The race for a Monk?

[AylinIsAwesome]

There is a lot of value in playing a high survivability monk stressing the combination of AC, evasion and saving throws. This argues strongly for a DEX based character and there is little question that halfling offers the best race because of the healing dragonmarks and size bonus to AC.

The issue is damage output which can be relatively low due to STR issues. This is a problem for any DEX based build.

The alternative is a STR based build and that means giving up some AC. Half-orc seems a logical choice for this as it starts with a higher base STR and has STR enhancments.

The issue with this approach is survivability and especially self-healing.

Splashing a single level of an appropriate healing class is one alternative. I do that with my warforged monk (18 monk/1 wizard at the present time). You have to weigh whether giving up the capstone enhancement is worth the splash.

For most people I would advise choosing halfling and going DEX based. But other choices have advantages that figure in based on other build factors. I went with warforged for higher initial AC, early immunities, underwater action (ie, don't need air) and higher HP (due to higher CON and CON enhancements). I calculated that dragontouched docents gave the equivalent of +3 to AC which is 6 stat points in either DEX or WIS (or a combination of the two). By my estimates that balanced out halfling (drow or elf as well) DEX advantages.

So, there is probably no single right answer. But, in general terms I think halfling with healing marks gives the best first choice in most cases.

A Halfling would want:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Philosophy Path
PrE pre-req (either Dodge or Cleave/Luck of Heroes)
Stunning Fist
Toughness
Weapon Finesse
Least Dragonmark of Healing
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Greater Dragonmark of Healing

That's 13 feats. You only get 11.

[ghettoGenius]

Quarterstaves are so ridiculously bad they shouldn't even be considered. Horcs are actually better for TWF than THF in many cases too...like in the case with Monks.

Not sure where you are coming from with this. The melee enhancements only help horc THF, and +4 to damage is like +8 strength. Compare a non-horc TWF to a horc TWF, at a basic level the horc only gets +1 damage to his main hand.

Anyways my Hogzilla build went with the melee enh line early to squeeze more dps out of the early levels and I know I will miss THF with my quarterstaves. The extra damage is incredible during the 1-10 lvls. He's 10 now, and in 1 more lvl I will respec for ToD and probably put the staffs away. As base unarmed damage goes up the difference isnt quite so bad but 1d6 + 33 beats 1d10 + 17 ( I think a recent comparison I made was close to this). I frequently out damage/kill everyone in the party, even lazy horc barbs.

In my case I dont use stunning fist, but I can get bonus to stun blow through staff.

In my experience I'd have to say pure monks should go unarmed in the 12+ lvls (definitely at 20) as their unarmed damage will outweigh staffs eventually, but they can be much more effective during the lower lvls.

[Therigar]

A Halfling would want:

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Philosophy Path
PrE pre-req (either Dodge or Cleave/Luck of Heroes)
Stunning Fist
Toughness
Weapon Finesse
Least Dragonmark of Healing
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Greater Dragonmark of Healing

That's 13 feats. You only get 11.

There is a lot of difference between what a player might want and what a player might get. Enough of a difference that I'd say most players have to make choices and not take feats that they want as a result.

The issue isn't what would a player want but rather which of those will they take and why? Note that there are ways around the numbers if a player is willing to multiclass. Two fighter levels will get you there easily. Note further that pursuing a STR based build eliminates the need for one of the feats (at the cost of AC and Reflex saves).

So, while the observation may have some validity it doesn't really invalidate the recommendation. Choosing a different race reintroduces the healing issue without adequately eliminating the use of multiclassing as a possible solution. Of course, a player could choose Light path and use some of the innate healing along that path.

Doing so could eliminate the requirement for all of the dragonmarks. I'm not sure that it would alter the other benefits of being halfling for the majority of players.

[Therigar]

Not sure where you are coming from with this. The melee enhancements only help horc THF, and +4 to damage is like +8 strength. Compare a non-horc TWF to a horc TWF, at a basic level the horc only gets +1 damage to his main hand.

Anyways my Hogzilla build went with the melee enh line early to squeeze more dps out of the early levels and I know I will miss THF with my quarterstaves. The extra damage is incredible during the 1-10 lvls. He's 10 now, and in 1 more lvl I will respec for ToD and probably put the staffs away. As base unarmed damage goes up the difference isnt quite so bad but 1d6 + 33 beats 1d10 + 17 ( I think a recent comparison I made was close to this). I frequently out damage/kill everyone in the party, even lazy horc barbs.

In my case I dont use stunning fist, but I can get bonus to stun blow through staff.

In my experience I'd have to say pure monks should go unarmed in the 12+ lvls (definitely at 20) as their unarmed damage will outweigh staffs eventually, but they can be much more effective during the lower lvls.

In general quarterstaves are inferior to handwraps but that certainly does not hold true at the very early levels. The half-orc THF abilities push this out deeper into a build's life. You could be right that the break point comes somewhere at or after L12.

I recently was on an alt running Stormcleave and a quarterstaff wielding character easily outdistanced everyone in the kill count -- usually running ahead solo and having the mobs dead around them by the time we all caught up. As we were all L7 or below and he was not TR'd it was pretty impressive.

One area where it can matter is in the "boss beater" category where getting handwraps is difficult. Quarterstaff should not be discounted out of hand.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Not sure where you are coming from with this. The melee enhancements only help horc THF, and +4 to damage is like +8 strength. Compare a non-horc TWF to a horc TWF, at a basic level the horc only gets +1 damage to his main hand.

Anyways my Hogzilla build went with the melee enh line early to squeeze more dps out of the early levels and I know I will miss THF with my quarterstaves. The extra damage is incredible during the 1-10 lvls. He's 10 now, and in 1 more lvl I will respec for ToD and probably put the staffs away. As base unarmed damage goes up the difference isnt quite so bad but 1d6 + 33 beats 1d10 + 17 ( I think a recent comparison I made was close to this). I frequently out damage/kill everyone in the party, even lazy horc barbs.

In my case I dont use stunning fist, but I can get bonus to stun blow through staff.

In my experience I'd have to say pure monks should go unarmed in the 12+ lvls (definitely at 20) as their unarmed damage will outweigh staffs eventually, but they can be much more effective during the lower lvls.

By going Quarterstave instead of unarmed you lose ~12% attack speed, possible burst effects on rings (which all Monks should aim for), and you get less benefit from your STR (1.5 from THF as opposed to 1.8 from unarmed; unarmed grants full STR bonus to each hand). Plus any other on-hit effects you might have, like Sneak Attack, get a lot less out of THF than Unarmed would (only ~56% of the benefit).

There is a lot of difference between what a player might want and what a player might get. Enough of a difference that I'd say most players have to make choices and not take feats that they want as a result.

The issue isn't what would a player want but rather which of those will they take and why? Note that there are ways around the numbers if a player is willing to multiclass. Two fighter levels will get you there easily. Note further that pursuing a STR based build eliminates the need for one of the feats (at the cost of AC and Reflex saves).

So, while the observation may have some validity it doesn't really invalidate the recommendation. Choosing a different race reintroduces the healing issue without adequately eliminating the use of multiclassing as a possible solution. Of course, a player could choose Light path and use some of the innate healing along that path.

Doing so could eliminate the requirement for all of the dragonmarks. I'm not sure that it would alter the other benefits of being halfling for the majority of players.

Splashing gives up the DR 10/Epic, which hampers survivability a lot.

The feats I listed were the feats you used to recommend Halfling (3x Dragonmarks, Weapon Finesse for AC and Reflex save) with everything that a good Monk would need (Path, PrE pre-req, TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Improved Critical, Toughness, Power Attack, Stunning Fist).

My point was that it is impossible to build a Halfling Monk the way you suggest without splashing, and splashing anything into a Monk is generally bad as it lowers your DCs (Stunning Fist and ToD), you lose 1 AC, DR 10/Epic, the ability to hold significantly more Ki...ect.

[ghettoGenius]

By going Quarterstave instead of unarmed you lose ~12% attack speed, possible burst effects on rings (which all Monks should aim for), and you get less benefit from your STR (1.5 from THF as opposed to 1.8 from unarmed; unarmed grants full STR bonus to each hand). Plus any other on-hit effects you might have, like Sneak Attack, get a lot less out of THF than Unarmed would (only ~56% of the benefit).

Im not arguing that pure monks (even horc monks) should use a staff at higher levels (which is where youll find the numbers you are claiming above) ... yet. As I have not leveled my monk past 10 or explored the various staffs available then, I cant claim that setup would be better or worse than unarmed (although Ill venture a guess it wont match it). Dont discount the increased range of a staff either.

However it is quite clear that a horc monk with a good staff will far outdamage one with even the best handwraps in the 1-10 lvls, making your blanket statement of "Quarterstaves are so ridiculously bad they shouldn't even be considered", quite the exaggeration.

[AylinIsAwesome]

However it is quite clear that a horc monk with a good staff will far outdamage one with even the best handwraps in the 1-10 lvls, making your blanket statement of "Quarterstaves are so ridiculously bad they shouldn't even be considered", quite the exaggeration.

Point, but why would you ever build for levels 1-10 in the current game?

[Fafnir]

Well, respecs are pretty easy if you have a lot of TP.

[Creeper]

However it is quite clear that a horc monk with a good staff will far outdamage one with even the best handwraps in the 1-10 lvls

I confess that this is not quite clear to me. Is the below quote the math by which you have arrived at this clarity?

As base unarmed damage goes up the difference isnt quite so bad but 1d6 + 33 beats 1d10 + 17 ( I think a recent comparison I made was close to this). I frequently out damage/kill everyone in the party, even lazy horc barbs.

If damage were calculated only per swing and not damage per second this would certainly be true. Do you know that monks get 40% from TWF and 60% offhand double-strike from ITWF? With the additional 10-12% attack speed from unarmed, along with elemental stikes often procing multiple times for unarmed double-strikes, how are you figuring that it is quite clear that the qstaff outdamages unarmed even at levels 1-10? Even using your numbers per swing it seems quite clear to me that this is not the case. In fact I can't, at the moment, think of another class that is crippled more by using THF vs. TWF than the monk.

[ghettoGenius]

I confess that this is not quite clear to me. Is the below quote the math by which you have arrived at this clarity?



If damage were calculated only per swing and not damage per second this would certainly be true. Do you know that monks get 40% from TWF and 60% offhand double-strike from ITWF? With the additional 10-12% attack speed from unarmed, along with elemental stikes often procing multiple times for unarmed double-strikes, how are you figuring that it is quite clear that the qstaff outdamages unarmed even at levels 1-10? Even using your numbers per swing it seems quite clear to me that this is not the case. In fact I can't, at the moment, think of another class that is crippled more by using THF vs. TWF than the monk.

Contrary to popular belief, numbers lie. Everyone is always busting out these DPS numbers but they are almost always so circumstantial or unsustainable (boosts/clickies/FE/SA/gear/etc). Under perfect conditions yes those values are correct, but in reality most toons DPS falls short of what they calculated on paper because you are never just standing still wailing on things (perhaps maybe raid bosses but we are talking about lvls 1-10 here remember).

Point Im trying to make is while staff may be less base damage and no offhand attacks, I have found it to be much more effective at lower levels (for my horc specifically) due to the damage enhancements, 1.5 str modifier and increased range.

And to address a previous question about respecs, there are no feat respecs involved in this build. I simply took the TWF feats (at 3 and 9 iirc) and the THF horc enhancements until I was ready to go handwraps all the way at which point I lost the horc enhancements and picked up ToD.

I only have my most recent experience with this horc monk to draw from, but what I learned was that it was clear I was much more effective offensively during those earlier levels with the staff than I was with handwraps for reasons I stated above. It wasnt until about 9-10 I even thought I might be seeing comparable numbers with my best wraps. The numbers were simply bigger and more often (less misses due to proximity) with staffs. At 11 I respeced enhancements for ToD and havnt looked back because at that point there is no comparison.

[ghettoGenius]

Point, but why would you ever build for levels 1-10 in the current game?

From my perspective that is half the game.

[t0r012]

with the planned U8 changes on Lam half elves are starting to look tasty.
the deli selection offers some tasty treats (bad pun intended)
for survivability they offer a good portion of the human healing amp all by themselves along with the ability to up wisdom which only humans can do now.

want DPS? 3d6 from rogue deli is better than halfer AP line plus you aren't blowing points on cunning when you just want the guile.

how about some self healing cleric deli 95% heal scrolls and wands. Awesome for dark path with out FoL and still nice for the light path soloer.

pointing out you are going to meet the prereqs for both of those naturally.
same with just about all the delis except Int and Cha. Some might even catch the int later on qualifying for CE with tome.

yeah HE will be a very , very strong monk choice shortly almost no matter what way you decide to play your monk. light/dark/damage/survivability/finesse HE give you an option to improve it usually.

heck even the suboptimal options can be considered. Wiz for shield spell out side of clicky land along with other defense scrolls and some utility spells like knock. sure like I said not "optimal" but still brining some goodies that monks had to do the UMD dance to get before.

[Carpone]

My point was that it is impossible to build a Halfling Monk the way you suggest without splashing, and splashing anything into a Monk is generally bad as it lowers your DCs (Stunning Fist and ToD), you lose 1 AC, DR 10/Epic, the ability to hold significantly more Ki...ect.

A STR based Fighter and Monk work very well together for elite and epic raids. Your BAB will be better than a pure Monk due to fighter enhancements and weapon focus feats. Kensei I and 25% haste boost are amazing. ToD is just icing on the cake; it's not your primary source of DPS.

[Creeper]

Contrary to popular belief, numbers lie.

Numbers don't lie. Human perception and selective attention do.

[maestro973]

A STR based Fighter and Monk work very well together for elite and epic raids. Your BAB will be better than a pure Monk due to fighter enhancements and weapon focus feats. Kensei I and 25% haste boost are amazing. ToD is just icing on the cake; it's not your primary source of DPS.

Agreed, I actually ran through 3 lives of this sort of thing and as crazy as it may sound, my favorite was the last one that was built around the idea of leveling up as fast as possible, but as it turned out was pretty darn impressive at 20 too. Went WF 9 monk, 10 fighter, 1 rogue. Granted it was a pretty well-geared guy but I was able to put out some disgusting DPS (as stated haste boost IV is amazing) while still having oscenely high HP (hitting over 700's with ease). Had no troubles tanking everything, could even sit through the epic chrono fire-breath. Could hit pretty much every trap/lock in the game to boot.

[ghettoGenius]

Numbers don't lie. Human perception and selective attention do.

Just because your calculated DPS is 475.59 (or whatever) does not necessarily mean you are doing sustained damage at that level - or even averaging that.

[Depravity]

What race makes a good monk? Anything that does not have the phrase "elf" in it. Everything else works and has their own pros and cons. As for the min/maxers who try to squeeze every last point out of a char? Don't be that guy. Just play what you want and have fun, as long as fun does not include "elf".

Actually, the new dilettante enhancement lines previewing on the llama are making half elf look like a decent option.
Fighter dilettante comes with a chance at +1 str and +2 stunning DC (may or may not work with stunning fist, haven't seen anyone actually claim to have tested it yet).
Rogue will be able to push up to 3d6 on sneaks, for a total of 6 AP versus 12 AP for a roughly equivalent +9 damage from halfling.

Not optimal, but solid, especially considering they already get access to +20% healing from the human heritage.

**EDIT** Got ninja'd by t0r012. Uber ninja'd, by better than an hour. That's what I get for not refreshing when I wandered back from lunch.

[Creeper]

Just because your calculated DPS is 475.59 (or whatever) does not necessarily mean you are doing sustained damage at that level - or even averaging that.

It is if you calculate it right. The game uses numbers to calculate DPS. If you know how the game calculates DPS and input accurate values you have just done what the game does to calculate DPS. If not numbers, what should we use to calculate DPS?

[Carpone]

If not numbers, what should we use to calculate DPS?

Unicorns and rainbows, obviously.

I'll never understand why Turbine devs refuse to add a simple option to save the combat log to a file with timestamps like other MMOs. It would definitively answer "Who does more DPS?" for every fight.

[Carpone]

Agreed, I actually ran through 3 lives of this sort of thing and as crazy as it may sound, my favorite was the last one that was built around the idea of leveling up as fast as possible, but as it turned out was pretty darn impressive at 20 too. Went WF 9 monk, 10 fighter, 1 rogue. Granted it was a pretty well-geared guy but I was able to put out some disgusting DPS (as stated haste boost IV is amazing) while still having oscenely high HP (hitting over 700's with ease). Had no troubles tanking everything, could even sit through the epic chrono fire-breath. Could hit pretty much every trap/lock in the game to boot.

That's the build I have planned for my Fighter past lives, swapping Ranger for Rogue specifically for sprint boost. MrCow calculated he used sprint boost 4k times during a TR, and it shaved off hours of playtime. Yes please.