Frenzy and Death Frenzy

[Drona]

Hi all

Today i got my FB III. Used frenzy and DF along with rage in couple of quests in Vale to test it. It was wonderful on normal and a bit tough on hard. I was dealing good dmg but also lost hp a bit fast in hard. But I had informed my party cleric and he was okay with it.

My question is should i turn it on all the time or only in boss situations. How you handle this in epics?

Currently my hp is 570 with rage & pots.

thnx
Drona

[Cam_Neely]

As a mostly guild partier myself, I use both 90% of the time. The cleric I run with uses aura's almost all the time. He knows the best way to keep himself alive, is stick on my back, with my glancing blows keeping agro from him pretty well, and his aura and burst keeping me on my feet most of the time.

It gets a bit tougher with PUGs, but if you down a few cure crit pots it shows that you are trying. Work hard to stay near an aura if you can.

When you are having issues run only the second frenzy. It hits you for 1d3 dmg but does 4d6, while the first hits you for 1d3 but only adds 2d6.

If the cleric has issues try to explain to them that by taking the guy down quicker, he is getting one less hit on you, which is typically greater then the 15 dmg you take from frenzy.

Good Luck and Enjoy./

[Ciaran]

Hi all

Today i got my FB III. Used frenzy and DF along with rage in couple of quests in Vale to test it. It was wonderful on normal and a bit tough on hard. I was dealing good dmg but also lost hp a bit fast in hard. But I had informed my party cleric and he was okay with it.

My question is should i turn it on all the time or only in boss situations. How you handle this in epics?

Currently my hp is 570 with rage & pots.

thnx
Drona

First, and I'm not trying to be a smartarse, but get more HP. 570 when Raged and using rage pots is kind of low for an 18 Barb (assuming you're at least 18). My 12 Barb/6 Ranger/2 Rogue sits at 548 HP with no buffs, unraged. This isn't meant to thump my chest or anything, but just to give you a comparison. I did take Toughness twice, but that's totally not necessary for pure barbs (I did it to shore up the lower HP from Ranger and Rogue).

Do you have a GFL and CON6 item? Minos? Toughness? Shroud HP item? Argo Favor? What was your starting CON?

I wouldn't use Frenzy all the time. Boss fights where heals are getting spammed and you AREN'T the main tank are good times, as well as dealing with some trash, provided you can take the extra damage you are doing to yourself. If you are with a monk that can affect you with Curse of Healing the 1-3 hp per tick will at least partially compensate for the vicious damage and allow you to use it more frequently.

I typically use it in boss fights and for large trash fights, depending on what sources of healing I have available. I may use it more dealing with trash that is immune to instant death, again depending on what sources of healing I have available. If you have a healer that just throws out heals all the time and has auras, etc, adjust your use accordingly. Definitely can be less judicious with it in guild groups with good healers than in pugs where things are dicier.

Unless there's some way I don't know about, triggering Frenzy locks you into taking damage with every attack you make for a minute (not sure how long Death Frenzy lasts) so when you do decide to trigger it, make sure you can afford to do so (like make sure your HP is at least 85% of total and you communicate to your healer).

[s1pinup]

I usually break mine out on high HP mobs and bosses seems a bit over kill to keep it running.. but it really depends on what your dmg output is without it. As far as epics go yeah I seem to use it a bit more often than normal questing/raiding just to get the extra to hit bonus it provides not to mention the extra damage.

[Consumer]

First, and I'm not trying to be a smartarse, but get more HP. 570 when Raged and using rage pots is kind of low for an 18 Barb (assuming you're at least 18). My 12 Barb/6 Ranger/2 Rogue sits at 548 HP with no buffs, unraged. This isn't meant to thump my chest or anything, but just to give you a comparison. I did take Toughness twice, but that's totally not necessary for pure barbs (I did it to shore up the lower HP from Ranger and Rogue).

I'm glad you aren't trying to be a smartarse with that class split and feat selection lol. Not only do you miss FB III for 10% offhand proc, you also don't have enough spare feats to take a second toughness.



You should have frenzy and death frenzy active 100% of the time, your job as a Barb is DPS if you are losing up to 6d6 damage per hit, 6 str and extra crit multiplier you are not doing your job.

A TWF without madstones and a GS HP item will have HP at that level if specced for DPS. As you get better items and higher tomes this will become better.


lvl 20 28pt 18/2 TWF - 18 str 15 dex 14 con (WF/Dwarf)

12*18= 226 HP
2*10 = 20
14+6+2 +6 rage +2 pot +2 enhancements +2 hardy= 240 HP con
30 GFL
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 toughness item
22 toughness feat
20 toughness enhancements
= 568 HP

Add better equipment

10 SFL
20 +4 tome
40/80 madstone
45 GS
3 exceptional con
1 litany/epic cloak
= 155/195 more

if pure:

4 more hp from barb
2 more con from rage
3 more 32pt build

[Cam_Neely]

First, and I'm not trying to be a smartarse, but get more HP. 570 when Raged and using rage pots is kind of low for an 18 Barb (assuming you're at least 18). My 12 Barb/6 Ranger/2 Rogue sits at 548 HP with no buffs, unraged. This isn't meant to thump my chest or anything, but just to give you a comparison. I did take Toughness twice, but that's totally not necessary for pure barbs (I did it to shore up the lower HP from Ranger and Rogue).

Do you have a GFL and CON6 item? Minos? Toughness? Shroud HP item? Argo Favor? What was your starting CON?

Ya I agree and disagree some with this. Sounds like he does have most of this, but I doubt the shroud item, and probably no toughness. Pure barbs are very short of feats and taking 1 toughness requires tradeoffs (typically dropping Stunning blow, or IC:Slash if they have a MinII). I started with 16 con, have GFL, Con6, Minos and Argo and sit at 600/620 Raged at lv20. Also for a newish join date (similar to mine ) he probably had a 28 point build.

But, 20-40 HP is not going to make a huge difference reguarding Frenzy itself, but more of the actual tanking ability for more difficult quests and levels (ie elite and epic). That being said, more HP is always nice if you are willing to put up with what you lose to get it (I was not willing to pass up SB, and thinking of dropping IC now that I have my MinII axe)

[stoolcannon]

First, and I'm not trying to be a smartarse, but get more HP. 570 when Raged and using rage pots is kind of low for an 18 Barb (assuming you're at least 18). My 12 Barb/6 Ranger/2 Rogue sits at 548 HP with no buffs, unraged. This isn't meant to thump my chest or anything, but just to give you a comparison. I did take Toughness twice, but that's totally not necessary for pure barbs (I did it to shore up the lower HP from Ranger and Rogue).

Do you have a GFL and CON6 item? Minos? Toughness? Shroud HP item? Argo Favor? What was your starting CON?

I wouldn't use Frenzy all the time. Boss fights where heals are getting spammed and you AREN'T the main tank are good times, as well as dealing with some trash, provided you can take the extra damage you are doing to yourself. If you are with a monk that can affect you with Curse of Healing the 1-3 hp per tick will at least partially compensate for the vicious damage and allow you to use it more frequently.

I typically use it in boss fights and for large trash fights, depending on what sources of healing I have available. I may use it more dealing with trash that is immune to instant death, again depending on what sources of healing I have available. If you have a healer that just throws out heals all the time and has auras, etc, adjust your use accordingly. Definitely can be less judicious with it in guild groups with good healers than in pugs where things are dicier.

Unless there's some way I don't know about, triggering Frenzy locks you into taking damage with every attack you make for a minute (not sure how long Death Frenzy lasts) so when you do decide to trigger it, make sure you can afford to do so (like make sure your HP is at least 85% of total and you communicate to your healer).

It really depends on his gear/feat selection.

If he started with at least 16 con (which he should have) and isn't geared (i.e. no ToD set) he should be targeting around 600HP raged (assuming he selected stunning blow instead of toughness). If he selected toughness it should be closer to 700 at level 20.

I know that until I got my ToD set and madstones I was at about 600 max on a dwarf FB3 with a 16 base con, +2 tome, +6 item + rage + barb rage.

Once I swapped to toughness, got madstones, +2 guild buff, +45 shroud item, + GFL I am now at around 867 with double madstone.

[Dsav101]

Unless it is a new healer that i do not know at all (and doesn't seem keen on the idea) I keep Frenzy and death frenzy on at all times for the most part. IMHO the mob do indeed go down just that much faster to justify it. I do usually run with guild healers though Hope this helps!

-Hustler

[stoolcannon]

Also I never, ever turn death frenzy off. BUT I didn't know Frenzy and Death Frenzy stacked much to my shame. I've been costing myself a lot of DPS without knowing it.

[Ciaran]

I'm glad you aren't trying to be a smartarse with that class split and feat selection lol. Not only do you miss FB III for 10% offhand proc, you also don't have enough spare feats to take a second toughness.



You should have frenzy and death frenzy active 100% of the time, your job as a Barb is DPS if you are losing up to 6d6 damage per hit, 6 str and extra crit multiplier you are not doing your job.

A TWF without madstones and a GS HP item will have HP at that level if specced for DPS. As you get better items and higher tomes this will become better.


lvl 20 18/2 TWF - 18 str 15 dex 14 con (WF/Dwarf)

12*18= 226 HP
2*10 = 20
14+6+2 +6 rage +2 pot +2 enhancements +2 hardy= 240 HP con
30 GFL
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 toughness item
22 toughness feat
20 toughness enhancements
= 568 HP

You’re assuming I took Tempest. Three feats for 10% offhand chance is a bad buy. I ditched Tempest and took Toughness twice and picked up Quick Draw (which is underwhelming, contemplating what to swap it out for). The other benefits from Ranger suit my purposes for the build just fine.

I guess the HP while double raged (meaning Rage ability and Rage potion/spell) just looked kind of lowish assuming pure Barb at 18.

I don’t agree with having them active 100% of the time. If the damage from vicious is only hastening your demise then you REALLY aren’t doing your job if you are dead, are you? For taking out trash you’re better served using vorpals (especially if you find one with a nice kicker, like PG) instead of doing needless damage to yourself. For trash that can’t be instant-killed then yes, Frenzy/Death Frenzy helps drop them quicker. Personally I just think it’s situational and you have to read the situation. I'll use Frenzy just on a lark for extra DPS evening dual-wielding +4 vorpal of pure good/+3 vorpal of maiming khopeshes. When I vorpal them it just means less incoming vicious damage.

[Ciaran]

Ya I agree and disagree some with this. Sounds like he does have most of this, but I doubt the shroud item, and probably no toughness. Pure barbs are very short of feats and taking 1 toughness requires tradeoffs (typically dropping Stunning blow, or IC:Slash if they have a MinII). I started with 16 con, have GFL, Con6, Minos and Argo and sit at 600/620 Raged at lv20. Also for a newish join date (similar to mine ) he probably had a 28 point build.

But, 20-40 HP is not going to make a huge difference reguarding Frenzy itself, but more of the actual tanking ability for more difficult quests and levels (ie elite and epic). That being said, more HP is always nice if you are willing to put up with what you lose to get it (I was not willing to pass up SB, and thinking of dropping IC now that I have my MinII axe)

Those are all very good points. It's just the double raged HP seemed low to me. Not horribly low, but just kind of low. I guess I'm just accustomed to 600-800 HP Barbs.

[Consumer]

You’re assuming I took Tempest. Three feats for 10% offhand chance is a bad buy. I ditched Tempest and took Toughness twice and picked up Quick Draw (which is underwhelming, contemplating what to swap it out for). The other benefits from Ranger suit my purposes for the build just fine.

I guess the HP while double raged (meaning Rage ability and Rage potion/spell) just looked kind of lowish assuming pure Barb at 18.

I don’t agree with having them active 100% of the time. If the damage from vicious is only hastening your demise then you REALLY aren’t doing your job if you are dead, are you? For taking out trash you’re better served using vorpals (especially if you find one with a nice kicker, like PG) instead of doing needless damage to yourself. For trash that can’t be instant-killed then yes, Frenzy/Death Frenzy helps drop them quicker. Personally I just think it’s situational and you have to read the situation.

If you need vorpals to speed up the killing of vale trash you've done something wrong. It is not situational, it is a high increase in DPS against all fortifications and types of mobs.

If your not taking tempest there is no point in the Ranger levels and you make a suboptimal build even worse.

[stoolcannon]

You’re assuming I took Tempest. Three feats for 10% offhand chance is a bad buy. I ditched Tempest and took Toughness twice and picked up Quick Draw (which is underwhelming, contemplating what to swap it out for). The other benefits from Ranger suit my purposes for the build just fine.

I guess the HP while double raged (meaning Rage ability and Rage potion/spell) just looked kind of lowish assuming pure Barb at 18.

I don’t agree with having them active 100% of the time. If the damage from vicious is only hastening your demise then you REALLY aren’t doing your job if you are dead, are you? For taking out trash you’re better served using vorpals (especially if you find one with a nice kicker, like PG) instead of doing needless damage to yourself. For trash that can’t be instant-killed then yes, Frenzy/Death Frenzy helps drop them quicker. Personally I just think it’s situational and you have to read the situation.

TWF vorpals are fine, THF you'll kill it with a lit II before you vorpal it. I still stay on top or close to the top of the kill count most of the time even in vorpal situations. For example, in vale most of the mobs can now take between 1-4 hits depending on whether or not I crit. Most other areas I'm not going to swing 20 times before something drops.

[Ciaran]

If you need vorpals to speed up the killing of vale trash you've done something wrong. It is not situational, it is a high increase in DPS against all fortifications and types of mobs.

If your not taking tempest there is no point in the Ranger levels and you make a suboptimal build even worse.

I’m puzzled by your responses, especially considering this thread isn’t about your problems with my build and the fact I never claimed it to be more than it is. It’s a versatile build that doesn’t slouch in DPS and no group has been sorry for having in it. -10% offhand isn’t all that’s good from Ranger 6. I merely offered my build and HP as a point of comparison. As I said before, it suits my intentions just fine. If I have to spell out the other benefits that I find worthwhile, it's probably a waste of time for both of us.

I probably misstated my intent by mentioning vorpals. All I mean is that if you don’t have reliable sources of healing incoming to mitigate the vicious damage you are taking (especially while hasted, using a boost and TWFing) then you are better served with vorpals with good damage kickers than killing yourself with vicious damage and having to slow down from encounter to encounter to chug potions. If you have a reliable healer and/or other sources of incoming healing (auras, Curse of Healing, all the things I mentioned in my OP to begin with) then by all means, go all out. It’s situational to, you know, the situation you find yourself in.

If you don’t have a healer or other sources of incoming healing and/or you don’t have the HP to get away with it, using one or both frenzies is most certainly situational or you’re just asking for trouble. I short man a lot of quests and raids with my friends and we don’t always have a character with us that is set up for healing. That’s rarely ever a stumbling block for us as we are self-sufficient and play smart. For me, playing smart means not using an ability that damages me willy-nilly, even with the DPS it might give when I have other options.

That said, I love it when I’m in groups where I can stand to be a tad less self-sufficient and just go all out. I’m well aware that my build isn’t max DPS, so when I can afford to go all out and contribute the most DPS my build is capable of, I do so.

[Carpone]

Always have Frenzy and Death Frenzy active. It's the point of being a Barbarian in DDO.

[stainer]

I have a FB III Barbarian and I run frenzy/death frenzy as often as I remember to punch the button. I also have a cleric and I come prepared to heal your frenzied self damaging self. Now the WF barbs that think "Healers Friend" means sending me love letters are a little frustrating, but I am even prepared for them.

[Mr.Tripod]

I hate when you have so many buffs (I know that's not a real problem) you can't see the timer on the FB at the top of the screen. I like to hit it just before it runs out so it resets. I do that all the time.

If I can't see it, I'll just look at the damage being handed out, and if the FB ones are gone then I know it's time to hit it again.

I don't keep both of mine on ALL the time, but that extra multiplier is REALLY nice. As long as you have decent healers, you should have it on most of the time. Compared to the damage you do to the trash mobs, what you take in return is a small price to pay. If you didn't take Barb to DPS, then what did you take it for

[Shuleagh]

Consumer already said everything I wanted to say. I'll just echo the statement, Frenzy and Death Frenzy aren't optional. Have it up all the time.

[Drona]

HI guys

thnx for replying ! guess i should have given more info about my build as well.

Level 18 WF barb:

str - 18
con - 18

no tomes, no tufness feat. Only created GS great axe now. imp.false life from bracers. thts abt it.

i will try to get my HP to 600 - 800 range asap.

once again, thnx all

Drona

[Khanyth]

Always have Frenzy and Death Frenzy active. It's the point of being a Barbarian in DDO.

QFT..... kill kill kill kill and kill.

The only time I am selective about using F/DF, is when I'm soloing. But if there's a healer, you bet it's perma on and being refreshed every minute.

If you're worried about the cleric, do 3 things to make sure you'll never **** them off:

1. Do your job right by killing mobs quickly and effeciently
2. Don't be a mana sponge by taking unnecessary risks and being reckless
3. Throw out the occasional thank you for heals and a thank you everytime for ress's

and if the cleric has gone above and beyond the call of duty

4. Throw them a mana pot or 2 and some scrolls.