. If we're wading into this territory, we could as well add another pro-quicken argument, and say it will allow for more aggressive play, when the OP gets past his casual play and learns his things. Also, another argument of healing while standing toe to toe with melees in boss fights etc. etc.

Although I'd say Mabar event can be played pretty casual and the handwraps outweigh every random generated kama. Vorpal kamas are an option, not a direct replacement for everyday handwrap use.

And my 2cp for quicken - take it, it's very important. If you will not take it, your later levels will be resolving on developing techniques to compensate for not having it. Which is not bad, and can get you some improved insight into different tactics, but I don't thnk it's OP's goal, and he can always turn off his quicken and try to make his skills better. Alone, not costing his learning a loss to the party he's currently playing with.

[painindaguild]

mister taltalle storyteller. as were wading into another yes - no story.

i actually tried this build. (its still somewere on thelanis rusting away)

elf is best, same feats (since elf gets longsword prof for free) as human but with racial enhancements.

quiken is a must have. as i described earlier this build is not hard to play becus dps it to low, ur hp is to low or u got problems with agro or something.

the hard part of this build is time u need for all actions.

all finishers take time to use cus they take an movie with m.
setting up a finisher takes at least 5 seconds or more.

in that time u cant heal.

if u need to heal it might be simple to late due to the movie of the heal.

wat im saying, u need very good reflexes and a decent group (solo works fine) to make this work. ki building up, spamming finishers, trowing heals, its all stuff u gotta keep up. if 1 fails the others suffer.
this is a hard build to play well.
longswords only make ur dps and ki (criticals) build up a little easyer. but are imo worth it vs kamas spending the feats. (kamas suck, really hard, even handwraps do more till greensteel lol)

so to the quiken debate its a must have for the simple fact that time is the limiting factor for this build. u gotta fit in multiple actions in a small amount of time and less time to do 1 of these actions is good! makes it a lil easyer to keep ur finishers up. quiken makes this alittle more easy playable, wich is good thing for this "icandoitallbuild".



on a sidenote: mass heal without quiken is a joke. seen so many fails becus the healer was "conserving sp". only thing ur conserving with mass heal without quiken are soulstones.

[Cartheron]

If you are not going to raid, it means you wont have GS longswords. Random drop (lets say +5 holy of pure good) longswords are much worse than +5 holy of pure good HW, because HW have faster attack sequence (about 12% if I remember correctly) and full str bonus on off hand, which is big if you are str based. Additionaly, there is no to hit penalty for using HW, oposing to -4 using 2 longswords.

GS longswords are better than random drop HW without ToD rings, but hey, either you are raiding or not raiding

I have this kind of build (12/3 currently), using HW. Im not completly happy with it, because i went for pretty high cha and ended up almost not using DM, so i basicaly wasted few stat points. But I wont agree that its hard to play this build - its a breeze... I admit its sometimes difficult to set up fninishers, especially if you are forced into healer role by party setup, but aligning the heavens before buffing is a great asset, and when you have time to actually melee a bit, ki grows pretty quick. You can always grab a bunch of mobs, kite through BB, mop up few last ones with melee, fire the water finisher and run for another group.

I think that maximize, extend, quicken and emp healing are musts if you have at least 12 levels of cleric - emp healing for RS, rest for BB - especialy when you solo, no melee dps you can make will kill 20+ mobs as fast as maximized BB, not maximizing BB is waste of time and sp. And if you have 20 mobs chasing you, have fun putting up a BB without quicken

[Junts]

Why are handwraps better than kamas? I'm assuming it's something item specific, since handwraps and kamas are both 1d6.

As mentioned by a previous poster, the handwrap animation sequence is about 10% faster than other attack types, and there is no half strength bonus for the offhand attacks, or any to-hit penalties for dual wielding.

Handwraps are better.

Kamas are so bad that they're literally only good for vorpalling, whether you have 1 monk level or 20. They are that terrible.

[neclon]

Seems like the short answer is handwraps are better for what you're trying to accomplish. Use the feats on the caster stuff. Get the necessaries for making unarmed effective. And done. All you've really compromised is maybe the aesthetics you might have preferred of using longswords. DPSwise unarmed is at least competitive if not better than what you would have had with longswords.

You can carry around some longswords with good caster boosts and just whack things with em cuz you like the look of it when in groups if you want (shhh, no one will know you aren't doing lots of dps).

But toss them and punch things to death in the face when you really need to be effective.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

So again thanks to all who responded.

I have already rolled this toon with the longsword set-up in my PD guild, undoubtedly he will die. When he does I will probably go with the handwrap option. I the penalty to hit is very significant while using longswords, and as I am making the build str based, losing that extra 1/2 str penalty to my offhand is noticable as early as level 4.

That said.

Somebody mentioned the difficulty of playstyle. This is part of the reason I am rolling this build. Playing a plain dps, or a plain healbot is boring to me. I like complexity. I appreciate the heads up. This build will eventually exit my PD guild and rejoin normal play, my first non PD toon in over a year. That is a large part of the reason I am trying to perfect it now... I hate PUGs.

So my next, and final!, question is since I have decided that handwraps is the way to go, with the possible exception of vorpal and para kamas, should I just go weapon finesse to actually get some AC? Or will the higher dps and self healing of this build be enough for my survival?


Thanks again!

[Cartheron]

I forgot to mention 1 thing - you were concerned about being uncentered after equiping sup pot VI item, someone suggested using sup pot kama - they are very expensive usually, and you can easily get by using sup pot VI quatterstaff - it will let you stay centered and cast, and is dirt cheap. You wont be able to equip anything off hand, so no skiver or greenblade for crit chance, but since it is going to be PD toon, you shouldnt worry much about it now

Regarding weapon finesee and AC - getting nice AC is possible on such a build - look at Valiance masterpiece And after that look at list of equipment he use From my experience - go full str, get some kind of DR (bloodrage symbiont, golden greaves, whatever), some healing amplification and you will be perfectly fine.

[Junts]

There's no longer a need for a superior potency kama; use an efficacy clicky.

[Cartheron]

While I agree that effiacy clickies are an option, I find them extremally annoying - with 1 minute duration using them is not very comfortable. But of course if you have some arcane lore on a weapon, they are more powerful than sup pot qstaff. I would choose qstaff for convenience and clickie from time to time for power Or just try to get either blue dragonscale armor or sup pot VI neck

[Arlathen]

Fantastic thread. I've only 'skimmed' read it so far but wil ldefinitly take another look through the arguments of Longsword vs. Unarmed and Handwraps.

Onto my opinions and viewpoints.

Firstly, I've a pair of melee toons on Thelanis currently who are both xxx 12 / Monk 7 / Rogue 1 style builds that use Whirling Steel Strike and are tailored as Light Monks for Fists of Light and Healing Ki. I therefore think I've had enough experience with WSS and Longswords to comment.

Longsword DPS is very meh at best. As these two characters were my first on Thelanis, I equipped them both with Triple Positive Longswords, with Heal Amp +30% and Insight +4AC. The Holy/Good Burst effects are great for general utility damage against a wide range of mobs, and 'ok' crit profile of a Longsword helps stack larger critical hits over say a Kama or Unarmed.

Where Longswords win is for shockingly big Crits when using the Earth Fist of Iron and the Triple-Earth Finishing move (x4 multiplier!). With Improved critical and longsword crit range, these happen alot more often than you might think.

In addition, my builds used both Ranger 12 (100% Offhand, Favoured Enemy Damage) and Fighter 12 (Static Damage Bonuses through Feats & Kensai, Power Surge) to really help the Longsword DPS. Through items, Unarmed can easily compare to this and surpass it in my opinion.

But all this is conjecture regarding your build. The above really requires a minimum of 6 Monk levels to make it effective. And thus with anything less, is serious 'sub-optimal' compared to Unarmed damage.

Onto Healing.

With sufficient Healing Amplification, FoL and HK work excellantly. Although the Solar Pheonix build takes this completely overboard to a whopping 400% healing amplification, even Heal Amp in the 165% - 210%+ range makes this a viable personal healing ability.

100% Standard +20% Human +10% Monk +25% Jidz fire stance +30% Greensteel/Vulkoor Set = 215% Healing Amp, moving you up to +2/+4 HP heals from FoL. Two weapon fighting with FoL, either Unarmed or with Longswords, allows this to work very well.

So here for your Clonk Build, I'd say go Handwraps. I have no numbers to back this up with, but considering items (ToD rings and available handwraps) vs. Longsword experience and your limited Monk 3 levels, the Unarmed would work alot better.

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Now to really mess up your mind

I had a lvl 17 Drow Cleric on Keeper, that finally got transferred to G. Land. While I've been playing on Thelanis for the past year, I've been wondering what to do with him over and over and over repeatedly. I've contemplated several Cleric 18/Monk 2 TWF builds, pure cleric builds, Melee & Healing builds that dump offensive casting, and tried to get my head around ever possible option of combining Melee, Healing and Offensive Casting.

Not willing to TR, I had a Drow and 17 Cleric Levels to work with on a LR. I've not posted a build up yet, as after two days of playing his new build, he's coming through some tough trials.

Edit: Forgot to insert that I plan to Cleric 17/Monk 3, and am currently Cleric 14/Monk3.

But relevant to you, here's the basic path I went down:

Quarterstaffs & THF.

Its never going to be near Unarmed DPS, its not going to be as good as Monk 6 Longsword TWF DPS either ... but its working out pretty nicely so far for my new Drow Clonk running through the Vale of Twilight ina group and solo.

As Im forced to play Drow (and I'm happy to report after my current testing, Drow is the natural choice for this build), I've exploited the base 10 Charisma to gain Divine Might 3 in build. This is allowable, even with Radiant Servant 2, by the sheer fact that the Drow Racial Enhancements are all pretty much poo!

Featwise especially is good, as I can fit in the core Cleric Feats I want:

1. Extend
2. Empower Heal
3. Maximise
4. Quicken

And then the Combat feats I want as well:

5. ITHF
6. GTHF
7. Power Attack
Monk 1. THF
Monk 2. Toughness

Improved Critical is missing from the list, but that is handled in two ways:

1. Rahls Might
2. Mineral 2 Quartersatff

Rahls Might provides a nice Impact version (19-20 Crits), with D10 base damage, x3 Crit Multiplier and does Slash, Pierce and Bludgeon damage.

Mineral 2 is obvious, this is dependant on how confident I can grow mixing up Melee and Healing and being effective as and when required.

Fighting is pretty effective, but not stellar. Quarterstaff (D6) + THF Power Attack (10) + THF Str Bonus (13 = 28 Str) + Divine Might 3 (6) + Divine Favour (3) + Magic Weapon (5) = some decent static damage output regardless of staff chosen.

And a quick word about Offensive Casting: In Water Stance, I can hit 30 Wis currently, and my spells land without issue in the Vale of Twilight. I've estimated for a potential Build amount of 38 Wisdom standing, without strange things like Yugo Pots and Store Potions. Spell Penetration issues remain to be seen, but with my current 14 Cleric levels I wasn't feeling SR issues in the Vale.

Landing Cometfalls on Casters, sinking fighter type Mobs with Greater Command and seeing full damage numbers from a Extended, Quickened, Maximised Blade Barriers is pretty Awesome I've also taken Harm as a half decent single target Damage spell, and can land it for upto 200 Damage so far without any kind of nullification item at present.

And the glue that binds it all together is a careful usage of ALL available healing options. By utilising FoL for personal healing, Healing Ki, Radiant Servant Burst (Aura is ok, Burst is far better in my opinion so far), and then when required the occasional cure/mass cure/heal from SP, I've been keeping groups going through the vale without issue.

I'm currently at 9 turns atm without a decent Charisma item, and its plenty for running Divine Might and Positive Aura Bursts when and as I want. I'd love the recharge to be a bit quicker, but a few more extra turns from higher Charisma and Enhancements will give me more than plenty to work with.

There's alot more for me to wax lyrical about in this build, but before I put a full Build Post up I need to gather a few more key items and test out my build in Raids etc.

[hokies88]

that it is great for soloing as long as you stray at or 1 level below the quest. I have not had any problems with group play but again I make sure the group is not reaching before I join. I even did a couple successful tempest runs on Normal but I made sure we had a good healbot before joining.

However, with that being said I probably would not do it again as I screwed up my feat count by not knowing I needed LS proficiency with soverewign host. Losing that last feat is a killer. The only reason I have kept playing her is that I have a paralyzing and a bodyfeeding LS waiting at lvl 10. I am hoping with that combination the toon will perform better through the mid-levels.

The best thing about the toon is you can truelly take your time learning different dungeons as a solo player. If you are patient and wait for ki and aura to regen you can usually do well. End bosses can be tough however. TGhey key as someone said earlier is to be very quick with the keyboard. Lots and lots of keys to hit to kill the tougher bosses.

Good Luck

[Talltale-Storyteller]

So I have the build up to level 5 (3monk/2 cleric) in my PD guild, and definitely glad I listened to the posters who counselled to just use handwraps. Much more effective - even at low level.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Updated OP with an actual forum export. Would like to get some advice on enhancements and gearing. Thanks!