Which Bard PrE for me?

[dunklezhan]

There's two very good threads on the go right now, but I didn't want to step all over their toes.

I have a virt. He's a rog2/bard11 atm. He was my first main toon and I've had him about a year. But I don't feel he's all he could be. I'm probably going to LR him to go pure bard at some point, or I may even loot all his gear and reroll as the static group he was part of has broken up now. Haven't decided yet.

I'm naturally attracted to the Virtuoso as a PrE: great CC (enthrall is awesome), large numbers of songs (one of which heals), that are **** near unresistable (except on a nat20), that also regenerate, the usual bard buffs... its all good.

I've read a comment somewhere that if you're going virt there's no point maxing your CHR because if you can land CC spells effectively you may as well not bother with he Virt CC songs. I don't really understand the logic of that - presumably landing CC spells just gives you more options, doesn't it?

Not the end of the world - I'm also quite keen on the Spellsinger: lots of SP, caster buffs (and I know from my light monk: casters LOVE getting buffs specifically for them), UMD boosts... its all good too. Plus the Spellsinger is by all accounts (I've rarely encountered one but see above comments about maxing CHR) a more than competent CCer.

I know I'm not keen on the warchanter - I've got melee toons already, and while the ironskin buffs etc are brilliant, there's plenty of melee buffs out there anyway and the Bard gets access to the haste, blur, displacement etc regardless of PrE.

My likes and dislikes:

• I'm not interested in main- or even really off-healing.
• I love CC tactics (not that anyone will slow down long enough for you to use them but that's not the point)
• I like providing buffs, but like to contribute more directly (cc counts, so does direct damage). Little I hate more than piling into melee and seeing missmissmissmiss scrolling up my screen, and being relegated to buffing every five minutes and standing at the back the rest of the time. If the clear role of the eventual build is CC (so its standing at the back CCing and never even trying to get into melee) then that's fine. But I'd rather it was all or nothing, not a half-arsed attempt at both that doesn't excel in either.
• I'd like the feats I buy to mostly contribute to my bard-strengths, and not to have to sacrifice bard-strengths for heavy melee feat investments like TWF, or rely on tome usage to meet minimum requirements.
• I like self sufficiency, so I like the 2 rogue split - but if capstones are good or if its going to dilute the effectiveness of all the above, then I can definitely live without it.

Note: I'm not interested in whether the generally accepted view is that SS is better than Virt, because I already know the answer to that. I'm interested in, given my interests/likes/dislikes, which PrE is going to suit me best.

So which one for me? Virt or SS? Anything I haven't spotted for either PrE that could swing it?

Follow on questions: starting stats & level ups, and feat progressions? Enhancements and skill points I'm very comfortable in selecting, but those crucial stats and feats I really do have a hard time planning for.

[cyadra]

This may sound stupid, I know it was when I heard it a while ago, however CC in this game is not optimal on a bard. Its more a wizzy thing...and I didn't believe it until I tried one. But if you build a CC WF 18 wizzy/2 rogue it will fill your needs.

[Guilllotine]

Since you have come to the conclusion and answered your own question...SS. Yes, I know, Virts are fun, but they just aren't very compatible with the majority of players/parties and arcanes do the CC end-game satisfactorily. Not much else to it honestly.

[dunklezhan]

This may sound stupid, I know it was when I heard it a while ago, however CC in this game is not optimal on a bard. Its more a wizzy thing...and I didn't believe it until I tried one. But if you build a CC WF 18 wizzy/2 rogue it will fill your needs.

Not WF, but I do already have a wiz and a rog/wiz. But I also enjoy my bard. I just want to improve him overall. Thanks for the suggestion though!

Since you have come to the conclusion and answered your own question...SS. Yes, I know, Virts are fun, but they just aren't very compatible with the majority of players/parties and arcanes do the CC end-game satisfactorily. Not much else to it honestly.

Um... have I answered my own question? Where?

[Irinis]

My likes and dislikes:

1. I'm not interested in main- or even really off-healing.
2. I love CC tactics (not that anyone will slow down long enough for you to use them but that's not the point)
3. I like providing buffs, but like to contribute more directly (cc counts, so does direct damage). Little I hate more than piling into melee and seeing missmissmissmiss scrolling up my screen, and being relegated to buffing every five minutes and standing at the back the rest of the time. If the clear role of the eventual build is CC (so its standing at the back CCing and never even trying to get into melee) then that's fine. But I'd rather it was all or nothing, not a half-arsed attempt at both that doesn't excel in either.
4. I'd like the feats I buy to mostly contribute to my bard-strengths, and not to have to sacrifice bard-strengths for heavy melee feat investments like TWF, or rely on tome usage to meet minimum requirements.
5. I like self sufficiency, so I like the 2 rogue split - but if capstones are good or if its going to dilute the effectiveness of all the above, then I can definitely live without it.

Note: I'm not interested in whether the generally accepted view is that SS is better than Virt, because I already know the answer to that. I'm interested in, given my interests/likes/dislikes, which PrE is going to suit me best.

So which one for me? Virt or SS? Anything I haven't spotted for either PrE that could swing it?

1. Bards have no use as CC specialists in raids. You either build for raid healing or melee damage as a secondary focus because we're not given anything else to do than sing songs and look pretty.
2. See #1.
3. Virtuoso has the best song CC. SS has the best spell CC. Songs and melee, or songs and spells. It's a preference... but see #1.
4. If you're not going to heal at all, or not going to do spell CC, there's a few feats to spare for better melee. If you don't want melee at all, you're going to have to heal as secondary or be a piker who does nothing.
5. Spell CC on a Virtuoso is already 1 DC below Spellsinger. To lose the capstone on any spell CC build is a bad idea. To lose it on a song CC build doesn't matter.

To sum it up, you're asking for the impossible by asking to not heal, unless you never step foot in a raid, or build for melee. It's just the way Bards are designed by the devs. We have NO direct damage, and CC is useless against bosses.

A melee Bard can afford that 2-rogue splash better than a CC Bard.

I melee some on my CC Spellsinger but her secondary focus is definitely healing. I've had to push gear to the limits to do mediocre melee that wouldn't justify my spot in a party if I wasn't capable of adding in a variety of roles.

[voodoogroves]

1. Bards have no use as CC specialists in raids. You either build for raid healing or melee damage as a secondary focus because we're not given anything else to do than sing songs and look pretty.
2. See #1.
3. Virtuoso has the best song CC. SS has the best spell CC. Songs and melee, or songs and spells. It's a preference... but see #1.
4. If you're not going to heal at all, or not going to do spell CC, there's a few feats to spare for better melee. If you don't want melee at all, you're going to have to heal as secondary or be a piker who does nothing.
5. Spell CC on a Virtuoso is already 1 DC below Spellsinger. To lose the capstone on any spell CC build is a bad idea. To lose it on a song CC build doesn't matter.

To sum it up, you're asking for the impossible by asking to not heal, unless you never step foot in a raid, or build for melee. It's just the way Bards are designed by the devs. We have NO direct damage, and CC is useless against bosses.

A melee Bard can afford that 2-rogue splash better than a CC Bard.

I melee some on my CC Spellsinger but her secondary focus is definitely healing. I've had to push gear to the limits to do mediocre melee that wouldn't justify my spot in a party if I wasn't capable of adding in a variety of roles.

Put this post or a link to it on your bard thread. Very good summary.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Spellsinger, max sonic enhancements, Mad Lute, Quickened Maximized Empowered Greater Shouts for 400 damage.
/thread

[Aashrym]

If you are not into healing then virt is probably better for you.



You can toss the healing top up song and inspire courage for the group still, and even caper a few high will save mobs that can cause issues while the mage is casting mass hold monster and something nasty is coming thru.

You also still have a cheap motd/motm that isn't available to the mage.

Continue to rely on those songs for a CC contribution. They can help on the way to the parts you cannot CC.



If you don't want to play healer you will definitely need to go heavy on melee. You have very limited options when it comes to bosses. CC is not really much of an option and direct damage spells from a bard don't do a whole lot of damage.

That means str/con and combat feats. You mentioned wanting to spend feats on your bard strenghts, but there are no feats that apply those to songs. You really are applying feats to spells or to combat.

Splashing rogue gives you evasion and traps, and some extra damage personal. The capstone is meh for a melee bard, but the +1/+1 to your inspire courage would be nice for your group given you are not a war chanter. Either/or.

It sounds like you would prefer to splash rogue to me, and you do not need max levels for your CC songs.

I would also recommend going with 2 weapon fighting and aiming for a melee slot. This gets back to needing something to do when you meet bosses or other immune mobs. Otherwise you are back to buffing every 5 min.


This gives you quite a bit of self sufficiency and sounds like it meets the style you are looking for. A bard that isn't interested in healing might be a tough call but if you are a melee with self healing and song CC you are going similar to the war chanter with a bit less damage and a bit more CC and healing.

Irinis summarized it well.
Does that help in your decision making?

[Aashrym]

Spellsinger, max sonic enhancements, Mad Lute, Quickened Maximized Empowered Greater Shouts for 400 damage.
/thread

I play with it but compared to melee output or damage spells on a wizzie or sorc it's on the lower end of damage.

My spellsinger opens with it and maintains melee and/or healing after that. Toggling healing and a damage spell does eat through my SP faster than I care to burn it.

[sly_1]

You first have to decide what your ultimate goal is. Do you want to run endgame raids? Epic quests? Epic raids?

Long story short, can you max cha and have 1/2way decent cc endgame as a virt? Probably so, if you invest everything into feats and items to pump enchantment and cha (inc tomes) and throw every last point into cha after starting with 18-20 at character creation (so winding up with like 32+ cha). Keep in mind a pure lvl 20 ss is going to have a +3 dc advantage on spells over an 18/2 virt, out of the gate no virt will ever compete with the spell dc's of an ss.

The problem you have to consider is, what now does this max cha bard contribute beyond cc? no damage, decent buffs, that's it. So you are a cc/buffbot and nothing else. In epic quests this makes you a marginal add to the party, sure the cc is great if there's no one else in the party that can fill that role, but dropping a whole slot of dps *just* for cc is, imo, a waste. Espec. when you consider you only have individual hold spells no mass hold, bard cc in endgame pales compared to mass hold.

In the endgame, a bard that cannot contribute dps is worthless. More of a drag on the party than anything else.

Endgame in ddo is basically:

epics = cc is very helpful here, but you very much need cc + dps as the foes have thousands upon thousands of hp. cc alone doesn't cut it imo.

Raids: trash mobs can be cc'd but most raids nobody cares if the trash mobs get cc'd. the main deal in most endgame raids is dishing out massive dps to take down the big bad at the end with several thousand hp's. Bear in mind the red named is always immune to cc. Thus if all you are good for is cc when you get to that big bad, you are good for nothing.

[dunklezhan]

I've been unclear - when I say I'm not interested in healing, what I mean is I don't really want to have to spec for it, I don't want it to be my primary focus. Very much not: 'I won't do it, I won't I won't I won't!'

On to your other points (which I'm grateful to have, and can accept at face value, but I'm trying to understand too):

1. Bards have no use as CC specialists in raids. You either build for raid healing or melee damage as a secondary focus because we're not given anything else to do than sing songs and look pretty.
2. See #1.
3. Virtuoso has the best song CC. SS has the best spell CC. Songs and melee, or songs and spells. It's a preference... but see #1.
4. If you're not going to heal at all, or not going to do spell CC, there's a few feats to spare for better melee. If you don't want melee at all, you're going to have to heal as secondary or be a piker who does nothing.
5. Spell CC on a Virtuoso is already 1 DC below Spellsinger. To lose the capstone on any spell CC build is a bad idea. To lose it on a song CC build doesn't matter.

1 & 2 Why do bards have no CC use in raids? What is it that stops them? Fascinate and Enthrall are exceptionally good crowd control providing everyone is willing to work with them. Soundburst presumably works as well for a bard as it does for a cleric, which is pretty well. The dance spells seem to work pretty well too.

3. What exactly is the Spell Singer's best CC Spell? I wasn't aware SS got different spells as such - or were you just meaning the DC being higher makes whatever spell CC they do better generally?

4. Its not that I'm not going to melee, or not going to spell CC. What I was saying was I don't want each to suffer in trying to do both. Clearly if I went SS I'd go full-on CC spells and go near Melee only as a last resort. If I went Virt then... what? Are the feat requirements for worthwhile melee so intensive that my healing and spell CC would both be worthless? Is it that getting DCs even close to a Spell Singer would require such intensive feats that my healing and melee would be worthless? Are DCs 'close' to a Spell Singer 'enough'?

5. Cool. So do without a splash if you want a hope of competitive DCs on spells. If you don't want those DCs, then splash and make sure you spec fully into melee or healing. I get that. (yay! Something I understand right off the bat! I think?)

To sum it up, you're asking for the impossible by asking to not heal, unless you never step foot in a raid, or build for melee. It's just the way Bards are designed by the devs. We have NO direct damage, and CC is useless against bosses.

A melee Bard can afford that 2-rogue splash better than a CC Bard.

I melee some on my CC Spellsinger but her secondary focus is definitely healing. I've had to push gear to the limits to do mediocre melee that wouldn't justify my spot in a party if I wasn't capable of adding in a variety of roles.

To answer your first point there (and also go back to point 1 on your list): I rarely set foot in raids. Not never, and not won't but I certainly don't hit them often. Put it this way: I've been playing a year, my highest toon is a 15 and I've done TS 4 or 5 times tops and Chronoscope once (and even then not even remotely close to hitting Chrono at level). I just can't be bothered with all that flagging and cooldown nonsense, nor waiting around for a dozen other people to all be ready.

In that very limited experience I've not seen anything particularly different about the Tempest Spine or Chronoscope raids from a normal quest except for more hitpoints and damage output from the mobs, and more bosses, with 'rules' about how those boss fights work. Is there something about, say, Demon Queen, Titan or Dragon raid that stops bard CC working while Wiz CC works fine on the bosses? I thought CC type spells just don't work on bosses anyway, regardless of source? Are there no trash mobs? What am I missing here?

If you mean end game raids, well... I don't have much interest in that anyway. At end game I'll most likely be looking to do Epics for exactly as long as it takes to be able to get the necessary materials to TR or I might just give up and buy a Heart from the store. Maybe after life 3 I might spend more time at 20 rather than grinding up again, but in the meantime I've never ever found an endgame in an MMO that remotely interests me, I don't really see why DDO would be any different. So I'm not going to worry about it. If I find for some reason I really enjoy it when I get there, but I've gimped myself, then I'll TR and know better next time.

I'm happy not to be a melee bard - its clear from the responses that if you aren't a melee bard there is an expectation that you will be able to heal. So OK, I accept that. Healing it is (like I say, not interested, but not anti either).

Hope all this is making sense. I'm certainly getting the message that people recommend a pure SS over a pure Virt, I'm now just trying to really understand the whys of that.

I guess at the core I'm asking this:

Is it possible to go Virt and have effective spell DCs & healing (its a given that DCs will be 1 short of the SS on spells, but will they be effective as the character levels up), or would you end up having to skimp on the DCs in order to be an effective healer?

Or, in order to get the balance of effective CC & healing, do you really need to go SS?

Note I'm talking 'effective', not 'top level'. My definition of 'effective' is simply: will the spell CC work fairly reliably.

[Jaid314]

if you max cha, and stay pure bard, you should be able to get the same enchantment DCs as a sorcerer can. (+2 charisma and +2 enchantment DCs makes up for 3 spell levels that the sorc can get). if a sorc can work for CC (and they can), then so can a bard.

a spellsinger who chooses SF and GSF in enchantment will actually be ahead of the typical sorc in enchantment actually, would be my guess.

you'll be missing out on a few spells, of course, but the ones you have should be pretty much as effective as the typical sorc.

so you won't have mass hold monster, but you can still throw a dancing sphere. don't expect to be holding everything either, that will just drive you nuts. you might consider mass charm monster, mass suggestion (works on some targets that can't be charmed, oddly enough), dancing sphere, irresistible dance, hold monster, dominate person, crushing despair (a nice AOE debuff! functionally equivalent to a +2 DC if it works...)

all of those spells work as well as a sorcerer casting them if you stay pure bard. if you're a spellsinger, and you have both SF and GSF, you'll be three points above many sorcs, plus you can throw a crushing despair for an even better chance (and also helping everyone else, since that gives the melees a better chance to stunning blow/fist, trip, etc, plus it gives any caster a better chance to land a mass hold)

on a side note, i'm pretty sure crushing despair works even on raid bosses (i've seen it over the stormreaver's head if i'm not mistaken).

also, not sure what everyone else's experience has been, but on the bard i just started i was able to get max cha, respectable con, and iirc 14 strength. even if i focus entirely on charisma with my level-ups, throw on a full bard set of buffs and use a clicky of divine power and that should be able to land a decent hit against many targets. as much dps as a barbarian or rogue? no, obviously not. but it's going to be something.

also, there's something to be said for the role of "support melee". you don't really want the barbarian to be swinging a paralyzer (he has better options), but it's a pretty reasonable choice for a bard. same with cursespewing, destruction, etc. in these cases, it's not as important how much damage you do, it's a mere question of whether or not you hit at all.

[dunklezhan]

In response to Aashrym and Sly who posted before I did:

Sly, thanks for the explanation of raids/epics and why Bard CC isn't so great there. Really appreciate that, makes more sense now. If Bard CC isn't that great or appreciated at that level, then SS or Virt DCs don't make much of a difference at that point, do they? At that point as a Bard it's going to be all about how good a healer or melee you are in addition to your buffing abilities.

My ultimate goal is to be effective throughout the level ranges, particularly in the 10-20 bracket. On reaching 20, my goal is to not be a total drag on everyone else in the time it takes me to TR into something else. At this point, I don't really care if that is because I've got decent healing or decent melee potential.

Aashrym - so for virt, melee/CC Virt is reasonably viable as well as a healing/CC Virt?

In terms of melee (if I was to go melee) what about THF instead of TWF? It's a little easier on the feats I think isn't it? If I didn't go all the way into the THF line (e.g. if I just bought the first feat) then presumably I'd do reasonably decent single target DPS (which lowers the chance of unexpectedly drawing aggro from elsewhere), and I wouldn't have to invest quite so heavily into str - and if I avoid the TWF line then I don't need to heavily invest in Str AND in Dex, which frees up points for Chr, Con and Int (the latter really just for skillpoints, since I'd want to max out hide/move silent, UMD, Perform, Jump and Balance and a rank or two in tumble probably - even so Int 12, maybe 14 would easily cover it)

If I went Healing instead of Melee, other than empower healing, what would be the recommended feats to take? Spell focus ench & spell pen feats?

This is really helpful folks, thanks for your continued interest.

[Aashrym]

In response to Aashrym and Sly who posted before I did:

Sly, thanks for the explanation of raids/epics and why Bard CC isn't so great there. Really appreciate that, makes more sense now. If Bard CC isn't that great or appreciated at that level, then SS or Virt DCs don't make much of a difference at that point, do they? At that point as a Bard it's going to be all about how good a healer or melee you are in addition to your buffing abilities.

My ultimate goal is to be effective throughout the level ranges, particularly in the 10-20 bracket. On reaching 20, my goal is to not be a total drag on everyone else in the time it takes me to TR into something else. At this point, I don't really care if that is because I've got decent healing or decent melee potential.

Aashrym - so for virt, melee/CC Virt is reasonably viable as well as a healing/CC Virt?

In terms of melee (if I was to go melee) what about THF instead of TWF? It's a little easier on the feats I think isn't it? If I didn't go all the way into the THF line (e.g. if I just bought the first feat) then presumably I'd do reasonably decent single target DPS (which lowers the chance of unexpectedly drawing aggro from elsewhere), and I wouldn't have to invest quite so heavily into str - and if I avoid the TWF line then I don't need to heavily invest in Str AND in Dex, which frees up points for Chr, Con and Int (the latter really just for skillpoints, since I'd want to max out hide/move silent, UMD, Perform, Jump and Balance and a rank or two in tumble probably - even so Int 12, maybe 14 would easily cover it)

If I went Healing instead of Melee, other than empower healing, what would be the recommended feats to take? Spell focus ench & spell pen feats?

This is really helpful folks, thanks for your continued interest.

I posted something similar before if you want to modify it.

Here are some links for more info Irinis was working on that are pretty recent and helpful.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275472
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...31&postcount=5

And here is the basis for what type I'm thinking you might like with a few modifications. It's the classic rocker build.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=249865

What I would suggest based on what you are looking at is a virt version of the classic rocker.

FEATS

1: Toughness
1: Extend Spell
3: Negotiator (replace with 2 Handed Fighting after extra song IV is gained)
6: Power Attack
9: Maximize Spell
12: Improved Critical: Slashing (or piercing)
15: Improved 2 Handed Fighting
18: Greater 2 Handed Fighting

28 point: 18 STR; 8 DEX; 14 CON; 8 INT; 8 WIS; 14 CHA

If you have a 32 point build place the CON at 16 to start. Level ups go to STR.

IMPORTANT SPELLS:
(1): Focusing Chant, Master's Touch, Feather Fall
(2): Blur, Rage, Glitterdust, Invisibility
(3): Haste, Good Hope, Displacement
(4): Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Cure Critical Wounds
(5): Greater Heroism, Mass Suggestion, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Greater Dispel Magic
(6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Hero's Feast


Going this route is heavy on melee. The CC spells will suffer from less spell DC than some bards but the strong points are buffing and song CC going virt with maximize spell and sustaining song for healing.

You can change power attack, 2 handed fighting, improved 2 handed fighting, and greater 2 handed fighting in for Heighten, Quicken, SF: Enchantment, and Improved SF: Enchantment then swap starting STR and CHA with level ups going into CHA for spells. This would be more caster oriented.

Not necessarily in that order.

You would be relying on the virt CC abilities heavily either way for most of the CC with spell points going to buffs or burst healing. If you decide to go more caster Otto's Sphere of Dancing and Hold Monster become more important to look at.

I'm a fan of the classic rocker build and modifying a virt for it seems to work pretty well for a bit stronger CC and healing over the damage.

I listed 2 handed weapon fighting in the above version to save on Dex and take advantage of the fact that splash damage won't automatically break enthrall and have a high proc rate on secondary effects.

You won't have the SP of a spell singer but this does give you melee options and has a focus on you songs. There is a version included to make him more caster bard. Adding mind fog to the spell list will actually go a long way even with the 14 CHA and CC spells if you are not raiding or going epic. Maximize is included if you need to pump out higher cures.

The real issues with bard CC, even tho it does have it's advantages, include comparison to wail of the banshee and mass hold monster either pre or post epic, and blanket immunities. The DC's are strong and the spells are useful, but wizzie spells will win out in comparison. Instant death pre epic is better than mezz/control, and in epic with the immunities mass hold monster provides CC and damage more efficiently than bard spells.

The build above has improved crit, 2HW line, and power attack. Relying on songs for CC gives you the advantage to apply more feats to melee. That's how I imagine virtuoso of the sword is meant to be played. The sword part has to fit in there somewhere

Does that help?

[Jaid314]

i feel the need to repeat a point here that i made in passing:

no, bards don't have anything that grants autocrits to multiple targets in their spell list. that being said, if the caster is the only one bringing crowd control to the party, then it's time for you to leave that party and find a new one. stunning blow is a single feat that provides great results to any fighter, barbarian, and even to some extent paladins. even a rogue can get stunning blow up to the point where it isn't completely useless in epics. monks can make great use of either stunning blow or stunning fist, depending on the build. if none of your melee types have the ability to apply any form of crowd control, and are instead completely dependant on a caster to mass hold... odds are good that the group you're in are the problem, not you.

i mean, if you're to be expected to contribute to epic, and make sacrifices to accomplish that, then so should everyone else. the caster should not be the sole source of hold/stun/etc effects, and if the group is expecting you to be their sole source of crowd control, you should probably run away screaming unless you're doing an extremely easy epic run. in fact, even then, you may wish to consider looking elsewhere... i've been in both kinds of groups, and i can honestly say that i would never want to be *any* sort of caster in a group where they think that the caster is supposed to handle all the crowd control while the melees don't have to do anything to help in that area.

[dunklezhan]

*groans*

I'd forgotten Irinis' diva guide. And it's so good. And has most of the answers I needed already in it.

This thread's been really useful though for furthering my understanding - Aashrym I like the build you've posted although I'm still half inclined to keep the skill focus perform or negiotiator to save on APs, and play human so i can take THF at the start (only half inclined mind you - I might take THF at the start, and instead swap out the skill focus for a spell focus once I have Extra SongIV, which will give me a much needed DC boost).

Maybe also drop Str to 17 to start so I can pump CHR a little higher (I have 32 pt build so I can pump CON as suggested). I can still put Level ups to Str to qualify for the next THF feats, and end game only be losing +1 Str & Damage.


Do those modifications (THF at start for extra human feat, Swap Skill focus for spell focus, Str starting stat changes) sound ok, or am I storing up problems?

Also, are there actually any 2 hander piercing weapons? I'm struggling to think of any, am I missing something obvious? If not, then surely its not a 'choice' as to which Imp Crit I buy - it would have to be slashing.

Edit: missed that the suggested build already WAS human, so taking THF at start pushes extend further up, no room for spell focus unless I drop the ITHW and GTHF. Which I actually don't mind doing too much - more glancing blows are great and all, but Melee is not supposed to be the primary focus. I'd rather the various CC measures mentioned by Jaid actually land. I also can't get CON to 16 and do what I think I need to for spells & combat, so I've left Str at 18 to start to push through those early levels and pumped one level up into CHR to push it to 16 for more reliable DCs by the time I hit the Houses.

So if I were to do this, what do you think:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Major Tom
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 612 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    22
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             15                    16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    22
Haggle                6                    26
Hide                  3                    22
Jump                  7                    27
Move Silently         3                    22
Perform               6                    26
Tumble                1                     1
Use Magic Device      6                    26

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR

[Aashrym]

*groans*

I'd forgotten Irinis' diva guide. And it's so good. And has most of the answers I needed already in it.

This thread's been really useful though for furthering my understanding - Aashrym I like the build you've posted although I'm still half inclined to keep the skill focus perform or negiotiator to save on APs, and play human so i can take THF at the start (only half inclined mind you - I might take THF at the start, and instead swap out the skill focus for a spell focus once I have Extra SongIV, which will give me a much needed DC boost).

Maybe also drop Str to 17 to start so I can pump CHR a little higher (I have 32 pt build so I can pump CON as suggested). I can still put Level ups to Str to qualify for the next THF feats, and end game only be losing +1 Str & Damage.


Do those modifications (THF at start for extra human feat, Swap Skill focus for spell focus, Str starting stat changes) sound ok, or am I storing up problems?

Also, are there actually any 2 hander piercing weapons? I'm struggling to think of any, am I missing something obvious? If not, then surely its not a 'choice' as to which Imp Crit I buy - it would have to be slashing.

Slashing is the way to go. I added the piercing because you might have wanted to change from 2 handed fighting still. It was an after thought where I didn't remember to add why I entered the piercing crit reason. d'oh.

The build I listed is human. 2 feats at level 1. Toughness and extend.

I actually have that CHA higher than I would build it, for ppl who want to use some spell CC and a few more SP. A virt needs to take bard CHA II and a +6 CHA isn't that hard to acquire. Starting at an 8 CHA will get you level 6 spells, 6 CHA can do it with the capstone.

The CHA 14 makes it a bit easier at lower levels but it's not really that necessary. If you rely on motd, enthrall, capering, and weapon proc's you will do fine for CC without the spells. I left some CC spells in for easier targets.

You can go with less STR and more CHA if you want. I wouldn't spend the feat or more CHA for spells on a build that is meant to rely on the song DC's personally.

[dunklezhan]

The build I listed is human. 2 feats at level 1. Toughness and extend.

spotted that and edited while you were posting.

You can go with less STR and more CHA if you want. I wouldn't spend the feat or more CHA for spells on a build that is meant to rely on the song DC's personally.

Meant to, but I'd still like to have options. Are the DC boosts I put in from the feats actually going to make a difference? If not I was tinkering with the idea of quicken and heighten instead. If that or the DC boosts are still a waste of time... then its back to THF I guess

[Aashrym]

*groans*

I'd forgotten Irinis' diva guide. And it's so good. And has most of the answers I needed already in it.

This thread's been really useful though for furthering my understanding - Aashrym I like the build you've posted although I'm still half inclined to keep the skill focus perform or negiotiator to save on APs, and play human so i can take THF at the start (only half inclined mind you - I might take THF at the start, and instead swap out the skill focus for a spell focus once I have Extra SongIV, which will give me a much needed DC boost).

Maybe also drop Str to 17 to start so I can pump CHR a little higher (I have 32 pt build so I can pump CON as suggested). I can still put Level ups to Str to qualify for the next THF feats, and end game only be losing +1 Str & Damage.


Do those modifications (THF at start for extra human feat, Swap Skill focus for spell focus, Str starting stat changes) sound ok, or am I storing up problems?

Also, are there actually any 2 hander piercing weapons? I'm struggling to think of any, am I missing something obvious? If not, then surely its not a 'choice' as to which Imp Crit I buy - it would have to be slashing.

Edit: missed that the suggested build already WAS human, so taking THF at start pushes extend further up, no room for spell focus unless I drop the ITHW and GTHF. Which I actually don't mind doing too much - more glancing blows are great and all, but Melee is not supposed to be the primary focus. I'd rather the various CC measures mentioned by Jaid actually land. I also can't get CON to 16 and do what I think I need to for spells & combat, so I've left Str at 18 to start to push through those early levels and pumped one level up into CHR to push it to 16 for more reliable DCs by the time I hit the Houses.

So if I were to do this, what do you think:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Major Tom
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Bard) 
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 612 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    22
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             15                    16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    22
Haggle                6                    26
Hide                  3                    22
Jump                  7                    27
Move Silently         3                    22
Perform               6                    26
Tumble                1                     1
Use Magic Device      6                    26

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR

I don't think this looks too bad. I'm not a fan of spending the feats on spell CC for a more melee build. The idea for the THF feats isn't so much the damage but the increased proc rate on your weapons effects on splash damage.

[Aashrym]

spotted that and edited while you were posting.



Meant to, but I'd still like to have options. Are the DC boosts I put in from the feats actually going to make a difference? If not I was tinkering with the idea of quicken and heighten instead. If that or the DC boosts are still a waste of time... then its back to THF I guess

The feats will help with your dc's and that will help land more of the CC spells. You can go strong on CC for spells if that's what you really want, but IMO the song focus for a virt and melee focus for feats would do more for the character.

You will swing a weapon that will splash hit mobs for effects much much more than you will use spells for CC if you are using the points for buffing and possibly healing. That is where the strength is. Enthrall around you, no auto break, swing away and proc all you can, trigger procs before enthrall does break. Still have bard buffs and healing. And you can dance beholders at range.

On that note, build it how you want it, lol. That's just my advice to see if I can help with building what you are looking for.