Which Bard PrE for me?

[Irinis]

dunklezhan, the spell CC really isn't an option anymore if you go melee at all. Once you don't have max CHA and max levelups into CHA, the DC goes lower still and it's no longer just -1 over a CC Spellsinger.

Since you already have 2 levels of rogue and don't want to heal, I would drop the idea of CC altogether and make a rockin' melee virt who uses Enthrall and Capering songs to full effect. Keep the bare min of CHA you need for the UMD gear you plan on getting/making. Quicken and Maximize for emergency self-healing, but not as much into the AP as a true healer Bard would do.

[Jaid314]

dunklezhan, the spell CC really isn't an option anymore if you go melee at all. Once you don't have max CHA and max levelups into CHA, the DC goes lower still and it's no longer just -1 over a CC Spellsinger.

Since you already have 2 levels of rogue and don't want to heal, I would drop the idea of CC altogether and make a rockin' melee virt who uses Enthrall and Capering songs to full effect. Keep the bare min of CHA you need for the UMD gear you plan on getting/making. Quicken and Maximize for emergency self-healing, but not as much into the AP as a true healer Bard would do.

indeed. my point was that a pure charisma-focused bard is plenty good at CC. don't take that to mean that if you dump charisma and focus on strength (which is basically necessary for melee) you aren't going to have any problems...

[Gorbadoc]

I've read a comment somewhere that if you're going virt there's no point maxing your CHR because if you can land CC spells effectively you may as well not bother with he Virt CC songs. I don't really understand the logic of that - presumably landing CC spells just gives you more options, doesn't it?

Suppose you want to fasten two boards together. You can use a hammer and nails, or you can use a drill and screws. Now, if you already have an upgraded hammer and nails, then why would you commit resources to getting the drill and screws?

Going for strong CC magic on a virtuoso is similar. It gives you a second way to perform the same task. Most people say, "Wait, I could instead spend those stats and feats on getting good at some task that I can't already perform."

Looking at this from the other direction, you want to pick a PrE.

• If you're speccing for melee, warchanter or virtuoso can work in terms of songs. Virtuoso saves you a feat (no need for Weapon Focus, though you'll still want Power Attack), so it's easier to fit in the full TWF line. For melee, I can recommend either virtuoso or warchanter.
• If you're speccing for casting (which it sounds like maybe you're not, with your dislike of healing), then virtuoso or spellsinger can work, but spellsinger has obvious bonuses to your usefulness as a caster.

[dunklezhan]

OK, thanks all. I think I get it now (those last three posts being clear and to the point).

Irinis - my existing bard has 2 levels of rogue. I'm considering LR for him, which would get rid of those two levels. Presumably as they were the first two levels I also get to redo starting stats too?

See now I'm into a whole new discussion about LR. I'll take that elsewhere.

Point being I'm not stuck on my existing bard at all. He can be changed, or I may even start again with a fresh one. This thread was to establish what build would acheive my aims and I think I've got there now.

Conclusion. Step forward Mr Weaving, please:

It seems that you have been living two lives, Mr Bard.

In one life, you are a warrior. You have a giant sword, which you use to kill the hypnotised audience of your mesmerising songs while they obliviously stand there, and then you go collect your XP, and all the way your Guild collects your renown.

The other life is lived at range, casting spells to stop your enemies dead in their tracks while your friends and co-workers slay them. You heal those same friends and co-workers should the spells not work, and you prolong the capabilities of the other magic users amongst them.

One of these... lives... has a future. One of them does not.

And I choose... to more or less ignore Mr Weaving and his attempt to force my hand, I'm a Bard and I insist on having it all! You could say, on the other hand, that I've listened to the Oracles and determined my own path that meets the goals of both lives: I will generate a new bard as a pure Spellsinger called, in the unlikely event that the name is available, Major Tom (as in, 'this is crowd controool to major tom...' never mind. I'll get me coat), and see how it goes, while continuing to level my gimped rog2/Bard to cap, before TRing into something that's built properly. Probably a pure Virtuoso with a dirty great two hander.


thanks everyone.

[Dilbon]

My bard is a pure virtuoso with **** melee ability. Doesn't really matter though with Dreamspitter. Otherwise I just sing songs and pike while tossing a few heals.