Race and skill choice for Wiz/Rog?

[tjaysteno]

I'd like to build a Wiz 18/Rog 2, but I was wondering about which race to choose. The three options worth considering are WF, Drow, and human. For reference, I'm F2P but have access to WF and Drow. I still need to earn access to 32 point builds (unless I go with Drow). Anyway, here's what I see as their benefits and drawbacks of each race as well as the stats I would give each of them at level 1 for reference.


WF - Str 14 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 6
Pros - Most hp of the races, easy self-healing, able to enter melee more easily when sp runs out (esp. at low levels)
Cons - Fewest skill points (more on this later), would have to wait until I earned 32 point builds

Human - Str 14 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 8
Pros - Extra skill point over WF, respectable hp
Cons - would have to wait for 32 point builds, self-healing is difficult but manageable at high levels

Drow - Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 10
Pros - Highest DCs, extra skill point over WF
Cons - Measly hp, self-healing is difficult but manageable at high levels, difficult to enter melee


I had always assumed I'd do WF for this build once I earned it, but after playing around with the character generator I'm second guessing that idea. The reason is lack of somewhat important skills. The skills I would like to max are listed below in order of their importance. Unfortunately with the WF, I only max 4 of the 6 and come close on a 5th (20 ranks out of 23). Drow and Human each get me 20 more points to play with (equates to 11 more ranks). Honestly, what I'd appreciate is for someone to convince me I don't need one of these skills (either OL or UMD) so I could just go with WF, but maybe that won't be the case. In the order of their importance to me are:


Disable Device: Do traps or go home. This build needs to fill the trapmonkey role or it's not worth its salt, IMO.

Search: See DD.

Concentration: Spells provide a fun and helpful diversion between traps, though spells are secondary for me.

Spot: Essential at higher levels when traps are sometimes random or when I forget where the static traps are.

Open Lock: I'm hoping that Knock is sufficient at higher levels. Can someone let me know?

Use Magic Device: The importance of this is apparent for human or Drow (self-heals), but do I need this maxed for a WF wiz?


I suppose this post boils down whether all those skills are necessary. If I can get by without 1 or 2, I'm going WF without question. If they are then I have to choose between hp and easy self-heals or more skill points.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'd like to build a Wiz 18/Rog 2, but I was wondering about which race to choose. The three options worth considering are WF, Drow, and human. For reference, I'm F2P but have access to WF and Drow. I still need to earn access to 32 point builds (unless I go with Drow). Anyway, here's what I see as their benefits and drawbacks of each race as well as the stats I would give each of them at level 1 for reference.


WF - Str 14 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 6
Pros - Most hp of the races, easy self-healing, able to enter melee more easily when sp runs out (esp. at low levels)
Cons - Fewest skill points (more on this later), would have to wait until I earned 32 point builds

Human - Str 14 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 8
Pros - Extra skill point over WF, respectable hp
Cons - would have to wait for 32 point builds, self-healing is difficult but manageable at high levels

Drow - Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 10
Pros - Highest DCs, extra skill point over WF
Cons - Measly hp, self-healing is difficult but manageable at high levels, difficult to enter melee


I had always assumed I'd do WF for this build once I earned it, but after playing around with the character generator I'm second guessing that idea. The reason is lack of somewhat important skills. The skills I would like to max are listed below in order of their importance. Unfortunately with the WF, I only max 4 of the 6 and come close on a 5th (20 ranks out of 23). Drow and Human each get me 20 more points to play with (equates to 11 more ranks). Honestly, what I'd appreciate is for someone to convince me I don't need one of these skills (either OL or UMD) so I could just go with WF, but maybe that won't be the case. In the order of their importance to me are:


Disable Device: Do traps or go home. This build needs to fill the trapmonkey role or it's not worth its salt, IMO.

Search: See DD.

Concentration: Spells provide a fun and helpful diversion between traps, though spells are secondary for me.

Spot: Essential at higher levels when traps are sometimes random or when I forget where the static traps are.

Open Lock: I'm hoping that Knock is sufficient at higher levels. Can someone let me know?

Use Magic Device: The importance of this is apparent for human or Drow (self-heals), but do I need this maxed for a WF wiz?


I suppose this post boils down whether all those skills are necessary. If I can get by without 1 or 2, I'm going WF without question. If they are then I have to choose between hp and easy self-heals or more skill points.

Skills is easier than what I think you make it.

Past level 15 I think you'll find that you don't actually need to get max ranks in DD and Search. Probably, 15-20 ranks is enough though it would be best to find what values that you need.

Spot is not that great for your build. Low wisdom will mean that the times that you really need spot (fatal elite traps) you won't have a good enough spot score usually to see the trap. Best way to find traps is to know where the trap is, ask a party member or stumble around (or have the barbarian stumble around) until you find the trap and then disable it.

UMD is AWESOME. Self healing aside this is a very useful skill that will let you equip items you wouldn't otherwise be able to (Greater potency VII Lawful only belt comes to mind off the top of my head).

Concentration max is a no brainer.

Open Lock only needs 4-10 ranks. Open lock item, Knock spell are fine options.

Don't forget Tumble (1) and getting enough ranks in Jump to top off jump skill at 40. A few in balance are handy too.

WF is definitely the best race for this build. Why are you so keen on doing traps? After having played a build similar to the one you are proposing I'm going to make the next version a pure wizard instead as I prefer the extra feat and wizard capstone.

Remember, traps aren't all that important in this game. Being able to disable them should never be the primary purpose of a build as they are so easy in 99% of cases. Your wizardly duties nuking/buffing/CC will always take precedence.

[Phidius]

My personal opinion is that if I'm going to give up the wizard capstone, I'm going to do it to be as durable and versatile as I can. To me, this means Warforged.

Choosing Drow or Human to get 1 better DC isn't worth the loss of durability, IMHO.

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I had always assumed I'd do WF for this build once I earned it, but after playing around with the character generator I'm second guessing that idea. The reason is lack of somewhat important skills. The skills I would like to max are listed below in order of their importance. Unfortunately with the WF, I only max 4 of the 6 and come close on a 5th (20 ranks out of 23). Drow and Human each get me 20 more points to play with (equates to 11 more ranks). Honestly, what I'd appreciate is for someone to convince me I don't need one of these skills (either OL or UMD) so I could just go with WF, but maybe that won't be the case. In the order of their importance to me are:

Disable Device: Do traps or go home. This build needs to fill the trapmonkey role or it's not worth its salt, IMO.
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Yup, 23 ranks in DD.

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Search: See DD.
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I place a higher priority on Search - if I have to choose between DD and Search for the last rank, I take Search. This is only a problem when I'm trying to keep DD, Search, Intimidate, and UMD maxed.

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Concentration: Spells provide a fun and helpful diversion between traps, though spells are secondary for me.

...

If you are healing yourself with scrolls (all 3 races should), Concentration is very important. WF have the luxury of using a Quickened Reconstruct if they fail their Concentration check, but human and drow are out of luck.

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Spot: Essential at higher levels when traps are sometimes random or when I forget where the static traps are.

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Spot is the first area that I let slide, but I still try to keep it as high as I can. More often than not, the party's zerger will find the traps for me.

Don't forget it helps you to see sneaking enemies that your party members may not - it's pretty common for me to Mass Hold the sneaking mobs that the rest of the party were clueless about.

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Open Lock: I'm hoping that Knock is sufficient at higher levels. Can someone let me know?

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For most locks, 4 ranks and the best gear you can get will be enough. There will be some locks that are beyond your ability (or so I hear), but none that are essential.

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Use Magic Device: The importance of this is apparent for human or Drow (self-heals), but do I need this maxed for a WF wiz?

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You don't need it, but it sure is a lot of fun. Having 23 ranks in intimidate and 23 ranks in UMD open a world of possibilities - you can be the tank and the healer for the party!

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I suppose this post boils down whether all those skills are necessary. If I can get by without 1 or 2, I'm going WF without question. If they are then I have to choose between hp and easy self-heals or more skill points.

Instead of focusing on what's necessary, my recommendation is to focus on what's fun.

The WF 17 Wiz/2 Rog/1 Barb or 17 Wiz/2 Rog/1 Fighter are both a blast to play

[Phidius]

...
Remember, traps aren't all that important in this game. Being able to disable them should never be the primary purpose of a build as they are so easy in 99% of cases. Your wizardly duties nuking/buffing/CC will always take precedence.

My mind agrees with Wax on the importance of traps, but my hearts cries out in outrage

I derive an emotional satisfaction from handling traps that cannot be undermined with logic, regardless of how sound it is.

[jortann]

You may want to throw Dwarf into your character planner. You may be pleasantly surprised.

As for spot, there are a lot of people who say don't put skill points into it, but I think it is awesome. It helps as a caster, as you will be able to see bad guys sooner, and as a trap finder especially if you don't know where everything is. Also you will find stuff you never knew was there. Thats an added bonus I really like.




Join the Dwarf Revolution!

[lazyninja81]

WF - Str 14 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 6
Pros - Most hp of the races, easy self-healing, able to enter melee more easily when sp runs out (esp. at low levels)
Cons - Fewest skill points (more on this later), would have to wait until I earned 32 point builds

Human - Str 14 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 8
Pros - Extra skill point over WF, respectable hp
Cons - would have to wait for 32 point builds, self-healing is difficult but manageable at high levels

Drow - Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 10
Pros - Highest DCs, extra skill point over WF
Cons - Measly hp, self-healing is difficult but manageable at high levels, difficult to enter melee

If these are the build lay outs you're considering than definitely go WF! Looking at your human and drow layouts, not sure why you want to take 12 Wis for human. Will save? I'd be inclined to put them into Con. And with a 12 Con drow, you'll die...a lot. Drop Str and get more Con. But basically go WF

Playing a WF wiz/rog now, albeit a 32-pt build, and having a blast. The trapping ability (while not truly necessary) is very nice for those times you're running an elite quest with a couple nasty traps and can't find a rog. As for Knock, it's worked well for me for the most part. Had to roll a couple times in Xorian Cipher to unlock the chests. When I took my 2nd rog level I put a few more pts into OL and with a good escape item have not needed to cast knock since. Skill wise I've focused on Search, DD, UMD and Concentration. You can ignore spot imo. Either someone in the party will known where the trap is if you don't already. If not, evasion will likely save you. If not, well...now you know where the trap is.

[Guilllotine]

I agree with the majority, get warforged and 32pt builds, you won't even have this discussion. Patience will win.

[tjaysteno]

Sounds like consensus to me, I'll stick with WF. UMD and concentration maxed, DD search and spot near max, get jump to 40, and dabble in balance.

My next question is if my investment in Wisdom is essential. That's where I put the 4 extra points from 32 point build in order to buff my Will save and Wis-based skills. Someone said to put them into Con, but that ends up being 20 more hp at level 20 (right?) as opposed to +10% chance of saving against enchantments and +2 for spotting traps. Hold person and a powerful trap would both result in more than 20 hp lost. That was my rationale at least. I'm wondering if the 12 Wis is worth waiting for or if I should just start without it.

[frznvimes]

except you're a wiz so you'll have high will saves, and you're a wf so you'll be immune to hold/paralysis/sleep anyway