Stalwart Hate Generation allegedly works?

[grodon9999]

Stupid question - is 25/33/50% enough to actually hold aggro? I'm asking because I hate-tank on my fighter right now who's a Kensai. He's a split-class so I only have 12 fighter levels, I'm of the impression that I'll lose 33% DPS at least going to stalwart from Kensai . . .

. . . so what's the point?

[Necrological]

yup, the hate gen stances work, and it works a lil TOO good lol. just done a field test, the party i was with had an extremely hard time peeling one of the boss critters off of me. and i only intimed once. the rest was spank and tank while in DoS 3 stance so it should work nicely for stalwart defenders as well.

[grodon9999]

yup, the hate gen stances work, and it works a lil TOO good lol. just done a field test, the party i was with had an extremely hard time peeling one of the boss critters off of me. and i only intimed once. the rest was spank and tank while in DoS 3 stance so it should work nicely for stalwart defenders as well.

So it's looking like it's working better than advertised?

[Necrological]

oh yea, it works great. heh i only generate 120% hate.

I'll break it down for ya, and this is the gear i have:

full Levik's Defender set: 30%

ToD DoS set: 15%

DoS 3 stance: 50%

having DoS 2 PrE: 25%

grand total: 120%

more than enough for me.

[Hokonoso]

you can get another 25% from tier1/2 dt! hehe

[Necrological]

nah 120% hate is good enough, may take a lil longer but im ok with that.

[AylinIsAwesome]

oh yea, it works great. heh i only generate 120% hate.

I'll break it down for ya, and this is the gear i have:

full Levik's Defender set: 30%

ToD DoS set: 15%

DoS 3 stance: 50%

having DoS 2 PrE: 25%

grand total: 120%

more than enough for me.

That's actually more like 280% threat.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Stupid question - is 25/33/50% enough to actually hold aggro? I'm asking because I hate-tank on my fighter right now who's a Kensai. He's a split-class so I only have 12 fighter levels, I'm of the impression that I'll lose 33% DPS at least going to stalwart from Kensai . . .

. . . so what's the point?

At some future point, intimidate is going to be changed to have some kind of hate generation. They haven't really put out any details yet, but the 25/33/50 percent numbers are being setup for that future change.


Just from the straight numbers game a sword and board stalwart will not be able to hold aggro against a focused dps character, but we'll have to see how things stack up.

[Astraghal]

The only reason intimidate was worthwhile was because it guaranteed aggro for the cooldown.

Stalwart was only worth it for that reason alone.

[grodon9999]

At some future point, intimidate is going to be changed to have some kind of hate generation. They haven't really put out any details yet, but the 25/33/50 percent numbers are being setup for that future change.


Just from the straight numbers game a sword and board stalwart will not be able to hold aggro against a focused dps character, but we'll have to see how things stack up.

I actually should have crunched the numbers before guessing and given a few more details.

This is allegedly working now but I haven't tested it, others have . My "Stalwart" isn't a S&B heavy armor dude.

My idea for my fighter is what I refer to as "The Weekend Warrior." He's a 12/6/2 dwarf "Monster" build that started with 16 STR so I could still have good AC. The current plan is to be able to swap between Kensai and Stalwart just by switching enhancements. He's not full-****** on other DPS or defense but he's versatile enough in both roles.

My guild typically runs raids during the week. My plan is to be a Stalwart for raids Mon-Thurs and a Kensai for epics over the weekends. He'll have about 700 HP and a TWFing AC in the high 80s as a Stalwart. I however have no Intimidate (even with 23 ranks trained) and my only DR is stoneskin so some quests like EDQ he just wont' be able to do.

So regarding the numbers . . . according to AO's DPS calc my guy's BFD DPS (50% fort, acid immune, Evil Outside) is 323 DPS in a 5 Minute fight as a Kensai. As a Stawart with Combat Expertise and Ravager Belt off (allows for more AC and HP with my current gear . . .) his BFD DPS drops to 248, but with the 33% multiplier that's delivering about 329 DPS worth of "hate," 356 if I turn on Power Attack. These numbers sound a little low but keep in mind when people post 500+ DPS builds it's against 0% fort, no aggro, no elemental resist, and every piece of gear imaginable is in the calc.

So he'll be able to deliver more hate with 10 higher AC as a stalwart, and still should have enough HP to survive rolling a 1 against Horoth. Looks good so far on paper, hopefully it'll work in practice.

[sweez]

It actually does work, and it works pretty well. On my TWF stalwart I usually went into stance for all boss beatdowns for the extra str/con, since mobility really isn't an issue in most of these situations. Since the change, I've had to stop doing that in raids where I wasn't tanking, I was constantly stealing the aggro lol, and I'm pretty sure my DPS didn't magically increase overnight.

[Astraghal]

He'll have about 700 HP and a TWFing AC in the high 80s as a Stalwart.

Can you please show a breakdown of these numbers.

[grodon9999]

Can you please show a breakdown of these numbers.

Kinda, I'm not sure where it's all adding up but I'll try.

Dwarf Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 with starting 14 CON.

HP 595 (Minos, GFL, 3 Toughness feats, 80 points from ENH, +2 EXC CON on off-hand Khopesh, +2 Airship CON Shrine)
+45 Shroud

640 HP in Kensai-mode Rage + Madstone = 700. When I eventually get Tharnes I'll not wear the HP goggles except when I'm tanking, 600 HP is more than enough for an evasion melee.

640 HP + Stance (will even out CON as I equip a difference ToD ring for now) 40 HP + 40 Yugo = 720 HP. I still should be able to generate enough hate with the 5% slower swing speed at long as I get a head start.

AC Breakdown

Stalwart:

10 Base
1 Dodge
4 Icy Raiments Dodge
1 Alchemical Dodge
6 Wisdom
9 Dexterity
1 TWD
1 Monk
4 Insight (Shroud Crafted)
5 Protection
3 Barkskin Pot
8 Armor Bracers
2 Tempest I
5 Combat Expertise
1 Haste
2 Ranger Bark
2 Shield Clickie
4 Bard song
2 Recitation
2 Yugo
5 Airship (+3 Natural, +2 DEX and WIS Shrines)
3 Stance
2 Mabar Cloak
2 Stalwart
1 FE

86 TWFing AC - 84 if I don't bother refreshing shield clickies. I don't have the UMD to do the 10-minute wands as I'm horribly under-geared but will be able to hit this in my 36-point life (as well as 40 more HP from 2 more CON and a +4 CON tome is banked ). 36-point life is looking like 18/2 though with the 34-point life an 18/2 Pally.

Can add in more AC with the Chattering Ring, Epic Moron Helm and the Jidz bracers can add in more wisdom, Epic Spectral Gloves and a +3 Dex tome can add more AC as well but I don't have that yet (can craft the helm but it's gotta have the belt and I'm missing a shard).

[AylinIsAwesome]

I've heard that Combat Expertise is, in the near future, supposed to stop Rage effects from working, including Madstone.

That might be something you want to consider.

[grodon9999]

And it definately works. Just did hard VoD with an 83 power-attack AC. Criting for like 170-190 and held agrro with a group that hard very good DPS.

Tomorrow's test will be ToD . . .

[grodon9999]

Horoth on Normal was a complete joke, it was a blast because I'd never done it before. With CE on a TWF stalwart (44 STR I think?) was able to hold aggro with a WF Barb with an Epic SOS and some other heavy-hitters. Got 1 haste-boost worth of a headstart and held aggro the entire time. Only got hit by badges and meteor swarms, turned on PA after a while. He's easier to tank than Sulu if you're tough enough as he doesn't jump around as much.

No DR, no intim, no problem! Hate-tank stalwart is completly viable now. I would be nice to know if additional hate generation is multiplicative or additive though.

[Quikster]

Horoth on Normal was a complete joke, it was a blast because I'd never done it before. With CE on a TWF stalwart (44 STR I think?) was able to hold aggro with a WF Barb with an Epic SOS and some other heavy-hitters. Got 1 haste-boost worth of a headstart and held aggro the entire time. Only got hit by badges and meteor swarms, turned on PA after a while. He's easier to tank than Sulu if you're tough enough as he doesn't jump around as much.

No DR, no intim, no problem! Hate-tank stalwart is completly viable now. I would be nice to know if additional hate generation is multiplicative or additive though.

horoth has always been fairly easy to hold agro on. Once he agros on someone, it takes a lot to get him to change. I woulda told ya that if you can hold agro in vod, you can hold it anywhere as sullus agro is much more sketchy.

Of course I didnt read this thread then due to being on the road, and you have already learned this.

My stalwart (20 fighter) has been holding agro on horoth for a long time now. Always twf. I shoot for 76 ac on normal, 85 ish on hard, and 90 on elite. The biggest differences between the three ac wise are the outside buffs I need. The more outside buffs I can get I start dropping ac for dps. CE for PA, chat ring for shintao etc.

[grodon9999]

horoth has always been fairly easy to hold agro on. Once he agros on someone, it takes a lot to get him to change. I woulda told ya that if you can hold agro in vod, you can hold it anywhere as sullus agro is much more sketchy.

Of course I didnt read this thread then due to being on the road, and you have already learned this.

My stalwart (20 fighter) has been holding agro on horoth for a long time now. Always twf. I shoot for 76 ac on normal, 85 ish on hard, and 90 on elite. The biggest differences between the three ac wise are the outside buffs I need. The more outside buffs I can get I start dropping ac for dps. CE for PA, chat ring for shintao etc.

He's done VoD hard several times as a kensai, my idea is have a build that can do both Kensai and Stalwart with just an ENH change (free for level 20s ). I've roll with plenty of "real" tanks but sometimes they're on timer

90 AC for this guys would require either a Chattering ring, a Paladin, or a TR into a halfling. Would 720 HP hold up on elite for an evasion toon?

How do you get your AC that high wearing heavy armor while TWFing? Can you link me your breakdown? I know you and Spyderwolf have absolutely absurd TWF ACs on your tanks but my search-fu is weak.

[sweez]

I have quik's gimptimitank somewhere, lemme dig it out:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=245032

Pretty sure he's changed it around a bit in the meantime.

[Quikster]

He's done VoD hard several times as a kensai, my idea is have a build that can do both Kensai and Stalwart with just an ENH change (free for level 20s ). I've roll with plenty of "real" tanks but sometimes they're on timer

90 AC for this guys would require either a Chattering ring, a Paladin, or a TR into a halfling. Would 720 HP hold up on elite for an evasion toon?

How do you get your AC that high wearing heavy armor while TWFing? Can you link me your breakdown? I know you and Spyderwolf have absolutely absurd TWF ACs on your tanks but my search-fu is weak.

720 is fine so long as youre ac is high enough. Disintegrate is maxed on norm, so the damage is the same as on elite. His spells do more damage, but with evasion you should be able to evade some of the damage. The biggie is his melee attacks do more damage and he gets another attack per animation.

My build is here. I need a bard, ranger, full paly, ce, and a yugo pot to hit 90 ac twf without ship buffs. Ship buffs are nice, but I dont rely on them for the final fight in a 3 part raid.

Im in the process of a twf paly which will have similar hitpoints, and a bit more twf ac (less s&b ac). Hes currently 16 in life 2 and will go to final build next life. The problem is I also have a lvl 18 double tr, a lvl 15 tr, a lvl 11 triple tr, a lvl 7 double tr, am still filling out raid gear on my lvl 20 fvs, and am working tp grinds on argo and gland So i dont expect that paly to be done anytime soon